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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Corpse Drop Frame Data being different depending on Crouching vs Standing makes total sense, is their another issue with it?
Corpse drop is an overhead. You cannot block crouching.

While I agree and appreciate this perspective, when has NRS ever been good at patching hitbox inconsistencies?
Point taken. The community needs to continue holding them accountable. They have fixed major issues in the past such as the online gameplay and most recently the fiasco with the Towers of Time. Every time there is outrage they listen. I will do my part and rant on the next podcast with REO and Tom. LOL.

Raiden can actually f32 after blocking the first spark, and it will advance him quickly enough that the second spark just whiffs. A bunch of characters can make the second hit whiff in a similar fashion but for some the execution is quite tough (the dashes in azeez’s video are tough).

Raiden can also flawless block the second hit and f4 into a full combo.
From my testing, the dashes are not only tough but inconsistent. I did not design the move so I am not sure what its functionality is supposed to consist of, but I cannot stand the unpredictability. You should either be able to dash the second hit or not. The regular skulls should hit a crouch-blocking opponent or not. The corpse drop should be -16 on block or not. Enough of the randomness already.

By the way, Raiden's f+4 only connects up close. No Shang Tsung player should ever be finishing strings with ground eruption. The move has clearly been designed not be utilized like Shinnok's hell sparks, which would be overpowered in slow-paced game like this one. I have certain theories about the ground eruption that I would like to share, but I have to put them to the test against tournament players to see whether they are gimmicks or viable strategies.

So how is 2nd variation spellmasters amp df3 meant to be used?
How is Spellmaster meant to be used in general? LOL. Nobody knows. The variation seems very bad.
 

haketh

Noob
I really gotta run long sets with Kabal players, I’m so lost right now of where to go to start figuring stuff out in this MU. Everyone other MU I’m starting to form a game plan but I’m so just ?????? about the Kabal MU right now.
 

F6TUS6AT6R

Tarkatan Specialist
Idk if this is the place for it but im putting it here as it seems to be a general discussion. While i was playing as shang i noticed her sounded a lot like terminator. Dont know if this was intentional or not. yt video
 

SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
@SaSSolino
I think it was you that mentioned B3/D3 looking similar and being very string mix so I figured I'd share my new found tech to counter it.

Shang has B3D4(low low a 10f) and B3U4 which is a low OH that has a gynormous gap 14f gap to be exact. Then he has D3 which is 7f startup and -2 ob and if done within 3f it jails into his 112/124.

The tech I discovered is a universal OS that beats both options of shanges D3 xx 114 and B3 options on block.
Its not really an OS but functions like one.

You block either option D3/B3 and buffer D1, D1 if done in the right timing the first D1 beats out the D3 114 and the second beats out the B3U4 into full combo punish.
You can time it so that the B3D4 is also beat but its close to a 2 frame window so its not very consistent.
Nice find.

As for B3U4/B3D4 its reactable and fuzzy blockable. You block low until the D4 would come out and let off down to block the Overhead. At least a 4 frame window to block the overhead every time. So its not a true mixup offline but online its a 2 frame window and I don't think anyone will be consistently blocking the mix or reacting to the overhead with standing jab which has a 14f gap so 7f window to tap it before it becomes active and online its a 4f window to s1(with 7f jabs).

Like everyone in the cast they are monumentally higher tier Online vs Offline.
I don't think I've ever been hit by the b3d4 b3u4 mixup yet, I literally fuzzy block it by mistake. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's unviable, but relying on it to open people up won't get you too far.
 
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Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
That voice does not belong to Cary. The line is a shang tsung line but the voice is definitely not.
I don't know what he herd but what I hear on my screen is definitely Arnold Schwarzenegger who is saying It Has Begun! And boon did tease Arnold in a weird abstract picture on twitter with Surprise in quotes.
I don't hear it. But let's take a second and think about this. Does that really sound like the Terminator? It sounds like Arnold in one of his action movies, but when he's the Terminator he talks in a very monotone voice. I would expect his dialogue to be less emotive and more "I am a cybernetic organism"
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
I don't hear it. But let's take a second and think about this. Does that really sound like the Terminator? It sounds like Arnold in one of his action movies, but when he's the Terminator he talks in a very monotone voice. I would expect his dialogue to be less emotive and more "I am a cybernetic organism"
Its not his terminator voice but its either Arnold or an impression of Arnold I'm just saying it's likely.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Let's talk about some of the good things about Soultaker/Spellmaster has. (Soultaker sounds cooler damn it!)

