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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Seems much easier to jail S3 and S4 from a D4 on hit now, depending on range you may need to dash. Particularly nice for Soultaker as 3U2~BF1 cancel is safe as long as you aren't in point blank range.
 
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PreNerf_

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@AK Harold not a full list, but fairly certain Sub, Skarlet, Jax, Kabal and Scorpion, among others, can dash after blocking the first hit. It MAY need to be a flawless block but if its close skulls at point blank range, a helluva lot of people can get past it even without FB
Including noob, there are a few more. And most of the ones that can't dash can punish it anyways with a special move or on FB. You can't just wildly throw out f24 gs or your just going to get more damage than reward and the only way ground skulls can keep you safe with most of the cast is at Mac range by barely hitting the front of their toes. If you get the range down then it can be a great tool, very oppressive for people that don't understand how to get past it. For those that do. You have to back dash alot and be careful when you throw skulls. It's always a mix up on the different projectiles. If you know that your opponent is going to rush in with a dash or a move then the a straight skull. On hit it's plus 16 so it sets you up for many of his moves. So if you get one on hit then you can move in, you have to play around and see which moves at which range. Whole new game now, so You have to keep extremely safe with him now. Going for his f243 kb for damage in rounds that need the extra damage and you need the damage from his soul steal. Only problem with that is that, it's just like waiting to get punished when you turn back if you don't get a touch on your opponent. There are setups that i have for most of the characters. But with out a touch it's extremely risky to use soul steal. They should have made his change back blockable, better players will time their combos so that when he changes back he gets punished twice and even if don't get hit and your setups didn't work, you are still susceptable to a free combo on the opponents part. So essentially soul steal is more needed than it was pre patch, but that could also mean sudden death for shang with any combo they decide to use that's thirty percent, plus another 30 percent combo.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Seems much easier to jail S3 and S4 from a D4 on hit now, depending on range you may need to dash. Particularly nice for Soultaker as 3U2~BF1 cancel is safe as long as you in point blank range.
While I'm happy that ST only got a little scratch in this latest patch, if only they did something to Soultaker's SS cancels.

Boy! We would be in heaven lol
 

Agilaz

It has begun
While I'm happy that ST only got a little scratch in this latest patch, if only they did something to Soultaker's SS cancels.

Boy! We would be in heaven lol
Can we please stop pretending that losing a fifth of your damage for no reason and getting nothing in return is "just a scratch"?

Playing so far I can safely say that most of the cast flat-out does more damage for less effort, and the few characters that do less damage than Shang on average have very good tools to open people up.

At this point Shang is a loyalist character. Somebody wants to prove me wrong, show me data. I bet his use % is way low.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Can we please stop pretending that losing a fifth of your damage for no reason and getting nothing in return is "just a scratch"?

Playing so far I can safely say that most of the cast flat-out does more damage for less effort, and the few characters that do less damage than Shang on average have very good tools to open people up.

At this point Shang is a loyalist character. Somebody wants to prove me wrong, show me data. I bet his use % is way low.
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol lets not pretend his dmg was "normal" prepatch.
 

Agilaz

It has begun
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol
Right, I had no idea Shang's jump kick were unblockable and could hit you anywhere on screen. Also immune to AA's I suppose?
 

Agilaz

It has begun
Shangs jk is one of the best and many ppl try to AA it, so yeah u get alot of random jk's to hit
So because they can't AA/walk back punish, Shang's damage had to be gutted. Gotcha.

Maybe jumpkicks are the problem. Literally every character gets easy, high damage confirms off of jumpkicks. So that can't be the reason.

Yeah, no. I'm gonna go with knee-jerk nerf. On stream Paulo gave a very vague "we have data" to explain how certain decisions are made. Shang barely saw tournament play and was also released two months later. What data exactly?
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
@Agilaz Ggs earlier in KL.

I just got paid from my new job and bought the DLC, I’ve been trying Shang for like 2 days now, and I don’t really understand what he brings to the table that Cetrion doesn’t do better. Now that his damage is nerfed, I really don’t understand. I’m happy to be able to lab him now, but I need some help with how to enjoy playing this character and what to abuse.
 
