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UMK3 Match Based Tier Chart

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
I made a mock chart on my own last night just to see how it would look based on my own off the cuff guesses. It's not really anything scientific, as I'm sure players will disagree with some of the matchup outcomes, but here's an example of the tier list based on my findings and the points they receive based on how well they match up with each character. Some players might like it a lot more as well, but it's something to study for now until we can actually put it to the test.

http://ultimatemk.com/umk3mocktier.htm

Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76
 

O Juggernaut 0

Ambassador
Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76
Based off of that I would put them in these letter group rankings:

S
Kabal, Human Smoke

A+
Ermac, Kung Lao, Nightwolf

A
Kano, Reptile, Robot Smoke, Kitana

B+
Sonya, Jax, Sindel

B
Unmasked Sub-zero, Scorpion, Stryker

C
Jade, Liu Kang, Sektor, Mileena

D
Classic Sub-zero, Cyrax, Sheeva, Shang Tsung


I agree with your estimates, btw.
 

ded

Elder God
I made a mock chart on my own last night just to see how it would look based on my own off the cuff guesses. It's not really anything scientific, as I'm sure players will disagree with some of the matchup outcomes, but here's an example of the tier list based on my findings and the points they receive based on how well they match up with each character. Some players might like it a lot more as well, but it's something to study for now until we can actually put it to the test.

Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76
i'm sorry i really dont understand what mock chart is and the numbers. can you explain? is this tier list suggestion?
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
I made a mock chart on my own last night just to see how it would look based on my own off the cuff guesses. It's not really anything scientific, as I'm sure players will disagree with some of the matchup outcomes, but here's an example of the tier list based on my findings and the points they receive based on how well they match up with each character. Some players might like it a lot more as well, but it's something to study for now until we can actually put it to the test.

Kabal - 155
Human Smoke - 145
Ermac - 135
Kung Lao - 134
Nightwolf - 132
Kano - 128
Reptile - 127
Robot Smoke - 126
Kitana - 126
Sonya - 114
Jax - 113
Sindel - 111
Unmasked Sub-zero - 108
Scorpion - 107
Stryker - 100
Jade - 93
Liu Kang - 91
Sektor - 88
Mileena - 87
Classic Sub-zero - 80
Cyrax - 77
Sheeva - 77
Shang Tsung - 76
I like it!, just that I dont accept Lao at the top yet haha but thats just me (IMO). Too vulnerable to be there and only has the inf.

I always debated that The top 3 was that: Kabal, Homo Smoke and Ermac. Not taking on player skills, by the numbers but it seems very ok to me.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
I mentally estimated 10 match sets with every character vs every character, for impossible match ups (there aren't many) I did a 9-1, for very hard match ups I did 8-2, difficult 7-3, challenging 6-4 and even 5-5. Again it's all based on my personal opinion. If a real 10 match set for each battle was done, the outcomes would likely be a little different for some and maybe totally different for others. But for example, 1 point difference for Kung and Nightwolf would tie them, and 1 point difference for Sonya and Jax could swap them, and the bottom three are all a toss up as we've said for a long time.

I don't want to go back over my calculations because then I would start tweaking them based on even less science. I did this straight up as a chart and added the numbers when I was done to prevent any character bias I might have. I personally think that it's a damn good tier list. It manages to illustrate how close some characters are while still generating an order. Kitana would have been a lot closer to Sonya but for her match ups I included the efficiency of the instant air fan as a factor, giving her a +1 in a lot of match ups. It all makes me a lot more interested to see what a real test would produce.
 
I mentally estimated 10 match sets with every character vs every character, for impossible match ups (there aren't many) I did a 9-1, for very hard match ups I did 8-2, difficult 7-3, challenging 6-4 and even 5-5. Again it's all based on my personal opinion. If a real 10 match set for each battle was done, the outcomes would likely be a little different for some and maybe totally different for others. But for example, 1 point difference for Kung and Nightwolf would tie them, and 1 point difference for Sonya and Jax could swap them, and the bottom three are all a toss up as we've said for a long time.