His DB1 Crashing Flames Amp is much safer than Ground Inferno. You can throw out the normal version safely at mid ranges and the amplify can make it safe at the end of strings. Depending on the range and the character, the second hit may be punishable by flawless block attacks(especially Geras/Shao/Frost maybe more) but most of the time you can avoid this with the right string/normal and spacing. In Warlock, you can mixup F242 to prevent flawless blocking by using ground inferno and skull, but basically every option you do besides F243/F242 is unsafe. In Soultaker, you have F24~DB1 Amp which can blow up flawless block attempts, is -6 on block and leaves Shang at a good range where he can check with another Crashing Flames or Soul Steal. This is actually a situation where I think the normal DF3 might be useful for messing with FB timings but I haven't gotten there yet. He can (relatively) safely do B3, B3U2, 3U2 into DB1 Amp which lands him healthy chunks of damage on hit. This general idea applies to Crashing Flames in a lot of situations, and it's a strong zoning tool in the mid range. I think it works well with Soul Steal too, because it makes people want to jump or squirm out of range.

Soultaker's BF1 projectile is slow because you need to get into the stance but it's useful none the less. Once you are in the stance, it comes out in 22 frames and does good damage and knocks down. The amplified version does a lot of damage and it low profiles high projectiles for a portion of the animation. The cancel can be used for some cheekiness. The move trades well and it can help you can into better ranges or just to zone along with Soul Jar healing.

Soul Jar is a little slow, but it's justifiably slow as you can get a lot of healing from it. Some characters will make you risk a lot to use it but not all can really pressure you like that from range. If you land a DB1 Amp with Jar out, the opponent gets knocked down and then feels pressured to stop you from healing yourself for 80. Projectile trades work out better when you have the healing aspect. This is something that's gonna take a lot of work with different matchups and whatnot but I think it's just a good tool. And personally, if I feel like I can get healing in a matchup, that makes me more comfortable playing the mirror match.

DF3 is DF3, I guess they just felt that he didn't need this move to be very strong but as time goes on I suspect people find more usage for it.

So you know it's early but right now but I just try to zone/heal and try to get them to respect my mid range by being aggressive with Soul Steal and DB1. And then I can go for more of Shang's forward moving offense. I don't know if the variation is any good but I think it works, and it's very fun to play.
 
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SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
I'm so happy with how Shang turned out. He fits me like a glove!

Let's talk about some of the good things about Soultaker/Spellmaster has. (Soultaker sounds cooler damn it!)

His DB1 Crashing Flames Amp is much safer than Ground Inferno. You can throw out the normal version safely at mid ranges and the amplify can make it safe at the end of strings. Depending on the range and the character, the second hit may be punishable by flawless block attacks(especially Geras/Shao/Frost maybe more) but most of the time you can avoid this with the right string/normal and spacing. In Warlock, you can mixup F242 to prevent flawless blocking by using ground inferno and skull, but basically every option you do besides F243/F242 is unsafe. In Soultaker, you have F24~DB1 Amp which can blow up flawless block attempts, is -6 on block and leaves Shang at a good range where he can check with another Crashing Flames or Soul Steal. This is actually a situation where I think the normal DF3 might be useful for messing with FB timings but I haven't gotten there yet. He can (relatively) safely do B3, B3U2, 3U2 into DB1 Amp which lands him healthy chunks of damage on hit. This general idea applies to Crashing Flames in a lot of situations, and it's a strong zoning tool in the mid range. I think it works well with Soul Steal too, because it makes people want to jump or squirm out of range.

Soultaker's BF1 projectile is slow because you need to get into the stance but it's useful none the less. Once you in the stance, it comes out in 22 frames and does good damage and knocks down. The amplified version does a lot of damage and it low profiles high projectiles for a portion of the animation. The cancel can be used for some cheekiness. The move trades well and it can help you can into better ranges or just to zone along with Soul Jar healing.

Soul Jar is a little slow, but it's justifiably slow as you can get a lot of healing from it. Some characters will make you risk a lot to use it but not all can really pressure you like that from range. If you land a DB1 Amp with Jar out, the opponent gets knocked down and then feels pressured to stop you from healing yourself for 80. Projectile trades work out better when you have the healing aspect. This is something that's gonna take a lot of work with different matchups and whatnot but I think it's just a good tool. And personally, if I feel like I can get healing in a matchup, that makes me more comfortable playing the mirror match.

