MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

[Marinjuana]

I just don’t see how any of this is better than warlock. His combo potential stinks and the projectile is slow as hell. The meteors are okay but are almost as unsafe as sparks without the benefits of launching.

I don't think it's better than Warlock, but I think Soultaker offers a unique enough play style to justify its own existence.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The damage nerf hit him hard. His difficult matchups became worse. I’m still using him, but I have an alt.

Who is your Alt and do you think the patch made him unviable? Are you only using him on a few matchups?

 

[M2Dave]

Shake is a good move but not over powered by any means. Would like to see the ninjas in one variation. Shake, lift and slide.

So would I although any variation without ground eruption will seem awkward and likely underwhelming. However, shake would make one of the best anti-zoning tools while lift could be used for combos and whiff punishing. Slide could be used as a pseudo mix up with b+1,d+2 and EX slide has the most practical krushing blow requirement out of all the ninja moves. So who knows. There may be some potential.

As far as the current meta goes, I think Warlock Shang Tsung is still good, but the struggle post patch is apparent. I am getting zoned out by characters like Geras and Sonya who, you would think, Shang Tsung would zone out by design. Then you have teleport characters like Cetrion, Kitana, Scorpion, and Skarlet who can turtle you out and force you to approach, which is a major problem when you are at a life deficit.

1,1,4 remains a godlike auto-shimmy string, but the mid attacks are far less impressive. b+3,u+4 is risky to use on a consistent basis. b+3,d+4 is good but leads to nothing. The 5% damage reduction on all combos makes things certainly a lot worse.

I have been performing better with Highborn Kitana and Seeing Double which is not a good sign. I am open to any suggestions.

 

[PreNerf_]

I don't think it's better than Warlock, but I think Soultaker offers a unique enough play style to justify its own existence.

What's sad is i was using warlock and I just started using the ninjas and it's almost better than both tournament variations now and that's saying something cause everyone knew that the ninjas wouldn't be tournament viable lol.

 

[PreNerf_]

So would I although any variation without ground eruption will seem awkward and likely underwhelming. However, shake would make one of the best anti-zoning tools while lift could be used for combos and whiff punishing. Slide could be used as a pseudo mix up with b+1,d+2 and EX slide has the most practical krushing blow requirement out of all the ninja moves. So who knows. There may be some potential.

As far as the current meta goes, I think Warlock Shang Tsung is still good, but the struggle post patch is apparent. I am getting zoned out by characters like Geras and Sonya who, you would think, Shang Tsung would zone out by design. Then you have teleport characters like Cetrion, Kitana, Scorpion, and Skarlet who can turtle you out and force you to approach, which is a major problem when you are at a life deficit.

1,1,4 remains a godlike auto-shimmy string, but the mid attacks are far less impressive. b+3,u+4 is risky to use on a consistent basis. b+3,d+4 is good but leads to nothing. The 5% damage reduction on all combos makes things certainly a lot worse.

I have been performing better with Highborn Kitana and Seeing Double which is not a good sign. I am open to any suggestions.

Pre patch he already got zoned out by some pretty likely characters, one of them being baraka. My little brother told me that was what they were saying was baraka beat him out and i didn't believe him until I played a baraka that knew what to do and he threw the flag down for damage and raped me round after round. Now I can't even hang in zoning wars with characters like Liu Kang which is sad. Only people that don't play shang at a high level don't see it. He already had a hard time with half the cast and mainly other zoners in the game like cetrion and skarlet... Now he doesn't even hold a chance against those characters. They can just zone out and teleport away and he can't do shit. The thing that pisses me off so much that I want to throw my controller everytime is losing to my oppenents life being4% or 7% or 10% or 15% it's so irritating knowing i would have won the match....

 

[PreNerf_]

Btw @M2Dave try the ninjas , shake slide and lift. That's honestly the first time I played anything in the game accept a tournament variation since I got the game. They don't get alot of damage but their kinda fun. Good luck getting all the kbs though.

 

[legion666]

I still don't think Shang deserved the damage nerf, but he's far from worthless. If you can jail from +11 you can do so from +10. His S1 is 7f so it's really no big deal.

Calm down dude, he's still okay despite the damage nerf.

