What will Mortal Kombat 11's legacy be if there are no more Kombat Packs/patches?

[Sugarwatermixlegit]

Well... It was only yesterday that people were talking about how we didn't deserve to be at EVO because MKX died by the second year, calling the game trash, and saying skilled players would only play it if they had pot bonuses:

Video - MKXL / Injustice Twitter Poll - The Evo 2017 Rant by Mitsuownes

Everyone who is appalled by the latest twitter poll by MrWiz (link here) should check out this rant video by @Mitsuownes as I believe he hits the nail on the head. Keep in mind, I believe the anger should not be going towards the EVO staff for polling this question, rather to us. You'll know...

testyourmight.com

And I remember saying at that time that maybe the game is more fun than people give it credit for despite the issues, while people were saying we probably didn't even deserve to be at EVO since our second year (2016) was smaller than the first and the game was clearly dead.


Then there was a poll where the majority of people said not to make MK11 like MKX:

Poll - Should MK11 Build on MKX?

From MK9 to MKX, all the returning characters were completely redesigned, all the old stages were scrapped for new ones, and many new universal mechanics and features were added. Moving forward to MK11, I really don't think they should rebuild again. Instead I think they should use MKX as its...

testyourmight.com

Lots of people had opinions on why it should be super different from what we had before:







And months before INJ2, people were talking about how MKX was the most disliked game we've ever had, the people who stuck with playing it were only doing so for the money, and it was already dying:

Will MKX Die When Injustice 2 Comes Out

a video i made discussing if mkx will die when injustice 2 comes out

testyourmight.com

And how the meta didn't evolve and the game was boring after early on:



Now, all of a sudden people talk about MKX in a completely different light.

And some people already knew exactly what was going to happen:






The NRS community is stuck in a cycle. We won't get out of it until we wake up and admit that we're in it. We can never wait to kill the current game for the next one, and we can never let the people who enjoy the current game just have their peace and enjoy/encourage each other.

We'll still see if MK11 gets a patch or not — and I think it 100% deserves one (I don't feel that Ultimate is in "Last balance/meta patch state"). But regardless of what happens, we need to take a hard look at ourselves and ask if we'll actually support it, and each other, if/when it does.

I’ll download the patch and check it out, but at the end of the day, I’ve supported this game and the people that stream it as much as I can without playing it regularly. This is the only NRS game I don’t enjoy playing much, I loved and defended MKX and INJ2 and it’s meta. I’ve definitely seen people bash on those games and later praise it because MK11 is the new thing to hate, but that’s definitely not all of us who criticize this game. I want to love it, but once I got over the honeymoon phase of it being MK, the gameplay has just stayed boring to me.

I love the community, I love talking to people on this forum and will support people no matter what NRS game they like, but I’m going to state what I like and dislike about a game, and like I said this is the first time I’ve actively been critical of one of their titles.

I agree we should let people enjoy what they enjoy but when we have a game as different from it’s predecessors as this one, we should also welcome criticism and dislike of the actual product just as much.

 

[M2Dave]

...we should also welcome criticism and dislike of the actual product just as much.

Some people, who are fortunately a minority, always hold the community accountable instead of the individuals who design the game.

I believe that it is fair to state that NRS has yet to develop a fighting game that is deemed exceptional by the majority of the community as Street Fighter 4 was by the Capcom community and as Tekken 7 is by the Namco community. Perhaps the business model dictated by Warner Bros. executives does not allow NRS fighting games to flourish because of the two year cycle and/or because of the vast differences between each game as you accurately indicated. The community must not be blamed for these financial decisions. Digging up ancient posts in an attempt to embarrass or shame people and their opinions is futile. At the end of the day, NRS creates the actual games, not the community.

 

[Barakall]

Some people, who are fortunately a minority, always hold the community accountable instead of the individuals who design the game.

I believe that it is fair to state that NRS has yet to develop a fighting game that is deemed exceptional by the majority of the community as Street Fighter 4 was by the Capcom community and as Tekken 7 is by the Namco community. Perhaps the business model dictated by Warner Bros. executives does not allow NRS fighting games to flourish because of the two year cycle and/or because of the vast differences between each game as you accurately indicated. The community must not be blamed for these financial decisions. Digging up ancient posts in an attempt to embarrass or shame people and their opinions is futile. At the end of the day, NRS creates the actual games, not the community.

