What's new

MKK Hanzo's Crazy 2018 UMK3 Matchup Chart

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
@MKK hanzo posted an updated 2018 UMK3 matchup chart on FB. A lot of these numbers seem crazy to me, but Hanzo is a Grandmaster and I respect his opinion. What is everyone's thoughts?

16021

Just off the top of my head Ermac beating Kabal 6-4 and Smoke beating Kabal 7-3 seems wrong. Reptile losing to Classic Sub 4-6, but beating Unmasked Sub 6-4 seems strange (Reptile vs USub seems very hard even with the infinite). Unmasked Sub losing to Jax 4-6, but going 5-5 with Nightwolf seems off too. Not sure about Reptile beating Scorpion 6-4 or losing to Kano 4-6.

@ded
@Shock
@tehdrewsus
@MKK hanzo
@Mgo
@nwo
@REO
@Juggs
@dubson
@AC1984
@Konqrr
@mkholic
@NoDoubt
 
Last edited:

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Yeah... I've already recreated it so I can mess with the numbers.

One thing I absolutely disagree with is Classic Sub's placement. IMO he is bottom 5.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
Ok, I know next to nothing about this game competitively, but was Sheeva really so bad she had multiple 9-1's? Real, true 9-1's where only massive human error and outplaying can get you the win?
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Ok, I know next to nothing about this game competitively, but was Sheeva really so bad she had multiple 9-1's? Real, true 9-1's where only massive human error and outplaying can get you the win?
You might be thinking of MK9. Sheeva is trash tier in this game, but its not a bunch of 9-1's and 10-0's like MK9. I wouldn't expect her to win anything though. Interestingly enough, she is actually very powerful on the N64 version of MKT.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
You might be thinking of MK9. Sheeva is trash tier in this game, but its not a bunch of 9-1's and 10-0's like MK9. I wouldn't expect her to win anything though. Interestingly enough, she is actually very powerful on the N64 version of MKT.
I was just going by the chart here. She has two 9-1s, the only character with any.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
This is my conversation with Hanzo on FB regarding the Ermac vs Kabal 6-4 and Human Smoke vs Kabal 7-3.
How does Human Smoke 7-3 Kabal??? Ermac 6-4 Kabal???
Kabal at the higher levels can do shit against male ninjas. Even Scorp gives him issues.
The fact that Kabal CANT sweep, hk or lk H. Smoke and Ermac on block means that he can/must only jab them, and them both CAN spam Lk,hk,sweep on him withouth fear of a special punish on block.
Also Kabal standing Gjabing like mad means shit for both ninjas.
H. Smoke can relaunch Kabal after ANYcombo too.
They can runaway from him pretty badly too. Wisely teleporting without being caught and NEVER jumping on him.
He must be VERY carefull of trying full combo (lklkhphp) on them on block since Uppercut generally fails and BOTH hp parts of his autocombo on blk are punishable either run and combo or a naked special.
Every respectable Kabal knows that will whiff and block confirms the hk lk uhk bhk string. Or they can hp hp dhp. I agree on never jumping from kabal. Kabal not being able to sweep is a non-issue as well. That should never be done vs glitch jabbers with a punish. While the ninja can spam sweep without a special punish, they can still be punished by normals such as lk and hk. Sweep is also negative, which means more guaranteed jab pressure when blocked. This forces the male ninja to lose space to the corner and encourages them to teleport more. We all know the teleport can be handled by back buffered reverse spins.
While I agree on some points, remember that this list is with two imaginary players with perfect reactions, execution and reading. While when onr self plays, there is of course the chance of human error, execution error or simply a bad read.

A blocked sweep, while -on block, is NOT guaranteed free lp pressure. You can even tlpt on that small frame. And also, we are talking of close range sweep or jus the "tip" of the sweep? Have that in mind.

When I say lk/hk spam, they need to be perfectly spaced. Kabal HAVE to block 2 or 3 to gain the offensive again, by this time, either the ninja player know this and will get into the offense again with Gjabs or worse for Kabal: Ermac punch starter, wich is like 2 frames startup, Option selectable on block, and starts way faster than Kabal HP starter and maybe 1 or 2frames earlier than kick starter.

