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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
We got some good stuff from the patch, all of Shang’s strings now combo into straight skull/straight skull Amplified on all characters. This is really good for corner, living them standing and going for throw/114 mix
Before the patch a string into straight skull was whiffing on females
How are you getting a rest and from Straight skulls.?
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Ummm I'm not really sure what you are asking but I think he's just saying end your strings into straight skull in the corner. Will be more consistent from different strings due to the hurtbox/hitstun changes
Ohh ok I thought he meant you could juggle into restand with straight skull. But yeah its just 16-20% off his normals for a bar. Good though cuz it basically jails into F2 unless they jump which only takes 3f to evade I think. But SS-restand into B1/s3/F2 pretty good.

I'm hoping they increase shangs damage by 3% on all combos. He only gets 24% off F2 and 28% off s3U2.
But it gets tricky because he gets higher % on different characters like Cassie, Jacqui, Sonya who are all 950 HP now.
So the same 285 damage combo is 30% vs Cassie(950hp) and only 28.5% vs characters like Erron(1000hp) and 25% vs Kotal(1100 HP).
The life points change is gonna change the MU's greatly.
For example:
Shang has to do 4 combos vs Kotal and 3+chip vs Cassie.
 

kcd117

Noob
Ohh ok I thought he meant you could juggle into restand with straight skull. But yeah its just 16-20% off his normals for a bar. Good though cuz it basically jails into F2 unless they jump which only takes 3f to evade I think. But SS-restand into B1/s3/F2 pretty good.

I'm hoping they increase shangs damage by 3% on all combos. He only gets 24% off F2 and 28% off s3U2.
But it gets tricky because he gets higher % on different characters like Cassie, Jacqui, Sonya who are all 950 HP now.
So the same 285 damage combo is 30% vs Cassie(950hp) and only 28.5% vs characters like Erron(1000hp) and 25% vs Kotal(1100 HP).
The life points change is gonna change the MU's greatly.
For example:
Shang has to do 4 combos vs Kotal and 3+chip vs Cassie.
I’ve been finishing most of mt combos with straight skulls amplified, those +frames are very good, and in the corner you get a free mix.

I’m hoping they’ll take a look at scaling instead of just making the second and third skulls do so little dmg. I used to play with the mindgame between the second and third skull at some ranges against some characters, but now I think I’d rather save the bar for something else.

About Kotal, he seems to be shaping up as a very challenging matchup for Shang with his buffs. His cat rush can only be punished with a D1, his close range game is a lot better and his HP is pretty substancial now. Him vs any dedicated zoner now are very interesting matchups.

Edit: forgot to add, his straight skulls frame trap into far ground skulls on hit, you can use that to condition people to stay on the ground before you start going for his F2 and F4.
 

PreNerf_

No labels
If NRS gave me the possibility to revert Shang's nerf by reverting Sonya's too I'd turn them down. Besides, Sonya's still broken.
I'm just gonna do my rebuttal in questions
( i'm lazy, sue me.)

1.He was getting punish then and still now for POORLY space UP Skulls. What changed?

2. Its a launcher/Punisher/ Anti-Air and Damage on top of that, it was doing mostly 30%+ at ever turn. What more do you want?

3. Blockstrings. Most of his usable string are at worst slightly negative or at best plus on block and you get to play this Strike/Throw mindgame. How can you use that to your advantage?

@PreNerf_

Absolutely nothing.



Well, after reading this thread, I get the impression that some people also want to end every string with ground eruption while being completely safe against every character, which would be entirely broken.



Shang Tsung's strings are superior to characters of similar archetype such as Cetrion and Skarlet. Unlike them, he has access to an exceptional jab string, a 10 frame mid (well, technically low) attack, and a couple of advantageous normal attacks as well as strings. In my early of assessment of this patch, I think Shang Tsung remains a top 10 character. He is certainly not low tier, dead, or ruined.

I have been highly critical of NRS since Mortal Kombat 9, but the community's reaction, including this forum's, to the most recent patch has been largely hyperbolic, absurd, and embarrassing.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="SHAOLIN, post: 2571946, member: 8452"]
I'm just gonna do my rebuttal in questions
( i'm lazy, sue me.)

1.He was getting punish then and still now for [B][I]POORLY [/I][/B]space UP Skulls. What changed?

2. Its a launcher/Punisher/ Anti-Air and Damage on top of that, it was doing mostly 30%+ at ever turn. What more do you want?

3. Blockstrings. Most of his usable string are at worst slightly negative or at best plus on block and you get to play this Strike/Throw mindgame. How can you use that to your advantage?

