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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

SHAOLIN

内部冲突
F3/4 seems pretty risky considering f4 is a high and I couldn’t find anything that jailed it, and F3 causes a kd.
F3/F4 mix is all about conditioning your opponent. F3 and F4 look pretty similar, so your opponent has to guess which one is it. I don't believe that its a risk because your opponent has to know that you are going for the F4 and if you don't they get hit and it starts all over again. As far as jailing goes, my go to is B3 since you get an extra 5 frames to press a button and it's a low and it has 10F start-up, also to 2 blockstrings (B3U4/B3D4).


What does Shang do for Oki? Is s3 his best punish?
Kill Frames

112/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

112/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

F3/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

F3/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

Also, S4 would probably be your best punisher if you are punishing a move that is 11 frames are higher.


Where’s the low oh mix tho? I need that.
B1D2 (High, Overhead) KB
B3U4/B3D4 (Low, Overhead/ Low, Low)
S3U2D2 (High, Low, Low)
F242/F243 (Mid, Low, Mid) KB
21U2D2 (High, Mid, Mid, Overhead)
F3 ( Overhead)
B2112 (Mid, Overhead, High)
 

Professor Oak

Are you a boy or girl?
F3/F4 mix is all about conditioning your opponent. F3 and F4 look pretty similar, so your opponent has to guess which one is it. I don't believe that its a risk because your opponent has to know that you are going for the F4 and if you don't they get hit and it starts all over again. As far as jailing goes, my go to is B3 since you get an extra 5 frames to press a button and it's a low and it has 10F start-up, also to 2 blockstrings (B3U4/B3D4).




Kill Frames

112/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

112/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

F3/ 2 forward dash and S1 or S2 (if they go for an Getup attack U2 it will beat it)

F3/ Walk forward slightly and then back dash F242 (Makes Getup Attack U3 whiff)

Also, S4 would probably be your best punisher if you are punishing a move that is 11 frames are higher.




B1D2 (High, Overhead) KB
B3U4/B3D4 (Low, Overhead/ Low, Low)
S3U2D2 (High, Low, Low)
F242/F243 (Mid, Low, Mid) KB
21U2D2 (High, Mid, Mid, Overhead)
F3 ( Overhead)
B2112 (Mid, Overhead, High)
Youre my official favorite TYM member.
 

CitizenSnips

A seldom used crab named Lucky. AKA Citizen Snips.
I haven't been able to play since EVO and haven't played post-patch but have looked into the patch notes a bit.

What are Warlock Shang's BnB and conversions doing damage wise now, and have they changed? I had a friend test out his basic BnB and was told he was doing around ~26% as opposed to the ~31% but I did not ask him to check other combos. I felt that Shang getting 30% for 1 bar basically anytime he touches you was a bit much but if every combo basically has been nerfed by that much I feel like several of his 5-5ish matchups probably now lean towards disadvantage now.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
I haven't been able to play since EVO and haven't played post-patch but have looked into the patch notes a bit.

What are Warlock Shang's BnB and conversions doing damage wise now, and have they changed? I had a friend test out his basic BnB and was told he was doing around ~26% as opposed to the ~31% but I did not ask him to check other combos. I felt that Shang getting 30% for 1 bar basically anytime he touches you was a bit much but if every combo basically has been nerfed by that much I feel like several of his 5-5ish matchups probably now lean towards disadvantage now.
Every combo involving ground skulls has lost about a fifth of its damage.

I still dont understand why people think 300 for a bar is a lot. Geras does over 350 midscreen and he remained untouched in terms of damage.

In terms of MUs, all evens are now closer to 6-4 in opponent's favour. Previous 6-4 are now easily 7-3 due to not only struggling in terms of tools, when you do finally get in you do less damage so your opponent has a much easier time catching their breath.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Every combo involving ground skulls has lost about a fifth of its damage.

I still dont understand why people think 300 for a bar is a lot. Geras does over 350 midscreen and he remained untouched in terms of damage.
Context matters. Geras doesn't zone your ass out and then hit you with ground inferno from half screen into nice damage into more zoning. And yeah dude, if you pick one of the highest damaging characters in the game you might find that he does a lot of damage.

But whether or not he's a zoner is only debatable right? LOL
 

CitizenSnips

A seldom used crab named Lucky. AKA Citizen Snips.
Every combo involving ground skulls has lost about a fifth of its damage.

I still dont understand why people think 300 for a bar is a lot. Geras does over 350 midscreen and he remained untouched in terms of damage.

In terms of MUs, all evens are now closer to 6-4 in opponent's favour. Previous 6-4 are now easily 7-3 due to not only struggling in terms of tools, when you do finally get in you do less damage so your opponent has a much easier time catching their breath.
The matchups I'm particularly concerned about now are Skarlet and Cetrion. Not in the sense that I think they are the absolute worst matchups for him, but those were matchups I felt that Shang's damage potential kept it even or just slightly in the Skarlet/Cetrion favor, whereas now I am thinking they might be more strongly in their favor.
 