Kabal can just forget of his Dash on wakeup vs a perfect Gjab player, and also dont forget the relauncher aspect of H Smoke.

To catch a GOOD player teleporting on block is HARD, believe me. Sure you can bait them, but it all depends on the player mental strenght and stage position recognition.

(I dont get th3 backward buffer for dash vs teleport)
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
What year is this? Oh, well yeah I disagree with a lot of these matchups, obviously Kabal, who's been downplayed by South America for 15 years. jajaja. I'm more interested in what others have to say. The last matchup list was built by the community and averaged. If anyone wants to take a look to compare, here is a thread from 2011 https://testyourmight.com/threads/umk3-match-based-tier-chart.23126/ and here is a less scientific one from 2008 https://testyourmight.com/threads/ultimatemk-combined-tier-list-discussion.21989/- iirc this was based on the input of at least 30 players.
 
Last edited:

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Ok, I know next to nothing about this game competitively, but was Sheeva really so bad she had multiple 9-1's? Real, true 9-1's where only massive human error and outplaying can get you the win?
In UMK3, most characters are viable. Someone being bottom tier doesn’t have the same impact as bottom tier in newer games. The tier gaps are much closer together.

I don’t think Kabal or HSmoke 9-1’s her, closer to 8-2. But MU numbers are highly subjective and the difference between 8-2 and 9-1 isn’t really even worth discussing or arguing, tbh.
 

MRIGOTBASS

SKYPE: igotbass
I thought UMK3 was played on Microsoft XBox not Microsoft Excel?? Funny how the best players in the game, don't make chart's and debate over things like this, they just play the game.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
Oh, its a Tier list. Made by me ;)

Edit: hello everyone, long time without posting here. I have been thru a lot.

If anybody wants explanations about, feel free to ask. I can backup every reasoning for it.

Also, no need to argue, if someone doesnt like it, just forget about it. Its after all, just my opinion, based on my match experience amd knowledge.

:p
 

Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
Premium Supporter
Oh, its a Tier list. Made by me ;)

Edit: hello everyone, long time without posting here. I have been thru a lot.

If anybody wants explanations about, feel free to ask. I can backup every reasoning for it.

Also, no need to argue, if someone doesnt like it, just forget about it. Its after all, just my opinion, based on my match experience amd knowledge.

:p
I'm really curious about how classic sub is better than unmasked sub
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
This Kabal downplay truly is a travesty of the highest order.

@MKK hanzo Apologize
Haha its ok, but regardin offline play, how many good Kabals or Smoke or Ermac have you guys fought? Im curious, but at the same time I dont want to sound offensive, but there are facts that have to be said.

Most of the tier list here are made by:

Online players: Wich opinion canbe taken with a grain of salt, because its NOT the same game. Even with 5 or 7 frames of delay, wich is very playable, makes one frsmer punishes or reads unneffective, so the game has to be played differently and at a WAY lower level of skill. Most of them dont have an pffline community, and while it obvioously NOT their fault, they dont qualify to these tier making/matchup charts.

They are simple at another level.

Old players that dont accepted/adapted to Glitch jabbing or say that it "breaks the game":This is self explanatory and shame on them.

Theory fighters: Players that cant backup or do what they say.

Players that have mad skill,but dont have good competition: Also, self explanatory.

In resume, for example when I see stuff like "South America downplaying Kabal", its funny.

Hasnt SA proved to be the very best in the game?

Werent even the best US players from SA? (Marvin, CD, the recent Chilean pkayer that went go GGA and won all 3 MK tourneys back to back)

Why downplay SA when they have not only provided RESULTS backing up all their talk, but won everything?

Just a look at tournament offline vids is all anyone that KNOWS the game needs to see this.

Kabal NOT winning everything but Ninjas shoild be a clear indicator of what the tier shows.

Also, he is UP THERE, 3rd on the list. Is bad a third place?

That also could be labeled as racism, but Im not that whinny nor care.

I'm really curious about how classic sub is better than unmasked sub
If you mean, U Sub vs C Sub directly, the chart says its 5-5.