While I agree on the first and the 2-year cycle end part, there’s also an issue of people who think they speak on behalf of all fans or a majority, or at least display a certain arrogance, knowing better than others. Your statement about SF4 is true, but I’ve seen Tekken 7 being criticized and considered the low point of the franchise by most. Not saying that makes your statement wrong, but there’s no unilateral agreement on anything. We both make claims that are not factual in this regard.

There’s also in all these negative opinions very little acknowledgement of how MK11 had a very strong foundation in terms of meta and balance hence the lack of patches. Most pro sports players have at least 70% of characters in the S, A+ and A tiers. That is good, no matter how you feel about a game. In the end it’s all an opinion, but there are certain elements we can judge objectively and that regard MK11 and SF5 are solid games, even if now both fan bases are clinging to the predecessors.

MKX was heavily critiqued at the time and now looking back it was somehow a masterpiece? We shouldn’t go back to these threads, quotes and opinions since this is just how nostalgia and hindsight works. Indeed no need to shame anyone or point fingers at each other. Most fans despite the negativity or disappointment have enjoyed MK11 a ton, like myself, and there’s no need to bash the game just because it has ended. NRS just doesn’t care enough to support games long term or WB won’t allow them. It’s a shame really.

 

[Juggs]

MKX was a super fun game... early in the games life. BEFORE the nerf to Scorpion’s fireball cancels, it was probably my most favorite NRS game or at least, my favorite character in all the NRS games. As soon as he got nerfed, like always, I realized the game wasn’t heading in the right direction. Which unfortunately seems to happen far too often and not just with NRS games. Happened with For Honor for example. They nerfed Warden for the same reason Scorpion always gets nerfed. It’s not that Scorpion is ever a godlike character, he’s just GOOD but he gets used a lot. Him being overused is the ONLY reason he ever has gotten nerfed, because he damn sure has never been so OP that he deserves to be nerfed.

Anyway, aside from pre-nerfed Scorpion and me being a Shinnok co-main since launch when everyone was saying he was the worst character and not to use him, which I’m glad I didn’t listen, but aside from Shinnok getting the glow up, MKX was atrocious especially once DLC started dropping. But I still stand by it being a relatively good and fun game before they started balancing it based on the complaints.

I feel similarly about MK11. If MK11 was balanced around custom variations from the jump, I probably would still be actively playing it. As I’ve mentioned before, the demo or whatever it was (can’t remember what it was called) was the most fun I’ve had with any NRS game and the biggest reason was everyone using their own customs. By the time they allowed them in MK11 competitively, it was too late imo.

 

[Rude]

I still play the game. It's fun. It's fine if people don't, they probably shouldn't waste hours of their life complaining about it on social media.

If they don't like it, perhaps stop playing? Do something else with your time.

Crimson wasn't trying to shame anyone. He was providing evidence to support his argument. He and REO are correct.

 

[Edmund]

It's weird because I think that a lot of the hate on the game probably comes from anger towards NRS. Like the information droughts are not new to the series, but these have been prolonged here with MK11. I remember there being (1) no new information after I2 started to die down, the two year cycle was broken for a lot of people then boom random ass trailer drops; (2) the lack of info on DLC for MKX and MKXL and I2.

On the other hand, with I2 they did have a lot of information during the reveal. Does anyone remember in I2 when they released a character trailer every week? They had lots of that kind of information but then suddenly nothing, so lots of people who are passionate about the series get disappointed when it isn't everything they wanted. It's like they promote their games only in the beginning and then stop, making it really hard to adjust to change in pace.

But, I think that NRS has had a lot of bad publicity as of late with the allegations from workers in the studio, the microtransactions levied by WB, the whole grind festival that was MK11 on launch. I think that these issues might have been small when isolated, but since they happened in tandem it makes it more serious.

REGARDLESS, I agree, if you don't like the game don't play it, but I also recognize that I still am a masochist that plays Dead by Daylight and League of Legends despite my hatred towards the games. I love the potential of the game not the game itself.

 

[trufenix]

Literal clockwork. 2 years and 30 days to release almost on the nose. Bravo community.

 

[trufenix]

Does anyone have a link to the IJ2 thread like this? The MKX one? We had to do it twice for IJ2 cause then they went and ran another pro series and ruined all the complaining about lack of support.