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Agilaz

It has begun
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
TL;DR: Shang has a considerably more unfavourable risk/reward game. Pre-patch damage was good and also necessary cause people NEEDED TO FEAR IT. Now that they don't they can get in your face for way lower risk, and Shang loses up close against most characters.

There is no reasonable explanation for this nerf, just this arbitrary idea that Shang is a zoner, and as a zoner, he should not have damage off..his zoning tool?

(Shang being a zoner is also debatable btw. He gets outzoner by plenty of other characters that aren't even zoners, go figure.)
 

Agilaz

It has begun
Real talk, I really do want to understand the other side of this argument about ST being trash or unable to compete on a high level because of this damage nerf.

Why do you guys feel like this nerf is so significant to his gameplan?
Additionaly, some people here are trying to convince me that Shang is perfectly fine and not bad at all.

I really want to agree, but the LACK OF SHANG PLAYERS shows me that that is not the case. After all, why would people actively avoid playing a good character?

Before Dave comes in here and yells at me again, yes, he has tools, yes he has frames. But if you can make 7 mistakes before you die and I can only make 2 or 3, that's seriously fucking skewed.
 
So getting 300 dmg from a random jumpkick easy hitconfirmable is normal damage? 300-350 for 1meter is normal damage for a zoner after any hit? Come on now lets calm down lol lets not pretend his dmg was "normal" prepatch.
What should I be doing after a jump kick connects? I don't know the optimal combo.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
I’m happy to be able to lab him now, but I need some help with how to enjoy playing this character and what to abuse.
1. F3/F4 mix. F3 is an Overhead but -7
( even though it's -7 you're pretty much guaranteed a Flawless block Up attack if your opponent decide to press a button afterwards). F4 is a High and its +5, so you can do alot with that.

2. Strike/Throw mindgame. B1, F2, S3, just to name a few can be use as staggers that leads to pretty decent block strings (B112/B1D2, F242/F243 & S3U2D2). Oh! Did i mention they have a low and overhead mix in as well.

3. Zoning (if you are playing Warlock). What can I say other then his Ground Skull is basically a punisher, launcher and anti-air roll up in one special move. What compliments that, is his corpse drop which can be Amplified to hit low ( naturally it hits overhead) and his Fire Skull.

I can go into more specifics stuff but hopefully this can kind of get you an idea of Shang Tsung.
 

Agilaz

It has begun
The downplaying is real lol.
Man show me proof I'm wrong or stop talking. I don't really care about your opinion at this point because a) you don't even play Shang seriously and b) it's basic math. Less damage = your opponent literally loses less life when they make a mistake = they can make more mistakes. Basic logic doesn't stop existing simply because you don't like it.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Man show me proof I'm wrong or stop talking. I don't really care about your opinion at this point because a) you don't even play Shang seriously and b) it's basic math. Less damage = your opponent literally loses less life when they make a mistake = they can make more mistakes. Basic logic doesn't stop existing simply because you don't like it.
I get what your saying but you make it look like shang does less damage now then jade did.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
1. F3/F4 mix. F3 is an Overhead but -7
( even though it's -7 you're pretty much guaranteed a Flawless block Up attack if your opponent decide to press a button afterwards). F4 is a High and its +5, so you can do alot with that.

2. Strike/Throw mindgame. B1, F2, S3, just to name a few can be use as staggers that leads to pretty decent block strings (B112/B1D2, F242/F243 & S3U2D2). Oh! Did i mention they have a low and overhead mix in as well.

3. Zoning (if you are playing Warlock). What can I say other then his Ground Skull is basically a punisher, launcher and anti-air roll up in one special move. What compliments that, is his corpse drop which can be Amplified to hit low ( naturally it hits overhead) and his Fire Skull.