One punch starter is all he needs. I posted on FB on how the game is played today and how characters that have punch juggle starters can safely block option select ALL their combo attempts. U Sub cant hold the keepaway Ice Clone game forever and while both at high level are gimmicky, masked Sub has ninja normals that are on par with U Sub best normals (standing HK. Uppercutt, Standing Lk) some are better like the RH for AAs. Both have standard sweeps that BOTH can punish with slide.

One thing is that, sometimes if U Sub isnt cautious on his offense, he can get accidental Ice Shower when gping from crouch to run foward and punch starter. This can be corrected by holding RUN in these instances.

Both can freeze a blocked Hk/Lk and from there the difference in damage is obvious and marks a difference.

If it is vs other chars, I can go in depthnin a while. Lots of writting needed!

Tier list should be make with account of BOTH players actively thinking while in match, not like the other cant see, react or read what one is going to do.

Sorry for the typos, Im on a bus right now.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Haha its ok, but regardin offline play, how many good Kabals or Smoke or Ermac have you guys fought? Im curious, but at the same time I dont want to sound offensive, but there are facts that have to be said.

Most of the tier list here are made by:

Online players: Wich opinion canbe taken with a grain of salt, because its NOT the same game. Even with 5 or 7 frames of delay, wich is very playable, makes one frsmer punishes or reads unneffective, so the game has to be played differently and at a WAY lower level of skill. Most of them dont have an pffline community, and while it obvioously NOT their fault, they dont qualify to these tier making/matchup charts.

They are simple at another level.

Old players that dont accepted/adapted to Glitch jabbing or say that it "breaks the game":This is self explanatory and shame on them.

Theory fighters: Players that cant backup or do what they say.

Players that have mad skill,but dont have good competition: Also, self explanatory.

In resume, for example when I see stuff like "South America downplaying Kabal", its funny.

Hasnt SA proved to be the very best in the game?

Werent even the best US players from SA? (Marvin, CD, the recent Chilean pkayer that went go GGA and won all 3 MK tourneys back to back)

Why downplay SA when they have not only provided RESULTS backing up all their talk, but won everything?

Just a look at tournament offline vids is all anyone that KNOWS the game needs to see this.

Kabal NOT winning everything but Ninjas shoild be a clear indicator of what the tier shows.

Also, he is UP THERE, 3rd on the list. Is bad a third place?

That also could be labeled as racism, but Im not that whinny nor care.



If you mean, U Sub vs C Sub directly, the chart says its 5-5.

One punch starter is all he needs. I posted on FB on how the game is played today and how characters that have punch juggle starters can safely block option select ALL their combo attempts. U Sub cant hold the keepaway Ice Clone game forever and while both at high level are gimmicky, masked Sub has ninja normals that are on par with U Sub best normals (standing HK. Uppercutt, Standing Lk) some are better like the RH for AAs. Both have standard sweeps that BOTH can punish with slide.

One thing is that, sometimes if U Sub isnt cautious on his offense, he can get accidental Ice Shower when gping from crouch to run foward and punch starter. This can be corrected by holding RUN in these instances.

Both can freeze a blocked Hk/Lk and from there the difference in damage is obvious and marks a difference.

If it is vs other chars, I can go in depthnin a while. Lots of writting needed!

Tier list should be make with account of BOTH players actively thinking while in match, not like the other cant see, react or read what one is going to do.

Sorry for the typos, Im on a bus right now.
SA hasn’t proved to be the very best. That’s like saying USA has proven to be the very best. We haven’t played each other in a tournament setting offline yet.

And it doesn’t matter how good you are, you could be the literal best in the universe and still downplay a character or more specifically YOUR character. Tier lists and MU numbers are highly subjective, and not a single person is devoid of criticism. You could never lose a round and that still wouldn’t mean everything that comes out of your mouth is law. This is called an argument from authority, or an appeal to authority. You’re basically saying since y’all are the best (which isn’t a consensus view nor has that even been demonstrated), whatever you say about the game is an undeniable fact as opposed to a valued opinion. Which just isn’t true.