 

[DeftMonk]

MKX was a super fun game... early in the games life. BEFORE the nerf to Scorpion’s fireball cancels, it was probably my most favorite NRS game or at least, my favorite character in all the NRS games. As soon as he got nerfed, like always, I realized the game wasn’t heading in the right direction. Which unfortunately seems to happen far too often and not just with NRS games. Happened with For Honor for example. They nerfed Warden for the same reason Scorpion always gets nerfed. It’s not that Scorpion is ever a godlike character, he’s just GOOD but he gets used a lot. Him being overused is the ONLY reason he ever has gotten nerfed, because he damn sure has never been so OP that he deserves to be nerfed.

Anyway, aside from pre-nerfed Scorpion and me being a Shinnok co-main since launch when everyone was saying he was the worst character and not to use him, which I’m glad I didn’t listen, but aside from Shinnok getting the glow up, MKX was atrocious especially once DLC started dropping. But I still stand by it being a relatively good and fun game before they started balancing it based on the complaints.

I feel similarly about MK11. If MK11 was balanced around custom variations from the jump, I probably would still be actively playing it. As I’ve mentioned before, the demo or whatever it was (can’t remember what it was called) was the most fun I’ve had with any NRS game and the biggest reason was everyone using their own customs. By the time they allowed them in MK11 competitively, it was too late imo.

Vortex+mk11 run cancel shit with fire aura on is a bit much. I don’t think they base their nerfs off character usage bro cmon.

 

[Juggs]

Vortex+mk11 run cancel shit with fire aura on is a bit much. I don’t think they base their nerfs off character usage bro cmon.

If Scorpion wasn’t used so much he wouldn’t be nearly complained about as much. Because he was never so OP to warrant as many people complaining about him as he got, in MKX or MK11. But he was really good AND used a lot. If people are facing 90% Scorpions, that character will receive the majority of the complaints, warranted or not. For an NRS character, unless you wind up “really good/solid” later in the games life, you’re going to get nerfed. Or unless the character goes under the radar, which ties back into my character usage point.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Well... It was only yesterday that people were talking about how we didn't deserve to be at EVO because MKX died by the second year, calling the game trash, and saying skilled players would only play it if they had pot bonuses:

Video - MKXL / Injustice Twitter Poll - The Evo 2017 Rant by Mitsuownes

Everyone who is appalled by the latest twitter poll by MrWiz (link here) should check out this rant video by @Mitsuownes as I believe he hits the nail on the head. Keep in mind, I believe the anger should not be going towards the EVO staff for polling this question, rather to us. You'll know...

testyourmight.com

And I remember saying at that time that maybe the game is more fun than people give it credit for despite the issues, while people were saying we probably didn't even deserve to be at EVO since our second year (2016) was smaller than the first and the game was clearly dead.


Then there was a poll where the majority of people said not to make MK11 like MKX:

Poll - Should MK11 Build on MKX?

From MK9 to MKX, all the returning characters were completely redesigned, all the old stages were scrapped for new ones, and many new universal mechanics and features were added. Moving forward to MK11, I really don't think they should rebuild again. Instead I think they should use MKX as its...

testyourmight.com

Lots of people had opinions on why it should be super different from what we had before:







And months before INJ2, people were talking about how MKX was the most disliked game we've ever had, the people who stuck with playing it were only doing so for the money, and it was already dying:

Will MKX Die When Injustice 2 Comes Out

a video i made discussing if mkx will die when injustice 2 comes out

testyourmight.com

And how the meta didn't evolve and the game was boring after early on:



Now, all of a sudden people talk about MKX in a completely different light.

And some people already knew exactly what was going to happen:






The NRS community is stuck in a cycle. We won't get out of it until we wake up and admit that we're in it. We can never wait to kill the current game for the next one, and we can never let the people who enjoy the current game just have their peace and enjoy/encourage each other.

We'll still see if MK11 gets a patch or not — and I think it 100% deserves one (I don't feel that Ultimate is in "Last balance/meta patch state"). But regardless of what happens, we need to take a hard look at ourselves and ask if we'll actually support it, and each other, if/when it does.

There has to be a way to please everyone, not just the select few.
I still think, that isn't just on what ppl say they want next, it's mostly how NRS interprets the idea of ppl wanting something different.

I think this day will come when NRS decides to stop reinventing the wheel, and just improve on things they already tried out.

 

[theotherguy]

Your statement about SF4 is true,

I might have been reading/watching the wrong things, but i recall even SF4 had it's fair share of haters of the game. I can't recall what the complaints were, but it definitely wasn't all lollipops and unicorns.