[USER=62691]@PreNerf_
@t3kwytch3r
Is this what tym is all about? People picking fights over an opinion of a character? Don't tag me in this shit if your just trying to pick fights.
 

Dr Jackal

Dr__Jackal
Not a very big nerf, Shang is still very interesting. Maybe the damages are a bit too much reduced, and they should have put 3 as a mid.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Not a very big nerf, Shang is still very interesting. Maybe the damages are a bit too much reduced, and they should have put 3 as a mid.
That would make it an 11 frame mid with good range which leads to his biggest midscreen damage.

Dont ge me wrong, making s3 a mid would make me really happy, but I dont think this would ever happen
 

PreNerf_

No labels
Ohh ok I thought he meant you could juggle into restand with straight skull. But yeah its just 16-20% off his normals for a bar. Good though cuz it basically jails into F2 unless they jump which only takes 3f to evade I think. But SS-restand into B1/s3/F2 pretty good.

I'm hoping they increase shangs damage by 3% on all combos. He only gets 24% off F2 and 28% off s3U2.
But it gets tricky because he gets higher % on different characters like Cassie, Jacqui, Sonya who are all 950 HP now.
So the same 285 damage combo is 30% vs Cassie(950hp) and only 28.5% vs characters like Erron(1000hp) and 25% vs Kotal(1100 HP).
The life points change is gonna change the MU's greatly.
For example:
Shang has to do 4 combos vs Kotal and 3+chip vs Cassie.
Good thinking, yea they need to give at least 3% back, but don't be too loud or the Nerf stans will come running. I literally just said how hard of a time i was having winning with him now and had a couple people try to pick fights with me. Everyone needs to be more constructive instead of trying to pick fights because they have differing opinions.
That would make it an 11 frame mid with good range which leads to his biggest midscreen damage.

Dont ge me wrong, making s3 a mid would make me really happy, but I dont think this would ever happen
Noooo, you don't want any character in the game that strong man lol. You don't give any character a super fast outranging mid. That's exactly what I was going to say though. Would make me happy but then you could just cheese matches out all day.
 

PreNerf_

No labels
Good thinking, yea they need to give at least 3% back, but don't be too loud or the Nerf stans will come running. I literally just said how hard of a time i was having winning with him now and had a couple people try to pick fights with me. Everyone needs to be more constructive instead of trying to pick fights because they have differing opinions.
Noooo, you don't want any character in the game that strong man lol. You don't give any character a super fast outranging mid. That's exactly what I was going to say though. Would make me happy but then you could just cheese matches out all day.
Weird, I went to post on this post last night and this guys post this morning and it just now posted the other here.
 

PreNerf_

No labels
Does this work?

Yea that would work, but now with the damage reduction it's not worth the bar. You can do any starter into amp gs into 4 gs and if you time it right, f24 will hit them whether they do u2 or u3 but don't do it near the corner because midscreen it makes it really hard to punish if they roll but near the corner of they roll they have a year and a half to punish you. If they don't use a wake up you hit confirm into 2 or 3 depending if you think your opponent is going to try to fb, if it connects then you hit confirm into gs for another combo. That's good tech on reads and if you use it sparingly then the fast knockdown will catch most people off guard, but with his damage reduction in most circumstances it won't be worth the bar unless they do something like wake up 3 all day long.
 

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
Is this what tym is all about? People picking fights over an opinion of a character? Don't tag me in this shit if your just trying to pick fights.
No way in any shape or form am I trying to pick a fight with you, that's beneath me and childish. I do understand that discussion in text form may convey a different response then talking face to face, so it may sound like I was trying to pick a fight but I wasn't.

All I was doing was trying to get you to understand that nerfing his damage has not killed this character or put him at bottom 5 or whatever some of you might think. Outside of his D1 and D3 none of his frame data has changed, so what was negative before is still negative now and you're still getting punished.

And what I think some people who are not understanding is that if you look at the patch note for other characters there were other damage nerfs as well and what NRS is trying to do is give opponents more opportunity to survive the fight.

You got to understand that it takes three 30% combos to get someone to 10% health and you had characters that exceeded that, so they can essentially die in two combos. I don't know about you but that's not fun.

And the last thing I want to add is that if you already haven't, go back and look at Shang Tsung frame data for his strings. They're not bad, they are good to great and just try to experiment with some stuff with that knowledge bro.

Peace & Love man.​
 

PreNerf_

No labels
No way in any shape or form am I trying to pick a fight with you, that's beneath me and childish. I do understand that discussion in text form may convey a different response then talking face to face, so it may sound like I was trying to pick a fight but I wasn't.