DF3 is DF3, I guess they just felt that he didn't need this move to be very strong but as time goes on I suspect people find more usage for it.

So you know it's early but right now but I just try to zone/heal and try to get them to respect my mid range by being aggressive with Soul Steal and DB1. And then I can go for more of Shang's forward moving offense. I don't know if the variation is any good but I think it works, and it's very fun to play.
I'm not a fan of that variation personally. It seems more rushdown oriented with the cancels, but that Soul Jar needs to be used after a knockdown, meaning you won't get oki, and that's not great when you are trying to get in and force some pressure.

I've made a different custom variation for rushdown and Shang works surprising well even with a more aggressive playstyle, but Spellmaster's design seems mediocre at best.
 
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LawAbidingCitizen

Bomb Setups & Ball Rolls(Mileena/Cyrax)
I'm so happy with how Shang turned out. He fits me like a glove!
Same here I didn't feel anybody fit my playstyle in fact I felt every character lacked where I wanted it. Not saying the cast aren't effective but just wasn't me.
Shang Tsung changed all that for me. He is definitely great in every way, footsie character, good pokes, good zoning(not the best but very good) he is like a jack of all trades but master of none which I think fits him. Where I think he shines is unique to Shang:
- Soulsteal: has amazing range and hotbox, jumpers beware. It has the ability to tip the scales in his favor. I was playing against Scorpion which I feel out footsies, zones(counter) and has above average close up. Since Shang is a footsie character it sucks being against Scorps TP(Fuck Neutral) but I'm able to change into Scorpion for 6 seconds or 9seconds if I spend meter which I feel is worth the bar. This gives me a damage buff which makes me hurt worse and I have the same tools in this fight now. Its super cool to have this.
I feel Shang is honest for obvious reasons not getting anything for free but he isn't bad at all.
  • Corpse drop is an amazing zoning tool at 26f startup. And that Amped low and the range its disgusting and I love it.
  • Ground Skulls has some hotbox issues against airborne females and Liu but its a great keep out tool that's hit confirmable into combo. Its unsafe against many if flawless blocked but good none the less.
  • Straight Skull: is a very fast high projectile that has wiffing issues on crouch block opponents but is easily on the list of top projectiles. Probably not Baraka or Sonya status because its High High for 1 bar and High high Mid for two bars.

Buttons are great:
  • B1 a 14f mid that advances and a 17f mid reaches farther than starting position.
  • B3 a 10f low doesn't have much range but has a low profiling hitbox.
  • 11f high starter 3U2 which has amazing range and has a very good hitbox and shang steps back after making it hard to get beat out easily one of his best starters and wiff punishers.
I could go on but I don't think I need to.
 
Let's talk about some of the good things about Soultaker/Spellmaster has. (Soultaker sounds cooler damn it!)

His DB1 Crashing Flames Amp is much safer than Ground Inferno. You can throw out the normal version safely at mid ranges and the amplify can make it safe at the end of strings. Depending on the range and the character, the second hit may be punishable by flawless block attacks(especially Geras/Shao/Frost maybe more) but most of the time you can avoid this with the right string/normal and spacing. In Warlock, you can mixup F242 to prevent flawless blocking by using ground inferno and skull, but basically every option you do besides F243/F242 is unsafe. In Soultaker, you have F24~DB1 Amp which can blow up flawless block attempts, is -6 on block and leaves Shang at a good range where he can check with another Crashing Flames or Soul Steal. This is actually a situation where I think the normal DF3 might be useful for messing with FB timings but I haven't gotten there yet. He can (relatively) safely do B3, B3U2, 3U2 into DB1 Amp which lands him healthy chunks of damage on hit. This general idea applies to Crashing Flames in a lot of situations, and it's a strong zoning tool in the mid range. I think it works well with Soul Steal too, because it makes people want to jump or squirm out of range.

Soultaker's BF1 projectile is slow because you need to get into the stance but it's useful none the less. Once you are in the stance, it comes out in 22 frames and does good damage and knocks down. The amplified version does a lot of damage and it low profiles high projectiles for a portion of the animation. The cancel can be used for some cheekiness. The move trades well and it can help you can into better ranges or just to zone along with Soul Jar healing.