There has to be a way to please everyone, not just the select few.

Big call - how many things in the world are there that please everyone? Chocolate ice cream? Star Wars? Everyone has an opinion, and some people like to make theirs known more than others.

I still think, that isn't just on what ppl say they want next, it's mostly how NRS interprets the idea of ppl wanting something different.

Or maybe it's NRS deciding on what they want and doesn't have much bearing, if any, on what people want?

Who asked for an NRS Marvel game? Not me, so why the hell are they allegedly making one?

 

[Barakall]

I might have been reading/watching the wrong things, but i recall even SF4 had it's fair share of haters of the game. I can't recall what the complaints were, but it definitely wasn't all lollipops and unicorns.

Exactly, thanks for proving my point

 

[Eddy Wang]

I might have been reading/watching the wrong things, but i recall even SF4 had it's fair share of haters of the game. I can't recall what the complaints were, but it definitely wasn't all lollipops and unicorns.



Big call - how many things in the world are there that please everyone? Chocolate ice cream? Star Wars? Everyone has an opinion, and some people like to make theirs known more than others.



Or maybe it's NRS deciding on what they want and doesn't have much bearing, if any, on what people want?

Who asked for an NRS Marvel game? Not me, so why the hell are they allegedly making one?

Each NRS game gives data, so ppl ask what they want next based on the data from such games.
but then they scrap those games ideas, use a blank sheet to create a new one, and add those ideas, giving a game with much more problems that could've been solved.

I think NRS did a lot of good improving their engine over the past 10 years.
They solved the input bug on down and up.
online is a lot more better
training mode was improved over the years, and i think currently it's on a peak of what a fighting game should have as a training mode, sure there is some fixes here and there, but it works well.
they added input timing options for those who do code fast, and for those who like buffering.

So far so good.

But then here it comes things i think has ruined every MK game post MK9

1 - Range
Command normals with Huge range, dial strings that can make characters advance half screen with each hit

2- Everyone was somehow made either annoying rushdown as Kabal, or extremely turtle as Zod

3- Interactable usage, easy way to escape corners

4 - Disjoined Hitboxes
All characters now have a weapon of sort, making attacks with invulnerability on whiff on top of having insane rages

5 - anti-airs gets worse every game

And then MK11 comes in and builds on top of this with:
6- No meter management
Either a rushdown character is too good as Jacqui/Liu Kang, and always has recources to spend, or it's Cetrion, Fujin and always has recources to spend, once their design it's clearly step ahead of the rest of the cast of MK11.


At this point, i just want NRS to take all this experience, and improve on things they have worked on for the past 10 years, and give us a game with a commercial success than can last while keep going strong.

SF had this with SF4
Tekken is having T7
and MK is yet to have this, and i think, that is because each game changes all the time, and doesn't improve on things they did well, no wonder ppl wanting to go back on things they think it worked well for them.

 

[darthbrooks]

Tekken 7 being criticized and considered the low point of the franchise by most

most who? the old heads I follow / know talk about how broken OG 5 (Steve) / 6 (Bob) were, and I wouldn't trust anyone with opinions about previous titles unless they went to locals given how ass the netcode has been. maybe TTT2 is held higher in regards to hype but I don't recall hearing 7 refered to as a low point. either way, not sure we're doing MK11 any favor comparing it to a game that's been supported for six years and still have consistently increasing tournament entrants.

I voted average because I feel that the game is GREAT but there's something about it that kind of makes it stale for me after a while. there's a certain feeling of seen-it-before I can't shake at the moment

 

[NaCl man]

I think this day will come when NRS decides to stop reinventing the wheel, and just improve on things they already tried out.

this x100. If its a 2 year cycle with games that's cool but build off of it with what works. Mk11 feels like a good base to start from. But keep the mk series building from this.

 

[Eddy Wang]

but I’ve seen Tekken 7 being criticized and considered the low point of the franchise by most.

This has to be bullshit right?
I don't recall any other tekken being this successfull since Tekken 3. despite whay they did with season 3 and season 4.

 

[M2Dave]

I have been playing Tekken for 20 years. Tekken 7 is the most revered Tekken game by competitive and casual players alike since Tekken 3, which Tekken 7 is likely to outsell if there is one final season. Even the Capcom community has voted Tekken 7 the best fighting game of this generation.