His s1 is 8 frames as far as I remember

 

[legion666]

So would I although any variation without ground eruption will seem awkward and likely underwhelming. However, shake would make one of the best anti-zoning tools while lift could be used for combos and whiff punishing. Slide could be used as a pseudo mix up with b+1,d+2 and EX slide has the most practical krushing blow requirement out of all the ninja moves. So who knows. There may be some potential.

As far as the current meta goes, I think Warlock Shang Tsung is still good, but the struggle post patch is apparent. I am getting zoned out by characters like Geras and Sonya who, you would think, Shang Tsung would zone out by design. Then you have teleport characters like Cetrion, Kitana, Scorpion, and Skarlet who can turtle you out and force you to approach, which is a major problem when you are at a life deficit.

1,1,4 remains a godlike auto-shimmy string, but the mid attacks are far less impressive. b+3,u+4 is risky to use on a consistent basis. b+3,d+4 is good but leads to nothing. The 5% damage reduction on all combos makes things certainly a lot worse.

I have been performing better with Highborn Kitana and Seeing Double which is not a good sign. I am open to any suggestions.

Lift actually has a practical KB in conjunction with f232 string. If you try to Flawless Block the the third hit, which all good players do, the f24xxLift will catch you just before you press block and you get the KB. And Shake actually has a KB on regular version- just shake 2 projectiles in a row. You just get 26% instead of 28% as with The amplified version. You can get that by shaking a projectile and than doing an Amp Shake on the opponent’s wake up, if he wakes up you get a KB.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I still don't think Shang deserved the damage nerf, but he's far from worthless. If you can jail from +11 you can do so from +10. His S1 is 7f so it's really no big deal.

Calm down dude, he's still okay despite the damage nerf.

S1 is actually 8f startup and his D1/D3 is +10 on hit making it a 2f window.
I don't remember but my brother said it used to be +11 on D3 before August patch making it a 3f window.
I can still jail offline rather consistently but online it can be difficult depending on the ping or rollback.

Personally I think he can jail from B3 better since it take more than 3f to jump out and D4 jails into s3 since its +17 and it combos into ground skulls which is a good mix.
With the D4 it can require a micro dash to connect at max range but close up it jails into s3 without micro-dashing.

 

[legion666]

Real talk though, if NRS ever wants to see Soul Steal used in competitive play they need to come up with some kind of safe morphback mechanic. Because it isn’t a 5:5 MU when you turn into your opponent, you become a sitting duck if they know when the recovery frames are coming. Like in I2 atom would become a 1:9 MU for the opponent when he turned small, there were repercussions, but he could still turn back earlier to avoid getting punished. Here the reward isn’t even comparable and you can’t decide when to turn back.
I would even be fine with spending a bar of defense to turn back safely and whenever I want.

 

[WhooFlungPoo]

Scorpion is out of fucking control, real talk

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Real talk though, if NRS ever wants to see Soul Steal used in competitive play they need to come up with some kind of safe morphback mechanic. Because it isn’t a 5:5 MU when you turn into your opponent, you become a sitting duck if they know when the recovery frames are coming. Like in I2 atom would become a 1:9 MU for the opponent when he turned small, there were repercussions, but he could still turn back earlier to avoid getting punished. Here the reward isn’t even comparable and you can’t decide when to turn back.
I would even be fine with spending a bar of defense to turn back safely and whenever I want.

There are knockdown setups but I get it

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I don't think it's better than Warlock, but I think Soultaker offers a unique enough play style to justify its own existence.

I guess? I thought we we were speaking in terms of tournament viability, which is what most of us here care about.

 

[Marinjuana]

I guess? I thought we we were speaking in terms of tournament viability, which is what most of us here care about.

I think tournament viability is a pretty subjective thing but I think you could use Spellmaster/Soultaker as a complementary character or part of a team. Probably not strong enough to justify being a loyalist's main. But the point really was that no one talks about this variation at all because the consensus is that it's complete buns. I don't agree, so I'm trying to increase discussion about it.

And if you point is like, "Well why would I ever play Soultaker when Warlock is better?", then I would say that there's usually a better character than the one you are using but despite that, most people play characters with playstyles they enjoy.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I guess? I thought we we were speaking in terms of tournament viability, which is what most of us here care about.