I don't want to go back over my calculations because then I would start tweaking them based on even less science. I did this straight up as a chart and added the numbers when I was done to prevent any character bias I might have. I personally think that it's a damn good tier list. It manages to illustrate how close some characters are while still generating an order. Kitana would have been a lot closer to Sonya but for her match ups I included the efficiency of the instant air fan as a factor, giving her a +1 in a lot of match ups. It all makes me a lot more interested to see what a real test would produce.
I do agree with just about everything on that list, although I don't have as much in depth experience with every character as most people here.

I would love to see your actual char vs. char breakdown on the chart, that's where I think I would be able to relate more, since I only play a few chars.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
I will make the listing into a color coded chart perhaps as an html file tomorrow.
 
Everything on that mock chart is looking good so far Shock. I'm interested in the matchups though. i'm guessing the tiers S and A+ all get 9-1 over sheeva am i correct?
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
http://ultimatemk.com/umk3mocktier.htm

This is the best I can do for now. I'm not very good at this stuff so I just threw it together using Front Page, but it should give everyone a much better idea of what's going on. Feel free to make match outcome suggestions and we can discuss the accuracy. Also check my math and continuity between rows and columns. I just add up the points to get placement. I'm not sure what the + and - on the SF3 tier lists represent, and when you add and subtract. I felt that adding the points worked well enough. It gives you an idea of how useful a character is overall based on say, 230 possible points.

First comment I will make is, I personally feel that the section of Sonya to Stryker can be one mid tier (100 to 114).
 
The + or - on the 3S tier list represent how far or below they are from the median number (or how much advantage they have over just a straight 5-5 matchup with everyone on average).

So for example on the 3S list there are 180 possible points. 90 would be 5-5 with everyone, and Yun is +32 above that level.

You could easily add the same to this, Kabal would be a +45 (pretty good and about right IMO, he's more overpowered than a lot of chars in games, although H Smoke prob is too).

It's not necessary really, it's shows the same data whether you read the total # or the +/-.


The only thing that amazes me is the matchups against Kabal overall. I don't even think they should be any higher, it's just astounding when you think about it that everyone is at such a distinct disadvantage.

He's just go so many tools there's no other way to interpret it though.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
That's basically what I figured with the + and -s. Again this was a really quick job and I didn't do a ton of thinking, it was mostly instinctive guesswork. The results could be and probably would somewhat different, but I don't think it'd be so much that it would make significant changes to much more than 4 or 5 specific character placements.

Juggernaut, then that would keep Kabal at 155, bring Human Smoke to 146, and Robot Smoke to 125, putting Kitana up one spot (just keeping track).

Hopefully a lot of players will have some insight. The old combined site tier list got like 50 individual responses.
 

O Juggernaut 0

Ambassador
For Stryker, he at least has a 6-4 match-up with Kano and 5-5 with Kabal. Both characters can't run jab him at all, but he can run jab them. That alone makes the match so much different and in favor of Stryker. Also, it's very easy for Stryker to get the infinite on these two, especially Kano in the corner.

Kabal vs Kung Lao is 7-3 in Kabal's favor imo. You can't use Kung Lao's teleport at all, it's a free spin everytime. The relaunch is easy on Kung Lao. Even dive kick pressure can get spun.

Usub vs Sheeva is 7-3 in uSub's favor imo. When we were playing casuals, my Sheeva could literally do nothing against uSub. It's hard for her to get in, and when she does she has a hard time keeping pressure. Also, uSub's HK locks her down pretty bad.

I also think uSub vs Kabal is 4-6 instead of 3-7. uSub isn't great against Kabal, but some of his tools work well against him. He can zone Kabal out pretty well, it's just when he gets in is when uSub is in trouble. So the match-up is still in Kabal's favor, but more around 4-6 imo.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
For Stryker, he at least has a 6-4 match-up with Kano and 5-5 with Kabal. Both characters can't run jab him at all, but he can run jab them. That alone makes the match so much different and in favor of Stryker. Also, it's very easy for Stryker to get the infinite on these two, especially Kano in the corner.

Kabal vs Kung Lao is 7-3 in Kabal's favor imo. You can't use Kung Lao's teleport at all, it's a free spin everytime. The relaunch is easy on Kung Lao. Even dive kick pressure can get spun.

Usub vs Sheeva is 7-3 in uSub's favor imo. When we were playing casuals, my Sheeva could literally do nothing against uSub. It's hard for her to get in, and when she does she has a hard time keeping pressure. Also, uSub's HK locks her down pretty bad.