Just because Kabal can’t absolutely dominate Human Smoke or Ermac doesn’t mean it’s a bad/losing matchup for him. Kabal actually has to do some work and thinking against these two, that doesn’t mean they are favored in the MU.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
SA hasn’t proved to be the very best. That’s like saying USA has proven to be the very best. We haven’t played each other in a tournament setting offline yet.

And it doesn’t matter how good you are, you could be the literal best in the universe and still downplay a character or more specifically YOUR character. Tier lists and MU numbers are highly subjective, and not a single person is devoid of criticism. You could never lose a round and that still wouldn’t mean everything that comes out of your mouth is law. This is called an argument from authority, or an appeal to authority. You’re basically saying since y’all are the best (which isn’t a consensus view nor has that even been demonstrated), whatever you say about the game is an undeniable fact as opposed to a valued opinion. Which just isn’t true.
I dont want to delve on this, but again, Marvin and CD destroyed everyone there. THEY ARE South Americans/latins whatever you call anyone not from US. If that is not proof enough. They won most if not ALL of he tourneys they were in. That is not proof? Online and offline they won against everyone. is that not proof enough? Eis from Chile won 3 tourneys there, is that not proof enough?

If a good player is NOT "deserving" of making a tier list or this: "You could never lose a round and that still wouldn’t mean everything that comes out of your mouth is law" then we are having here the MILENIAL ATTITUDE, where mens are woman, an apricot is a truck, UMK3 is Tekken and the Earth is flat or triangular because they say it, to say something. Something that dont know enough or at all about something can voice his opinion sure, but that doesnt mean he/she/it is right.

To each his own if they want to make fools of themselves.

Also Im not downplaying MY character, I dont have a character, and if I had it, it is NIGHTWOLF.

Just because Kabal can’t absolutely dominate Human Smoke or Ermac doesn’t mean it’s a bad/losing matchup for him. Kabal actually has to do some work and thinking against these two, that doesn’t mean they are favored in the MU.
I fail to see the logic of this. He loses, but at the same time don`t?

Saying "some work" is what I refer when I asked how GOOD players have you guys fought. if I see a tournament where a player like BASS dominates mashing one button, then the players arent not only not good enough, but not worthy of having attention.






With that out, any question on my reasoning on the tier list?
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
In resume, for example when I see stuff like "South America downplaying Kabal", its funny.

Hasnt SA proved to be the very best in the game?

Werent even the best US players from SA? (Marvin, CD, the recent Chilean pkayer that went go GGA and won all 3 MK tourneys back to back)

Why downplay SA when they have not only provided RESULTS backing up all their talk, but won everything?

Just a look at tournament offline vids is all anyone that KNOWS the game needs to see this.

Kabal NOT winning everything but Ninjas shoild be a clear indicator of what the tier shows.

Also, he is UP THERE, 3rd on the list. Is bad a third place?

That also could be labeled as racism, but Im not that whinny nor care.
Mr. Hanzo, I do not believe Shock's comment was to be interpreted as racist or ethnocentric. It is common for geographical regions to have a certain disposition, or opinion on a character.

If you mean, U Sub vs C Sub directly, the chart says its 5-5.
Mike was asking why you believe that C Sub is a better character (Higher numbers on the tier list) than U Sub. I don't think he was asking about the C Sub vs U Sub matchup specifically.
 

Biggs

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
This is my unfinished conversation with Mr. Hanzo on FB regarding the Reptile vs U Sub and C Sub matchups.

Mr. Hanzo How does Reptile lose to Classic Sub but beat Unmasked Sub? I know Reptile has infinite on USub but that matchup is harder because he has better space control with Ice shower and clone.
Due to how the game is played today, any char that can start a pop up via HPcombos can easiñy abuse this by OS al his pop ups with GJabs.

Any trade in fireballs between C.Sub vs Rep is a lose for Rept.

Both have infs on each other, thats also why I put an * on Rept. IF, only IF you can do his inf/most damaging reps, some matches outcome should be more favorable to him.

MK games arent like SF where you can throw fireballs or space due to GJ, EXCEPT Rept.