The overwhelming discussion in this thread has been positive and productive. Here is a tip, though. If you know nothing about fighting games other than Mortal Kombat 11, conduct research before you post.

Calling Tekken 7 a "masher" and the "low point of the franchise" proves that you are ignorant. LOL. If you simply state that you like Mortal Kombat 11 the best, nobody will criticize you for having a preference.

 

[Barakall]

I have been playing Tekken for 20 years. Tekken 7 is the most revered Tekken game by competitive and casual players alike since Tekken 3, which Tekken 7 is likely to outsell if there is one final season. Even the Capcom community has voted Tekken 7 the best fighting game of this generation.

The overwhelming discussion in this thread has been positive and productive. Here is a tip, though. If you know nothing about fighting games other than Mortal Kombat 11, conduct research before you post.

Calling Tekken 7 a "masher" and the "low point of the franchise" proves that you are ignorant. LOL. If you simply state that you like Mortal Kombat 11 the best, nobody will criticize you for having a preference.

I’ve seen a lot of hate towards it, but there you go again with claiming your dominance because you’ve played it for 20 years. And just because that’s what you found, does it automatically mean I don’t know a thing about fighting games? Sorry but that’s arrogant dude.

 

[John Grizzly]

I’ve seen a lot of hate towards it, but there you go again with claiming your dominance because you’ve played it for 20 years. And just because that’s what you found, does it automatically mean I don’t know a thing about fighting games? Sorry but that’s arrogant dude.

You said most consider Tekken 7 the lowpoint of the series.

You lose all credibility with that statement, because it's absolutely asinine. Tekken has never been more popular and aside from the Leroy and Fahkumram debacle, the game is beloved.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

You said most consider Tekken 7 the lowpoint of the series.

You lose all credibility with that statement, because it's absolutely asinine. Tekken has never been more popular and aside from the Leroy and Fahkumram debacle, the game is beloved.

Crazy how many NRS only players love using confirmation bias to just shit on other peoples games lol

 

[Juxtapose]

The overwhelming discussion in this thread has been positive and productive.

And this is the big take-away not just for this thread, but for any discussion. Both praise and criticism of something is absolutely fine, so long as you're being constructive about it. That allows for actual discussion and understanding instead of just arguing.

 

[Marlow]

I'm curious what the legacy of MK9 would have been if it wasn't the first in the line of the more modern MK/NRS games.

For example, if somehow (setting aside graphics, netcode, other modern stuff) MK11 and MK9 had essentially switched the order of things, where MK11 had actually come out as MK9 and MK9 had actually come out as MK11, would people still feel the same way about both games?

 

[M2Dave]

I’ve seen a lot of hate towards it, but there you go again with claiming your dominance because you’ve played it for 20 years. And just because that’s what you found, does it automatically mean I don’t know a thing about fighting games? Sorry but that’s arrogant dude.

I never intended to disparage you and I never said that you knew nothing about fighting games. I implied that you knew nothing about Tekken if you call Tekken 7 the "low point of the franchise". Aside from Leroy and Fahkumram, who were overpowered upon release, Tekken 7 is critically acclaimed by both competitive and casual players. 4-5 people in this thread are telling you the exact same thing.

I mention Tekken 7 a lot because it is the anti-Mortal Kombat 11. LOL. The game is the ideal example of a fighting game that does not simplify the meta or eliminate character archetypes in order to achieve artificial balance. In fact, Tekken 7 keeps expanding the meta (i.e., rage art, rage drive, 2D characters, armor moves, wall bounce, etc.) while Mortal Kombat 11 added a feature that should have been in the game from the very beginning (i.e., customizable variations) and armor breaks, many of which are impractical, particularly on release day in tournament variations. No wonder the community's best players, Sonic Fox and Ninja Killer, play Tekken 7 as much as, if not more than, Mortal Kombat 11. LOL.

 

[Juxtapose]

I'm curious what the legacy of MK9 would have been if it wasn't the first in the line of the more modern MK/NRS games.

For example, if somehow (setting aside graphics, netcode, other modern stuff) MK11 and MK9 had essentially switched the order of things, where MK11 had actually come out as MK9 and MK9 had actually come out as MK11, would people still feel the same way about both games?

Interestingly, though not formally a NetherRealm Studios title, the disappointment and dislike of Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe never abated, or lessened as the years went on, despite that title laying the ground work for some of the style and mechanics of future titles.