I think he is talking about Spellmaster.
Personally I think its a decent variation and can be used in certain MU's in tournament but I wouldn't say its better than Warlock at all.

To me I see them being effective in different ways while Warlock is used as a zoner mainly with good space control with GS being pretty safe at max range warlock is better with keep out and zoning.
But Spellmaster seems to be better close to mid range in the s3/F2/B1/Soulsteal range and I feel it has better staggers using the BF1 cancels which can be -4 on block with B1/21 and -8 on B3/114.
The fact Spellmaster can cancel off his auto shimmy is pretty good and he does have decent range on DB1 and Amped BF1 even though DB1 is punishable. It just feels like he has better options up close. I agree he doesn't get very good damage but there are several characters that get sub 20% like Yaas Queen, Ancestrial Gift, Hunker down not counting KB's and they seem effective.
I also like the Soul Well setups that allow him to heal pretty safely vs certain characters.
I think there is uses for that variation but Warlock is definitely better in most matchups.

 

[haketh]

Been messing around with things & for the third variation I would go for like Lift, Shake, & Tornado. Slide is cool but eh & Superkick is pretty wack from my testing.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

I think tournament viability is a pretty subjective thing but I think you could use Spellmaster/Soultaker as a complementary character or part of a team. Probably not strong enough to justify being a loyalist's main. But the point really was that no one talks about this variation at all because the consensus is that it's complete buns. I don't agree, so I'm trying to increase discussion about it.

And if you point is like, "Well why would I ever play Soultaker when Warlock is better?", then I would say that there's usually a better character than the one you are using but despite that, most people play characters with playstyles they enjoy.

Well in the context of maining a character, having two viable variations is important. Shinnok in MKX had two good variations that were better in different matchups than the other one. It feels like shang essentially has one variation since I can’t think of a single matchup where spellmaster helps rather than hinders.

 

[SaSSolino]

Been messing around with things & for the third variation I would go for like Lift, Shake, & Tornado. Slide is cool but eh & Superkick is pretty wack from my testing.

I'll take Superkick over Lift anyday since I get to keep the fire things, plus the cancels are nice. Also Slide is pretty good with Tornado since you can use them together as a meterless launcher.

That said Fire Tornado would need a major startup buff to be viable.

 

[legion666]

There are knockdown setups but I get it

I lab this character a lot. Have set ups versus almost entire cast. You need to end a combo in a knockdown which is at least +25 in order to safely morph back, and you still loose your turn. You don’t always have an ability to convert into such knockdowns.
Besides, you have to open your opponent up to get a combo, it isn’t like you are guaranteed to get one before you morph back. Some characters can even full combo punish you for throwing them while morphed. Like it makes me sad that in order to use Soul Steal you have to put in time and keep the whole cast in your head, and even if you have done all that it still can’t be a viable competitive strategy right now.

 

[PreNerf_]

His s1 is 8 frames as far as I remember

It's 7 , it should jail just fine but I'm having an extremely difficult time with it online. In the lab and in offline fights it works Everytime. All I know is that it worked online before the patch Everytime.

 

[PreNerf_]

I c

I lab this character a lot. Have set ups versus almost entire cast. You need to end a combo in a knockdown which is at least +25 in order to safely morph back, and you still loose your turn. You don’t always have an ability to convert into such knockdowns.
Besides, you have to open your opponent up to get a combo, it isn’t like you are guaranteed to get one before you morph back. Some characters can even full combo punish you for throwing them while morphed. Like it makes me sad that in order to use Soul Steal you have to put in time and keep the whole cast in your head, and even if you have done all that it still can’t be a viable competitive strategy right now.

completely agree. I have labbed setups for almost the whole cast and i don't know how many times i have tried to open someone up and couldn't then your forced to block when you know the switch is coming and just hold it till they are hopefully in recovery frames from something. What really sucks is if they get a touch on you and juggle you in the air and you morph exactly as you wake up and they combo you twice. As it stands right now. Morph isn't a viable option in competitive play. Everytime I come up against a player that I know their character, first thing i say to myself is ok i can do a big combo with this character. Second thing i think about is well if I use this move it could mean i lose the set, so the only time I even think about using it ever anymore is if they have an extremely large lifelead and I know it's very slim odds to win without bigger damage. Even then it's just too risky to use. I have lost too many rounds to using soulsteal.