Ice Shower can be defeated full screen with a Elbow Dash whiffed on purpose then Pop up os for blocking if you see the sower on you.

U Sub can set up the clone, sure,but there isnt much he can do behind it. Reptile can keep firing balls at him (wisely and cautiously).
What is so different about CSub's freeze vs USub's? They will both trade favorably vs Reptile. The Run may go past ice shower, but USub can just Ice shower close or freeze and reptile will run directly into it. Reptile cannot continue zoning while the clone is out. After USub blocks a fast ball, he can instantly freeze out of blockstun and beat the slowball from making it in time. Reptiles Acid spit goes over freeze and slide. His invisibility is also a non factor if the USub can put the clone up. On the HP combo glitch jab OS, that is certainly power, but we must remember that the HP and close HP autocombo starter is a special high (It can be ducked, but not while blocking). Reptile is less inclined to hit an opponent with a popup from a Special High attack than he is from a Mid hitting forceball.
@MKK hanzo could you please shed light on the differences between the CSub and USub vs Reptile matchup. You seem to allude to the fact the CSub can relaunch Reptile while USub cannot. However, Reptile can infinite both USub and CSub, but I believe that Reptile has a tougher time in neutral vs USub.

@Shock @ded do you agree or no?
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
Mr. Hanzo, I do not believe Shock's comment was to be interpreted as racist or ethnocentric. It is common for geographical regions to have a certain disposition, or opinion on a character.
Im totally fine with it. ;)


Mike was asking why you believe that C Sub is a better character (Higher numbers on the tier list) than U Sub. I don't think he was asking about the C Sub vs U Sub matchup specifically.
Yes as I said, LOTS of writting detiling every matchup would have to be done. Basically ninja normals, and a easy relauncher OSelectable from punch would be the main points of him being way higher. Damage output per freeze too.

@MKK hanzo could you please shed light on the differences between the CSub and USub vs Reptile matchup. You seem to allude to the fact the CSub can relaunch Reptile while USub cannot. However, Reptile can infinite both USub and CSub, but I believe that Reptile has a tougher time in neutral vs USub.
Yes sure. My way of thinking is that many rept players want to zone the hell out of the other player. In fireball trade vs any Sub, is a loss for Rept. Less of course in the case of u Sub due to damage output. if ret KNOWS that he cant fireball like mad vs C Sub, what he has left? Invisio can help a bit but both share the same animation for their punch starters, its like a mirror match. Both can punish blocked moves with sldes too. What is left for Rept? Stang and Gjab? Ground Ice and good bye.

vs USub both will zone in their own way. Rept filling the screens with forceballs while U Sub tries to bait preempetive attacks with Ice clones. Here the Ic eShower plays a role. While normal Ice blast may not reach or give a favorably trade, Ice Shower will freeze Rept, and while trading, U Sub is closer to rept for a combo (a meagre damaging one).

If you look closely to the chart, I put an * on Sindel, Reptile and R Smoke. That means that those chars have infinite combos or playfield changing habilities, like going invisible. I think the numbers may change using those (if the player can). I do think that they can gain a point or 2 on tehir matches, but as I always say, in a tier list you HAVE TO take in account that both players are equally skilled and aware of each other tools. Its not only adding to the strenghts and wakness of each char blindly, but if they are REALLY viable or not ina high level match.

EDIT: :DOGEDoggo emoticon but not REO? Come on! :D
 

MRIGOTBASS

SKYPE: igotbass
This Kabal downplay truly is a travesty of the highest order.

@MKK hanzo Apologize
I can see @MKK hanzo points and they are valid, everything he is saying is true. Ur getting 50% off a blocked sweep, ur getting Ermac Lifts off a blocked sweep, these are blocked normals. Kabal cannot get gaurenteed damage off a blocked normal, I don't think, could be wrong but dont think so.

Also @MKK hanzo play offline events more than probably anyone else, so you have to give weight to what he is saying. Not attacking people but players like @ded and them I don't think they actually play vs Skilled players offline ever, correct me if I am wrong, but I never seent a DedK Tournament video I dont think ever. Hanzo has the Resume to back up his claims, have to respect what he says.