All I was doing was trying to get you to understand that nerfing his damage has not killed this character or put him at bottom 5 or whatever some of you might think. Outside of his D1 and D3 none of his frame data has changed, so what was negative before is still negative now and you're still getting punished.

And what I think some people who are not understanding is that if you look at the patch note for other characters there were other damage nerfs as well and what NRS is trying to do is give opponents more opportunity to survive the fight.

You got to understand that it takes three 30% combos to get someone to 10% health and you had characters that exceeded that, so they can essentially die in two combos. I don't know about you but that's not fun.

And the last thing I want to add is that if you already haven't, go back and look at Shang Tsung frame data for his strings. They're not bad, they are good to great and just try to experiment with some stuff with that knowledge bro.

Peace & Love man.​
We just have differing opinions on this. I was just stating my opinion being a main of shang tsung I have played almost nobody but shang exclusively since he came out. I don't believe damage should at all be the same across the bored. At high level play, things are always different. There is a reason that baraka gets amazing damage. It's because it's alot harder to open people up with baraka and you can block everything he has with low over head. So even if they brought barakas damage down to roughly 30% he would be shit. Anyone can argue all day that he would still be viable, but at a higher tournament level of play he would be worthless. Can you still win matches with him? Sure if you make flawless reads and make alot less mistakes as your opponent but I wouldn't ever play him. All I know is in Kombat league on demigod and with my friends that play higher level I was winning more than I was losing and it was still really hard and read dependent to get those wins with shang most matches with hardly any life left or if I lost , winning by a sliver. Now with shang I am losing more than I was winning and when I lose the match and i see their life bar with 10-12-15-5% it really pissed me off because I realized that given the fact that i wouldn't have to do two extra combos i would have won all of those matches. I used to crunch numbers for a living. I played pro poker and a two in five compared to a one in three is a big big deal. It was just my opinion, but it seems alot of people have salt. What's funny though is at higher level game play. Nobody has any trouble getting in on shang at all because they lab it up. Another thing is. A foxy grampa won dragon, shang vs cetrion. Go back and watch those matches. Most of them he barely won and if he had to get two more touches on dragon he wouldn't have won those matches. I will try to get shang to work and keep learning but if this persists,then I am dropping him for a character that can actually compete at a high level of play.
 
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t3kwytch3r

Stone-Kold-Zoner
Premium Supporter
I'm just gonna do my rebuttal in questions
( i'm lazy, sue me.)

1.He was getting punish then and still now for POORLY space UP Skulls. What changed?

2. Its a launcher/Punisher/ Anti-Air and Damage on top of that, it was doing mostly 30%+ at ever turn. What more do you want?

3. Blockstrings. Most of his usable string are at worst slightly negative or at best plus on block and you get to play this Strike/Throw mindgame. How can you use that to your advantage?

@PreNerf_
@t3kwytch3r
I'd just like to clarify that i don't think he's been made low tier, i just think the damage nerf was a tad heavy handed. I notice it especially when using b1d2 KB, which i think should have gotten 30 extra damage to make up for it.

His d3 nerf was absolutely necessary and he's still a good character, just not as threatening as before. But to answer your questions:
1: Even perfectly spaced up skulls can be dashed out of on the first hit by many characters. At far range, you now get 16% damage roughly for a bar, the opponent can still full combo punish as certain characters if they block the first hit. The r/r has changed.
2: I don't want any more from the move, i like it as it is: high risk, high reward.
3: I do use it to my advantage, and i'm certainly not complaining about his strings. But his most plus string have fb gaps (two with a particularly big one) and he lacks a fast, close mid.

I don't wanna seem like i'm downplaying, i'm still getting used to him post-patch. After playing a few games last night and this morning, i appreciate how correct use of upskulls is still a favourable r/r, but considering that skarlet, with a teleport and more projectiles / zoning ability, can get more damage with NO bars than shang can with 1, a tiny buff for his up close game wouldn't have gone amiss.

On an unrelated note, the third amp skull should be a base move and his teleport should replace that in his first variation.
 
@t3kwytch3r
Do you have a list of characters hat can dash out of spaced up skulls on regular block? I'm curious on a comprehensive list.

Character still scares me because at the right ranges it was basically much more oppressive than teleport as it was faster and safer at the specific ranges.
 

t3kwytch3r

Stone-Kold-Zoner
Premium Supporter
@AK Harold not a full list, but fairly certain Sub, Skarlet, Jax, Kabal and Scorpion, among others, can dash after blocking the first hit. It MAY need to be a flawless block but if its close skulls at point blank range, a helluva lot of people can get past it even without FB
 
No I'm asking about far skulls where you hit them with the back end of the first skull. That's the true spacing. If you haven't practiced exactly that I urge you to do that first then test dashing out.