Maus03

Noob
i kinda wish they changed the triple fire skulls because that move is almost completely worthless, especially for two bars, now if it was 1 bar ? sure.

how come liu kang gets 3 fireballs for a bar and i have to spend 2 bars to get 3? :mad:
I think they did that because the third skull is a mid and liu kang's are all highs.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Context matters. Geras doesn't zone your ass out and then hit you with ground inferno from half screen into nice damage into more zoning. And yeah dude, if you pick one of the highest damaging characters in the game you might find that he does a lot of damage.

But whether or not he's a zoner is only debatable right? LOL
See, when I get replies like this I wonder if we're playing the same game.

Everybody makes it sound like Shang locks you down at his favoured range. If that was true I would agree with the nerf, but the entire cast has a way in.

For Geras specifically, I dont see your scenario playing out at all. Maybe I'm just fighting better players but in my experience they all remember they have sand trap.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Context matters. Geras doesn't zone your ass out and then hit you with ground inferno from half screen into nice damage into more zoning. And yeah dude, if you pick one of the highest damaging characters in the game you might find that he does a lot of damage.

But whether or not he's a zoner is only debatable right? LOL
Real talk, am I the only one who think Shang genuinely didn't deserve to be smacked THIS HARD with the nerfbat?

I'm replying to you specifically cause I feel next you'll tell me Spellmaster is viable.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
See, when I get replies like this I wonder if we're playing the same game.

Everybody makes it sound like Shang locks you down at his favoured range. If that was true I would agree with the nerf, but the entire cast has a way in.

For Geras specifically, I dont see your scenario playing out at all. Maybe I'm just fighting better players but in my experience they all remember they have sand trap.
I didn't say anything about everybody so I'm not really sure how to respond to that. Shang Tsung definitely has good zoning and we saw it be effective at a high level at Evo. And yes, people get in, that's the point. If you can't get in then he's broke.

I never said anything about Shang vs Geras outside of the damage comparison. You have to think about more than just how Shang plays against the top tiers. Shang's zoning is effective the majority of the time.

Real talk, am I the only one who think Shang genuinely didn't deserve to be smacked THIS HARD with the nerfbat?

I'm replying to you specifically cause I feel next you'll tell me Spellmaster is viable.
I thought a strong DLC character got his damage nerfed, surprise surprise. Honestly dude, I don't give two fucks for this type of attitude. Sorry that my posts consist of more than just whining about character balance. Have a good one.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Honestly dude I don't give two fucks for this type of attitude. Sorry that my posts consist of more than just whining about character balance. Have a good one.
Yeah well, this shit happens to every fucking character I play in NRS games. It gets frustrating, especially when you then look at Kabal and see that he's entirely untouched. None of this show a good balancing mentality to me.

If you're okay with your character getting neutered, more power to you.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
I haven't been able to play since EVO and haven't played post-patch but have looked into the patch notes a bit.

What are Warlock Shang's BnB and conversions doing damage wise now, and have they changed? I had a friend test out his basic BnB and was told he was doing around ~26% as opposed to the ~31% but I did not ask him to check other combos. I felt that Shang getting 30% for 1 bar basically anytime he touches you was a bit much but if every combo basically has been nerfed by that much I feel like several of his 5-5ish matchups probably now lean towards disadvantage now.
  • His s3U2 combo that used to do 34% does 28%
  • His F24 combo does 24% now
  • His 114 does 26%
  • Far ground skull into ground skull does 16.6% down from 23%. Now does 3.1% chip
  • D2 KB does over 40%
  • B1D2 KB does about 30%
  • still gets above 40% with FB combos
He lost damage and from what I can tell they reduced damage of zoners (Tried with Sonya but failed) but Cetrion, Scarlet and Cassie do 20-26% on average. I feel Shang is still in a good place overall even though I don't like the nerf with solid fundamentals he is still a force to be rekoned with. GS is still a very string tool when spaced properly, Corpse Drop still out trades many projectiles. He still has top tier get off me mix and some very unique tools worth picking him over others. I guess it didn't bother me much because he is worlds better than my OG Kotal and I use Cassie Yaas Queen which gets 20% midscreen. Foxy will be using him in next major so we will see how good he does.
 

LawAbidingCitizen

MD| Soberless (Terminator-Final Judgment)
Yeah well, this shit happens to every fucking character I play in NRS games. It gets frustrating, especially when you then look at Kabal and see that he's entirely untouched. None of this show a good balancing mentality to me.

If you're okay with your character getting neutered, more power to you.
I feel shang is ok but I understand the frustration. They should have done half of the damage they did. With that said he is still solid just not as good. I normally play low to mid tiers so its not as big of a deal to me and the top tiers I play clear 20% midscreen.

