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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless FGC
@AK Harold not a full list, but fairly certain Sub, Skarlet, Jax, Kabal and Scorpion, among others, can dash after blocking the first hit. It MAY need to be a flawless block but if its close skulls at point blank range, a helluva lot of people can get past it even without FB
I'm pretty sure properly spaces ground skulls are safe and can't be dash through after first hit b anyone. If the GS is placed on the very front tip of their foot it catches them during the dash Even Noob, Sub and Scorpion who could before.
S3U2xxGroundSkulls Amp is 0 on block but if the second hit is FB then its -21 and punishable by a handful.

To be clear I used Shang up until a few weeks ago exclexclusively and I felt he didn't need a damage nerf on Ground Eruption but given that more than 6 of his bad matchups lost damage from 2-4% I think he will be fine. He gets about 16% from fullscreen using GS alone (1bar) more than 40% on D2 KB and most other KB's do 30%.
F24 combos do about 24% and s3U2 combos do about 28% so he isn't hurting that much from it. One amped Corpse Drop should make up the difference. He gets 3% chip from Ground Skulls now and about the same from meterless Corpse Drop so he is still taking a chunk on thier way in.
His Soulsteal combos do more than his regular combos so I feel he has more incentive to do it now.
Still has above average Get off Me tools, Footsie and top 10 zoning.
I think he is around low A Tier but its far to early and I haven't grinded MU's I'm just speculating by comparing tools. Take into account many characters got nerfed harder than Shang and even lost the same amount of damage if not more.
But I will say he should get at least 3% back on his combos at least his F24 & 114 kombos. He honestly didn't deserve it. He can lock certain characters up with GS's but there where ways to micro dash in if you timed right and had fast dash and advancing moves(Cassie B24)and then there are counter zoning tools that shut it down (Nightwolf Parry TP, Kollector TP, Scorpion HP, Noob TP, Jacqui DP, Liu Kang Flykick, Sub Zero Slide, Shangs GS reversal, Cassie Shoulder etc)
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes

Really curious as to what MUs Spellmaster would be preferred over Warlock
It's definitely better than people give credit for but he may have a couple buns matchups with characters who are good at dealing with Flames, but then again, if they are good against flames they are probably good against Ground Inferno. Nerfing Scorpion's teleport was a huge help for what may have been his worst matchup. Now their damage is on somewhat equal footing, Soultaker/Spellmaster probably has a little more in the corner and Warlock is better in midscreen there.

Also, these aren't two complementary and similar variations like many characters have. These variations are completely different. It's hard to compare and they offer two different playstyles. I like to think of Warlock as a proactive zoner and Soultaker as a mid range space control character. But you have to get the experience with both variations to make good comments on MUs IMO and I certainly don't have it for Warlock.

I think you need more MU experience with Soultaker as well. You need to know what projectiles BF1 will trade with and at what ranges, you need to know what BF1 amp can go under, you need to know who can punish Soul Jar on knockdowns, you need to know who can punish Flames and at what distances, you need to know who has good reversals after Flames, you need to know spacing of flames on block after different strings, etc. Warlock by comparison is easier to get off the ground floor with his effective zoning.
 
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Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Seems much easier to jail S3 and S4 from a D4 on hit now, depending on range you may need to dash. Particularly nice for Soultaker as 3U2~BF1 cancel is safe as long as you aren't in point blank range.
 
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PreNerf_

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@AK Harold not a full list, but fairly certain Sub, Skarlet, Jax, Kabal and Scorpion, among others, can dash after blocking the first hit. It MAY need to be a flawless block but if its close skulls at point blank range, a helluva lot of people can get past it even without FB
Including noob, there are a few more. And most of the ones that can't dash can punish it anyways with a special move or on FB. You can't just wildly throw out f24 gs or your just going to get more damage than reward and the only way ground skulls can keep you safe with most of the cast is at Mac range by barely hitting the front of their toes. If you get the range down then it can be a great tool, very oppressive for people that don't understand how to get past it. For those that do. You have to back dash alot and be careful when you throw skulls. It's always a mix up on the different projectiles. If you know that your opponent is going to rush in with a dash or a move then the a straight skull. On hit it's plus 16 so it sets you up for many of his moves. So if you get one on hit then you can move in, you have to play around and see which moves at which range. Whole new game now, so You have to keep extremely safe with him now. Going for his f243 kb for damage in rounds that need the extra damage and you need the damage from his soul steal. Only problem with that is that, it's just like waiting to get punished when you turn back if you don't get a touch on your opponent. There are setups that i have for most of the characters. But with out a touch it's extremely risky to use soul steal. They should have made his change back blockable, better players will time their combos so that when he changes back he gets punished twice and even if don't get hit and your setups didn't work, you are still susceptable to a free combo on the opponents part. So essentially soul steal is more needed than it was pre patch, but that could also mean sudden death for shang with any combo they decide to use that's thirty percent, plus another 30 percent combo.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Seems much easier to jail S3 and S4 from a D4 on hit now, depending on range you may need to dash. Particularly nice for Soultaker as 3U2~BF1 cancel is safe as long as you in point blank range.
While I'm happy that ST only got a little scratch in this latest patch, if only they did something to Soultaker's SS cancels.