I also think uSub vs Kabal is 4-6 instead of 3-7. uSub isn't great against Kabal, but some of his tools work well against him. He can zone Kabal out pretty well, it's just when he gets in is when uSub is in trouble. So the match-up is still in Kabal's favor, but more around 4-6 imo.

^^^^ I like the sound of that. I agree Stryker is much more useful than most people give him credit for, for all the reasons Tyler mentioned as well as his zoning ability w/ grenades and riot gun, and also the versatility of his Baton Throw. True they are all punishable but his anti-air capabilities are excellent, and Baton throw is just an awesome move as long as you're not stupid with it since it's very punishable. NightWolf and Stryker are my mains, and alot of the time when NW get's shut down, Stryker breaks people in half.....which strykes me as a bit odd. Plus easiest infinite in the game too, right?


Personally, I'd rank Stryker up there w/ Sonya, Jax and Sindel in B+ tier.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
For Stryker, he at least has a 6-4 match-up with Kano and 5-5 with Kabal. Both characters can't run jab him at all, but he can run jab them. That alone makes the match so much different and in favor of Stryker. Also, it's very easy for Stryker to get the infinite on these two, especially Kano in the corner.

Kabal vs Kung Lao is 7-3 in Kabal's favor imo. You can't use Kung Lao's teleport at all, it's a free spin everytime. The relaunch is easy on Kung Lao. Even dive kick pressure can get spun.

Usub vs Sheeva is 7-3 in uSub's favor imo. When we were playing casuals, my Sheeva could literally do nothing against uSub. It's hard for her to get in, and when she does she has a hard time keeping pressure. Also, uSub's HK locks her down pretty bad.

I also think uSub vs Kabal is 4-6 instead of 3-7. uSub isn't great against Kabal, but some of his tools work well against him. He can zone Kabal out pretty well, it's just when he gets in is when uSub is in trouble. So the match-up is still in Kabal's favor, but more around 4-6 imo.
Great insight! I will add a bit of detail why I think that the Kabal - H Smoke is 5-5 too and other stuff as well.

ALL OF THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY.

Kabal vs H Smoke different strenght/weakness 5/5

*Kabal doesnt has a counter for poking with long range LK and if he tries too is a free spear and 50% off.

*If Kabal leaves a blocked combo at HpHp its a free spear/tlknt again (this can be avoided on reaction by hit confirming the block and opting for the kick combo).

*Kabal got nothing to counter repeated sweeps at long range and he has to karajab his way in. by that a smart H Smoke would have run his out with a safe tlpt.

*H Smoke can run away all day by SMARTLY teleport his way out.

*Kabal can be relaunched all day by H Smoke, he cant relaunch H Smoke.

*H Smoke Air throw is rape.

*If H Smoke is caught jumping... Spin Dash thats it.

*On wakeup H Smoke has WAY more options than Kabal. Also karajabbin Kabal on wakeup is too safe for H Smoke.


Lao vs Sonya different strenght/weakness 4-6

*Inf is hard if you are not positioned right (spin jk, whiff dive, repeat) the other inf is very doable but not always (jp, whiff dive, aahp, repeat).

*Lao can be relaunched by her easily.

*She punish his blocked hk/lk with leg grab easily.

*Lao crossups SUKCS against her. Dive kick crossups shenanigans lead to nothing against her. She can punish with bike kick all his crossups even tlpts.

*He cant do almost nothing but kick combo to neutralize repeating sweeps.

*His big combo is almost useless aside from jump punch starters against her.



On other note:

I was talking to ded that sometimes the method of control can change or affect some outcomes.

There are natural advantages to play on Keyboard than a stick (hold back while doing other stuff like hat spin fdf and get the special and dont get thrown etc)

In a pad is WAY easier to glitch jab everything cause you use both hands fingers for block/run bumper buttons instead that your right hand as you would in a stick etc.

Arcade is WAY harder in some aspects too. R Smoke can do some really REALLY abusable option selects on pad like:

Running and doing the entire button taps for his 5 hit combo but be holding block at the same time. If the opponent sweeps you are already holding block and DB and its a free spear.