I can go into more specifics stuff but hopefully this can kind of get you an idea of Shang Tsung.
Yeah, please go more in depth. F3/4 seems pretty risky considering f4 is a high and I couldn’t find anything that jailed it, and F3 causes a kd. What does Shang do for Oki? Is s3 his best punish? 114 seems stubby for a lot of things. I saw f2 is -3 and that’s sweet for the FB counter poke meta, B1 is nice and staggering that leads to getting the KB more, Id assume. S3 as a stagger sorta boggles me though, I couldnt get it to jail off d1 or d3, but I was probably not timing it well enough. Where’s the low oh mix tho? I need that.

Aside from that, yeah, his zoning is pretty plain to see. Reminds me of my time playing Zonya with Corpse Drop replacing Turret, and Skull to replace rings, but Up Skulls replaces being able to kill my opponent.
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
I get what your saying but you make it look like shang does less damage now then jade did.
But this line of thinking is odd, too, no? I want to play Shang and am trying to learn him, i don’t have a dog in this race, but Id like to see you two have a rational argument. I’m on the fence, I think lowered damage really hurts Shang, BUT I know his playstyle hasn’t changed at all and he can still control the screen in certain matchups. But ~6% less per hit is a fucking huge deal. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be.
 
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Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
But this line of thinking is odd, too, no? I want to play Shang and am trying to learn him, i don’t have a dog in this race, but Id like to see you two have a rational argument. I’m on the fence, I think lowered damage really hurts Shang, BUT I know his plystyle hasn’t changed at all and he can still control the screen in certain matchups. But ~6% less per hit is a fucking huge deal. I don’t see how it wouldn’t be.
rely more on his normals , they're actually really damn good. his zoning is everything.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Before Dave comes in here and yells at me again, yes, he has tools, yes he has frames. But if you can make 7 mistakes before you die and I can only make 2 or 3, that's seriously fucking skewed.
"7 mistakes" is an exaggeration considering all combos outside of a far EX ground eruption result in at least 25% of damage.

I have already mentioned how all previous top tier characters received damage reductions, some of which are not necessarily related to increased damage scaling in combos. Erron Black, for example, has lost some combo potential because of increased frames on fatal blow, scud shot cancels, and d+1 while Geras has lost a 50/50 mix up from his jab string, which will surely impact his overall damage output.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
F3/4 seems pretty risky considering f4 is a high and I couldn’t find anything that jailed it, and F3 causes a kd.
F3/F4 mix is all about conditioning your opponent. F3 and F4 look pretty similar, so your opponent has to guess which one is it. I don't believe that its a risk because your opponent has to know that you are going for the F4 and if you don't they get hit and it starts all over again. As far as jailing goes, my go to is B3 since you get an extra 5 frames to press a button and it's a low and it has 10F start-up, also to 2 blockstrings (B3U4/B3D4).


What does Shang do for Oki? Is s3 his best punish?
Kill Frames

112/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

112/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

F3/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

F3/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

Also, S4 would probably be your best punisher if you are punishing a move that is 11 frames are higher.


Where’s the low oh mix tho? I need that.
B1D2 (High, Overhead) KB
B3U4/B3D4 (Low, Overhead/ Low, Low)
S3U2D2 (High, Low, Low)
F242/F243 (Mid, Low, Mid) KB
21U2D2 (High, Mid, Mid, Overhead)
F3 ( Overhead)
B2112 (Mid, Overhead, High)
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
F3/F4 mix is all about conditioning your opponent. F3 and F4 look pretty similar, so your opponent has to guess which one is it. I don't believe that its a risk because your opponent has to know that you are going for the F4 and if you don't they get hit and it starts all over again. As far as jailing goes, my go to is B3 since you get an extra 5 frames to press a button and it's a low and it has 10F start-up, also to 2 blockstrings (B3U4/B3D4).




Kill Frames

112/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

112/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

F3/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

F3/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

Also, S4 would probably be your best punisher if you are punishing a move that is 11 frames are higher.




B1D2 (High, Overhead) KB
B3U4/B3D4 (Low, Overhead/ Low, Low)
S3U2D2 (High, Low, Low)
F242/F243 (Mid, Low, Mid) KB
21U2D2 (High, Mid, Mid, Overhead)
F3 ( Overhead)
B2112 (Mid, Overhead, High)
Youre my official favorite TYM member.