Boy! We would be in heaven lol
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
While I'm happy that ST only got a little scratch in this latest patch, if only they did something to Soultaker's SS cancels.

Boy! We would be in heaven lol
Can we please stop pretending that losing a fifth of your damage for no reason and getting nothing in return is "just a scratch"?

Playing so far I can safely say that most of the cast flat-out does more damage for less effort, and the few characters that do less damage than Shang on average have very good tools to open people up.

At this point Shang is a loyalist character. Somebody wants to prove me wrong, show me data. I bet his use % is way low.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
Can we please stop pretending that losing a fifth of your damage for no reason and getting nothing in return is "just a scratch"?

Playing so far I can safely say that most of the cast flat-out does more damage for less effort, and the few characters that do less damage than Shang on average have very good tools to open people up.

At this point Shang is a loyalist character. Somebody wants to prove me wrong, show me data. I bet his use % is way low.
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol lets not pretend his dmg was "normal" prepatch.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol
Right, I had no idea Shang's jump kick were unblockable and could hit you anywhere on screen. Also immune to AA's I suppose?
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
Right, I had no idea Shang's jump kick were unblockable and could hit you anywhere on screen. Also immune to AA's I suppose?
Shangs jk is one of the best and many ppl try to AA it, so yeah u get alot of random jk's to hit
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Shangs jk is one of the best and many ppl try to AA it, so yeah u get alot of random jk's to hit
So because they can't AA/walk back punish, Shang's damage had to be gutted. Gotcha.

Maybe jumpkicks are the problem. Literally every character gets easy, high damage confirms off of jumpkicks. So that can't be the reason.

Yeah, no. I'm gonna go with knee-jerk nerf. On stream Paulo gave a very vague "we have data" to explain how certain decisions are made. Shang barely saw tournament play and was also released two months later. What data exactly?
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
@Agilaz Ggs earlier in KL.

I just got paid from my new job and bought the DLC, I’ve been trying Shang for like 2 days now, and I don’t really understand what he brings to the table that Cetrion doesn’t do better. Now that his damage is nerfed, I really don’t understand. I’m happy to be able to lab him now, but I need some help with how to enjoy playing this character and what to abuse.
 
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Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
TL;DR: Shang has a considerably more unfavourable risk/reward game. Pre-patch damage was good and also necessary cause people NEEDED TO FEAR IT. Now that they don't they can get in your face for way lower risk, and Shang loses up close against most characters.

There is no reasonable explanation for this nerf, just this arbitrary idea that Shang is a zoner, and as a zoner, he should not have damage off..his zoning tool?

(Shang being a zoner is also debatable btw. He gets outzoner by plenty of other characters that aren't even zoners, go figure.)
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
Additionaly, some people here are trying to convince me that Shang is perfectly fine and not bad at all.

I really want to agree, but the LACK OF SHANG PLAYERS shows me that that is not the case. After all, why would people actively avoid playing a good character?

Before Dave comes in here and yells at me again, yes, he has tools, yes he has frames. But if you can make 7 mistakes before you die and I can only make 2 or 3, that's seriously fucking skewed.
 
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol lets not pretend his dmg was "normal" prepatch.
What should I be doing after a jump kick connects? I don't know the optimal combo.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
I’m happy to be able to lab him now, but I need some help with how to enjoy playing this character and what to abuse.
1. F3/F4 mix. F3 is an Overhead but -7
( even though it's -7 you're pretty much guaranteed a Flawless block Up attack if your opponent decide to press a button afterwards). F4 is a High and its +5, so you can do alot with that.