You are right though in many games NRS has overnerfed characters that didn't deserve it. Cyrax comes to mind. There where fuzzy block solutions to everything he had in X but many in the community didn't want to lab it. I feel this happens because most of those at NRS like Tyler are not high level players who have good execution so when people complain they test and feel the same way. But I have hopes for later on. The meta is strike throw so every character is functional some more than others but we could get damage adjusted or others damage reduced to match Shang in hotfixes that won't require patches.

I do feel shang didn't really deserve it but at least he only needs one amped Corpse and a skull to make up for the damage loss. Try jailing into s3 from D4 with micro-dash that way you get 28% off your conversions instead of 24% and an additional 3% from Corpse chip guaranteed.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
I feel shang is ok but I understand the frustration. They should have done half of the damage they did. With that said he is still solid just not as good. I normally play low to mid tiers so its not as big of a deal to me and the top tiers I play clear 20% midscreen.

You are right though in many games NRS has overnerfed characters that didn't deserve it. Cyrax comes to mind. There where fuzzy block solutions to everything he had in X but many in the community didn't want to lab it. I feel this happens because most of those at NRS like Tyler are not high level players who have good execution so when people complain they test and feel the same way. But I have hopes for later on. The meta is strike throw so every character is functional some more than others but we could get damage adjusted or others damage reduced to match Shang in hotfixes that won't require patches.

I do feel shang didn't really deserve it but at least he only needs one amped Corpse and a skull to make up for the damage loss. Try jailing into s3 from D4 with micro-dash that way you get 28% off your conversions instead of 24% and an additional 3% from Corpse chip guaranteed.
At least somebody understands. Good thing they made jailing work properly this patch
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Yeah well, this shit happens to every fucking character I play in NRS games. It gets frustrating, especially when you then look at Kabal and see that he's entirely untouched. None of this show a good balancing mentality to me.
Why not? People have theorized that Kabal is top tier since the game's release, yet he has had no impact in tournaments. The character is supposed to be good in theory, but no player gets the results, which is most likely why the developers decided not to touch him.
 

Dr Jackal

Dr__Jackal
Dont ge me wrong, making s3 a mid would make me really happy, but I dont think this would ever happen
Don't think so too, but it would be a very nice addon to the char.

By the way I am still playing Shang, even if it's lot of harder with the nerf. I read that the second variation is very interesting, can't really figure out why.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Don't think so too, but it would be a very nice addon to the char.

By the way I am still playing Shang, even if it's lot of harder with the nerf. I read that the second variation is very interesting, can't really figure out why.
just make the triple skulls worth it.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Nightwolf Reflector vs Shang list:

Does hit:

BF1/Screaming Soul & Amp
BF2/Soul Steal
DF3/Corpse Drop & Amp
DF3/Soul Scatter (Not the Amp)
B2112/Etc.
Inferno Barrier(Kustom move)

Will be reflected:

BF1/Straight Skull
DB1/Ground Inferno
DB1/Crashing Flames (This move is really strong against Flames when you reflect the second fireball.)

Keep in mind that in Ancestral Gift, Nightwolf doesn't need to reflect a projectile to teleport. Also, he will reflect the projectile back in the reverse trajectory which is really interesting, so Crashing Flames may whiff on reflect at certain ranges and Ground Inferno will never hit you, though it may leave Nightwolf in a good situation. Nice little note for Soultaker in that his normal projectile will hit.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Fellow sorcerers, I am certain you have seen the recent resurgence of tier lists...

Sonic Fox's...



Tweedy's...



Wound Cowboy also claims Shang Tsung could be bottom 5.

So we are officially certified low tier heroes? LOL.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
these tier lists make me lol

shang is def better than mid tier, his buttons are too damn good and his zoning is pretty solid, groundskulls is a multi purpose move that controlls a lot of space.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
15692

Shang Tsung would be in A at least, if not A+ Same Goes for Nightwolf, A, potentially A+

Dunno enough about Kano to place him anywhere, his dirtbag variation got buffed right? what do you guys think? Tried to be a bit more real here :p
 
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Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Fellow sorcerers, I am certain you have seen the recent resurgence of tier lists...

Sonic Fox's...



Tweedy's...



Wound Cowboy also claims Shang Tsung could be bottom 5.

So we are officially certified low tier heroes? LOL.
Sonic's list seems a bit all over the place. The fact he's placing Kollector with the Kahns is just..lol. Kahns are really good now, but Kollector is certainly above them.

I like Tweedy's more tbh. I would have grouped Shang one tier lower however. Even recognizing his strengths, there are other characters that fit his archetype but they're either better at doing it or they flat out do more damage. Seeing Double comes to mind.

Honestly, I think if they fixed the scaling on his damage, Shang would be in a perfect spot.