Soul Jar is a little slow, but it's justifiably slow as you can get a lot of healing from it. Some characters will make you risk a lot to use it but not all can really pressure you like that from range. If you land a DB1 Amp with Jar out, the opponent gets knocked down and then feels pressured to stop you from healing yourself for 80. Projectile trades work out better when you have the healing aspect. This is something that's gonna take a lot of work with different matchups and whatnot but I think it's just a good tool. And personally, if I feel like I can get healing in a matchup, that makes me more comfortable playing the mirror match.

DF3 is DF3, I guess they just felt that he didn't need this move to be very strong but as time goes on I suspect people find more usage for it.

So you know it's early but right now but I just try to zone/heal and try to get them to respect my mid range by being aggressive with Soul Steal and DB1. And then I can go for more of Shang's forward moving offense. I don't know if the variation is any good but I think it works, and it's very fun to play.
I honestly think his db1 is the best thing he has in this variation, even though it's a base move for him.

While his combo damage is much lower in this variation (almost 10% lower on average), one advantage of this db1 is that the opponent can't quick fall out of it. So he gets some inescapable combo damage with this variation.

I get frustrated with his soul heal thing because of how unsafe it is on startup and after you input the heal command. For those that don't know, you HAVE to input the heal command before the urn expires. If it expires then all the damage you did was wasted. Not a fan of that.

I tried practicing this variation first to see of there were any hidden gems, but honestly I don't think it's worth it right now. I still feel like Shang can get counter zoned too easily and while the inescapable ground 'juggles' with db1 are nice, his juggle damage is too much lower and his zoning is too much weaker than his other variation.

Maybe this is supposed to be the footsie variation, but that screw up his healing opportunities because of how slow it is.
 
Please read my post. There is a damage buff on everything except krushing and fatal blows.
Fatal blows are affected by the damage boost as well, it’s just that most of the time the timer on the morph expires before most of the FB’s animation is done. I’ve just tried morphing into Erron and did his FB immediately, it did 380+. And when I did the Amp Soul Steal ,so I get boost for a longer period, it did 390+. Pretty sure normally Erron’s FB does like 340.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
So now that we know everyone can body ground skulls on block... what's the gameplan with shang up close? I was pretty much staggering the F2 string and the 114 string and throwing in grounds skulls and throws. But seems that's a HORRIBLE plan after watching that video lol.
 
You cant soul steal Geras as Shang Tsung. I just tried multiple times, you do the move but dont become Geras. I even amplify it and it wont work
 

Johnny Based Cage

The Shangest of Tsungs
I wonder if there might be any value in ending corner combos as Spellmaster by charging df3. You can hold it and then cancel it to bait wakeups/rolls maybe, or let it go to meaty them and gain some plus frames (possibly). Probably not worth it but just a thought.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
So now that we know everyone can body ground skulls on block... what's the gameplan with shang up close? I was pretty much staggering the F2 string and the 114 string and throwing in grounds skulls and throws. But seems that's a HORRIBLE plan after watching that video lol.
The video is misleading. First of all, no Shang Tsung player should ever finish any string with close ground eruption. The far ground eruption can be used for zoning, but space the move in such a way that only the tip hits and you dramatically reduce the risk of getting punished. Limit ground eruption use against Cetrion and Geras as well as any character with a long-range fatal blow when they gain access to one. Shang Tsung is best played at max far ground distance because his tools complement this range very well (i.e., straight skull, f+4, micro dash f+2, micro dash f+3, forward dash throw, soul steal, and corpse drop). You can also use the close ground eruption at this range occasionally, where the tip of the second hit connects and the amplified version does not whiff.

When zoning is the most effective strategy in a match, finish combos with the far ground eruption and continue zoning. When zoning is limited or when your opponent has offensive options that are worth stealing, finish combos with soul steal, which is +41 on hit, according to the in-game frame data. You have great hit advantage and positioning to capitalize on the damage boost.

By the way, I did some testing with REO and re-morphing appears to be completely safe. Shang Tsung cannot be punished despite what the animation implies. You can block instantly but may be vulnerable to throws, which is difficult to test. Either way, they can still be escaped.
 
Ah so it works more like being hit in negative frames. Thanks for testing that.

His corpse drop btw is pretty gross for zoning.