Its nasty believe me and that is HARD on a stick due to button placement. I think that should be noticed too on tier lists IMO
 

ded

Elder God
i'm at work right now and cant spend much time of it, but there are two things i'd like to mention:

1. Hanzo suck
2. Sheeva is the worst character in the game. Period! I dont see how she can beat anyone (maybe shang without morphs only), since once you trap her into corner she can do literaly nothing, and her gameplay, no matter what, will get her in the corner sooner or later if the other player is playing aggresive.

i will talk with hanzo and shock about some stuff i have in mind later.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
i'm at work right now and cant spend much time of it, but there are two things i'd like to mention:

1. I suck
2. Sheeva is the worst character in the game. Period! I dont see how she can beat anyone (maybe shang without morphs only), since once you trap her into corner she can do literaly nothing, and her gameplay, no matter what, will get her in the corner sooner or later if the other player is playing aggresive.

i will talk with hanzo and shock about some stuff i have in mind later.
Edited! ;)
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
For Stryker, he at least has a 6-4 match-up with Kano and 5-5 with Kabal. Both characters can't run jab him at all, but he can run jab them. That alone makes the match so much different and in favor of Stryker. Also, it's very easy for Stryker to get the infinite on these two, especially Kano in the corner.

Kabal vs Kung Lao is 7-3 in Kabal's favor imo. You can't use Kung Lao's teleport at all, it's a free spin everytime. The relaunch is easy on Kung Lao. Even dive kick pressure can get spun.

Usub vs Sheeva is 7-3 in uSub's favor imo. When we were playing casuals, my Sheeva could literally do nothing against uSub. It's hard for her to get in, and when she does she has a hard time keeping pressure. Also, uSub's HK locks her down pretty bad.

I also think uSub vs Kabal is 4-6 instead of 3-7. uSub isn't great against Kabal, but some of his tools work well against him. He can zone Kabal out pretty well, it's just when he gets in is when uSub is in trouble. So the match-up is still in Kabal's favor, but more around 4-6 imo.
I personally feel that even with the run jab favortism that Stryker still stands low chances vs Kabal, and I really don't think he has that much better chance vs Kabal than Kung Lao. 6/4 in favor of Kabal at best. Stryker vs Kano I could see 4/6,

Sub vs Sheeva, who's Sub we were you against? I can see a master Sub vs a good Sheeva being 7/3.

Smoke vs Kabal I can almost see being 5/5 but even as a Human Smoke player I think Kabal edges him out. 5/5 is fair nonetheless.

USub vs Kabal again, maybe a 4/6 but I think it'd be more likely a 3/7, we'll just have to wait and see if we can ever get some sets done for these characters.

Lao vs Sonya different strenght/weakness 4-6

Agreed.

In a pad is WAY easier to glitch jab everything cause you use both hands fingers for block/run bumper buttons instead that your right hand as you would in a stick etc.

I dunno about that.

Arcade is WAY harder in some aspects too. R Smoke can do some really REALLY abusable option selects on pad like:

Running and doing the entire button taps for his 5 hit combo but be holding block at the same time. If the opponent sweeps you are already holding block and DB and its a free spear.

Its nasty believe me and that is HARD on a stick due to button placement. I think that should be noticed too on tier lists IMO
I think the button arrangement on a stick makes it easier to do many things that crippling your hand on a pad.

I'll go over modifications and redo the list in a little bit.


Edit:
I split this off into a new thread.
 

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
I made some adjustments to the current chart, check them out. I'd like to see some discussion about Stryker vs Kabal and Stryker vs Kano.
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
Good stuff Matt...most of what you guys are discusing is pretty descent and true...Somehow, from personal experience and opinion I think that Kung Lao should actually step down a little...I think that he lacks tools to fight against characters like NW,Kano,Jax,kitana and maybe Sonya.
 

AREZ God of War

The Crazy BeastMaster
Good stuff Matt...most of what you guys are discusing is pretty descent and true...Somehow, from personal experience and opinion I think that Kung Lao should actually step down a little...I think that he lacks tools to fight against characters like NW,Kano,Jax,kitana and maybe Sonya.

Idk if it's more than just the absence of the j.P-starters, but I'd include Jade and Mileena, Jade more-so. Whenever I play as Lao, I have a very difficult time against any of the female ninjas, possibly just solely due to my play-style as him.
 