 

[legion666]

It's 7 , it should jail just fine but I'm having an extremely difficult time with it online. In the lab and in offline fights it works Everytime. All I know is that it worked online before the patch Everytime.

It’s 8

 

[legion666]

I c
completely agree. I have labbed setups for almost the whole cast and i don't know how many times i have tried to open someone up and couldn't then your forced to block when you know the switch is coming and just hold it till they are hopefully in recovery frames from something. What really sucks is if they get a touch on you and juggle you in the air and you morph exactly as you wake up and they combo you twice. As it stands right now. Morph isn't a viable option in competitive play. Everytime I come up against a player that I know their character, first thing i say to myself is ok i can do a big combo with this character. Second thing i think about is well if I use this move it could mean i lose the set, so the only time I even think about using it ever anymore is if they have an extremely large lifelead and I know it's very slim odds to win without bigger damage. Even then it's just too risky to use. I have lost too many rounds to using soulsteal.

And it isn’t just losing your turn when the morphback happens, there are some frames during its animation where you can’t block, so if timed right your opponent can get a combo every time he knows you will morph back.

 

[t3kwytch3r]

And it isn’t just losing your turn when the morphback happens, there are some frames during its animation where you can’t block, so if timed right your opponent can get a combo every time he knows you will morph back.

I'd like to know exactly how many frames it is that you can't block. It doesn't feel super punishable, even when you're prepared to hit the morphback you gotta time it perfectly. I say this as a shang player and opponent. The safest ways i've found to morphback are to hit a throw that sends them far or just shimmy backwards. Preferably as close to the morphback window as possible.

In general, when morphed i like to make the opponent THINK i'm gonna go mad offensive and capitalise on damage, but really i'm just gonna catch them in a throw or use their zoning to keep em fullscreen. If you forward dash while theyre getting up, they tend to roll, so a throw catches them. Or if you're real good, use a combo string to punish the roll.

Still, it would be nice to have some option to make the morphback itself safe. Whoever suggested spending a defense bar to morph manually is a genius. I'd also like to be able to cancel the morphback animation into FB lol.

I think, not certain, that you can delay morphback by holding block. If you can, be useful to defend against someone who thinks they timed their unsafe launcher string perfectly. It still wont be your turn in most cases, but they shouldn't be able to punish.

 

[legion666]

I'd like to know exactly how many frames it is that you can't block. It doesn't feel super punishable, even when you're prepared to hit the morphback you gotta time it perfectly. I say this as a shang player and opponent. The safest ways i've found to morphback are to hit a throw that sends them far or just shimmy backwards. Preferably as close to the morphback window as possible.

In general, when morphed i like to make the opponent THINK i'm gonna go mad offensive and capitalise on damage, but really i'm just gonna catch them in a throw or use their zoning to keep em fullscreen. If you forward dash while theyre getting up, they tend to roll, so a throw catches them. Or if you're real good, use a combo string to punish the roll.

Still, it would be nice to have some option to make the morphback itself safe. Whoever suggested spending a defense bar to morph manually is a genius. I'd also like to be able to cancel the morphback animation into FB lol.

I think, not certain, that you can delay morphback by holding block. If you can, be useful to defend against someone who thinks they timed their unsafe launcher string perfectly. It still wont be your turn in most cases, but they shouldn't be able to punish.

I am not sure about the exact frames, but I am familiar with the timing, I can consistently hit Shang while he is unable to block if I am looking for it. The easiest way is a set situation, like a restand, or off the hitstun, when you know he is going into recovery and can’t delay the morph back by staying in a block animation.

Like I mentioned before throw isn’t always a good idea. For example Geras’s throw leaves him close and the animation is so long that normal Soul Steal is guaranteed to expire. There isn’t enough hit advantage for you to safely morphback after, and Geras can punish you with his wake up or at least start his pressure/throw game.

And yes I am the one suggesting the safe morphback or early morphback at the cost of a defensive bar.