2. Strike/Throw mindgame. B1, F2, S3, just to name a few can be use as staggers that leads to pretty decent block strings (B112/B1D2, F242/F243 & S3U2D2). Oh! Did i mention they have a low and overhead mix in as well.

3. Zoning (if you are playing Warlock). What can I say other then his Ground Skull is basically a punisher, launcher and anti-air roll up in one special move. What compliments that, is his corpse drop which can be Amplified to hit low ( naturally it hits overhead) and his Fire Skull.

I can go into more specifics stuff but hopefully this can kind of get you an idea of Shang Tsung.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
The downplaying is real lol.
Man show me proof I'm wrong or stop talking. I don't really care about your opinion at this point because a) you don't even play Shang seriously and b) it's basic math. Less damage = your opponent literally loses less life when they make a mistake = they can make more mistakes. Basic logic doesn't stop existing simply because you don't like it.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
Man show me proof I'm wrong or stop talking. I don't really care about your opinion at this point because a) you don't even play Shang seriously and b) it's basic math. Less damage = your opponent literally loses less life when they make a mistake = they can make more mistakes. Basic logic doesn't stop existing simply because you don't like it.
I get what your saying but you make it look like shang does less damage now then jade did.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
1. F3/F4 mix. F3 is an Overhead but -7
( even though it's -7 you're pretty much guaranteed a Flawless block Up attack if your opponent decide to press a button afterwards). F4 is a High and its +5, so you can do alot with that.

2. Strike/Throw mindgame. B1, F2, S3, just to name a few can be use as staggers that leads to pretty decent block strings (B112/B1D2, F242/F243 & S3U2D2). Oh! Did i mention they have a low and overhead mix in as well.

3. Zoning (if you are playing Warlock). What can I say other then his Ground Skull is basically a punisher, launcher and anti-air roll up in one special move. What compliments that, is his corpse drop which can be Amplified to hit low ( naturally it hits overhead) and his Fire Skull.

I can go into more specifics stuff but hopefully this can kind of get you an idea of Shang Tsung.
Yeah, please go more in depth. F3/4 seems pretty risky considering f4 is a high and I couldn’t find anything that jailed it, and F3 causes a kd. What does Shang do for Oki? Is s3 his best punish? 114 seems stubby for a lot of things. I saw f2 is -3 and that’s sweet for the FB counter poke meta, B1 is nice and staggering that leads to getting the KB more, Id assume. S3 as a stagger sorta boggles me though, I couldnt get it to jail off d1 or d3, but I was probably not timing it well enough. Where’s the low oh mix tho? I need that.

Aside from that, yeah, his zoning is pretty plain to see. Reminds me of my time playing Zonya with Corpse Drop replacing Turret, and Skull to replace rings, but Up Skulls replaces being able to kill my opponent.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
I get what your saying but you make it look like shang does less damage now then jade did.
But this line of thinking is odd, too, no? I want to play Shang and am trying to learn him, i don’t have a dog in this race, but Id like to see you two have a rational argument. I’m on the fence, I think lowered damage really hurts Shang, BUT I know his playstyle hasn’t changed at all and he can still control the screen in certain matchups. But ~6% less per hit is a fucking huge deal. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be.
 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
But this line of thinking is odd, too, no? I want to play Shang and am trying to learn him, i don’t have a dog in this race, but Id like to see you two have a rational argument. I’m on the fence, I think lowered damage really hurts Shang, BUT I know his plystyle hasn’t changed at all and he can still control the screen in certain matchups. But ~6% less per hit is a fucking huge deal. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be.
rely more on his normals , they're actually really damn good. his zoning is everything.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Before Dave comes in here and yells at me again, yes, he has tools, yes he has frames. But if you can make 7 mistakes before you die and I can only make 2 or 3, that's seriously fucking skewed.
"7 mistakes" is an exaggeration considering all combos outside of a far EX ground eruption result in at least 25% of damage.

I have already mentioned how all previous top tier characters received damage reductions, some of which are not necessarily related to increased damage scaling in combos. Erron Black, for example, has lost some combo potential because of increased frames on fatal blow, scud shot cancels, and d+1 while Geras has lost a 50/50 mix up from his jab string, which will surely impact his overall damage output.