Tim Static

Adminerator
Good stuff Matt...most of what you guys are discusing is pretty descent and true...Somehow, from personal experience and opinion I think that Kung Lao should actually step down a little...I think that he lacks tools to fight against characters like NW,Kano,Jax,kitana and maybe Sonya.
Sindelly too! :p
 

Dark_Rob

Noob
Alot of good stuff in here from all of you guys, keep it going. I personally feel H.Smoke vs. Kabal is 5-5 also because its such a chess match. But it really depends on the players to. These kinds of matchup charts are only meant to be when 2 players of extremely high level and equal skill are playing.
For example I had Shock over my house last weekend and we played alot of Kabal vs H.Smoke. In order for me to fight Kabal I NEED to be able to bait bad spins out of him. If I can do that I have a shot. If I cant Im dead.
I could not bait Shock for the life of me. He just wouldnt spin. The only time he would spin is when I wasnt baiting it or expecting it, or in a combo. In 15 or so matches I might have gotten maybe 2 bad spins out of him.
Watching Shocks Kabal vs my H.Smoke you would think its a 9-1 matchup in Kabals favor. Which of course is not true.
Its important to remember this has nothing to do with the characters, but rather the difference in skill level between Shock and myself.
Now keeping the same 2 characters lets replace me with Moe30w or Juggernaut, two people much more on Shocks level and run the series again. You would see a totally different outcome. And it would likely be far more even which is why I say I think its a 5-5 matchup.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
This is good shit and I have a lot to say on it, but am short on time as of late. I remember Remz or someone making a tier list like this...I made my own adjustments to that based on my experience and such which I will share another day (that list is very much the same as this one!)

I just had time to look over the Kitana and Usub numbers and I gotta say, Kitana's are almost exactly what I have except for a few which I will list below:

Kitana (4) vs H.Smoke/Ermac (6)
* The teleport gets them out of danger for free.
* Kitana can't jump back and air fan safely. They can tp her on reaction for a free combo.
* The simple fact of how it takes three combos at least for Kitana to win and only two for the ninjas.

The teleport is the MAIN reason for her getting a 4 in these matchups, but it goes along with the fact that they do much more damage with less effort.

Maybe she gets a 4.5 or 5 against Ermac, but it is still an uphill battle for her.

With that said, I think that her matchup vs Scorpion is closer to a 5-5 or 5.5-4.5 for her due to how the teleport shuts down her non instant air fans.

Kitana (Eight) vs Classic Sub (2) *damn smilies prevent the number 8 haha
This matchup is a nightmare for Csub. Outside of his great Male Ninja normals, he is so unsafe and punished and pushed to the wall with the fan in the combo. (ie: iceball is jumped over with a jk->air fan to aalp to blocked jk setup for rjs to the corner) He makes one mistake and he is in the corner.

All Csub has going for him against Kitana are shenanigans and Male Ninja normals. Not enough IMO.

Now onto Usub

Usub (3) vs Rsmoke (7):
Once Rsmoke goes invisible, sub literally cannot do any ice move outside of clone or he gets punished with a free tp combo. Even if he is not invisible he can't do ice safely anywhere but just outside sweep. Up close ice is hit by free spear. ALL options heavily favor Rsmoke and give him free invis.

This is one of Usubs worst matchups. What he has going for him is blocking a spear and pushing Rsmoke to the corner for inf jabs lol

Usub (4) vs Scorpion (6):
The Teleport edges out sub. He can't do non-clone ice moves and a good Scorpion is going to be very patient and wait out Usub to punish him for all of his mistakes.

Usub (Eight) vs Cyrax (2)
One of Cyrax's absolute worst matchups. Ice punishes net and bomb throws...even if net hits, sub gets the damage because he recovers faster. Once sub is ahead on life, Cyrax can't do anything. Naked bombs* get punished by ice every time.

* NOTE: A naked bomb is one that is thrown while Cyrax's opponent is able to move around freely.

I really like how you listed Usub as a 6-4 over Jade. A knowledgeable Usub player has nothing to fear from projectile invincibility. Jade players like to think they have the upperhand. I can't tell you how many times I've hit a Jade player with PI on into the a clone. Defensive jabs really stop Jade's PI in this aspect as it makes it a non-factor.