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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
All i will say is Batgirl doesn't hold a fucking candle to the fucking bullshit that was Kabal/Cyrax/Kenshi
Actually, Batgirl in Injustice is just as broken as those three characters are in Mortal Kombat 9.

You could make the argument that if she were in Mortal Kombat 9, she would do fine against the top tier characters, which says a lot.
 
Level up scrubs.
Just because some players are misinformed on if the character is "broken" does not make them scrubs. I understand that its your thing and you even call accomplished tournament players scrubs(so I'm sure you really don't mean anything by it), but some of these guys actually do not understand that very powerful does not always = broken. Players like yourself who took he time to be good in IGAU should help the misinformed gain a better understanding rather than insult them. Some players get frustrated by some of the things in Injustice which is why they throw their hands up and call things "broken". Top tourney players such as yourself have ground these matches and situations out so you have a much better understanding which is why a top player like yourself doesn't see something as "broken" where as a less experienced player will. Calling anyone, especially a newer or less experienced player, a scrub completely shuts down any communication. It no longer becomes a lesson in the game but a shouting match where both parties throw insults.

This community is in DESPERATE NEED of some healing, I hope this does not carry over into MKX. None of you guys in this thread are scrubs, jut try to keep a little more of an open mind when some of the more established players try to break things down for you.



I'm not going to agree that Batgirl is "broken", mainly because I don't know anything about Injustice. I do agree with M2Dave though that, as long as the character plays the "neutral game", that the person using said character is considered great. However - If a character avoids the "neutral game" and plays a style that avoids what we call "footsies", that character will absolutely be seen as a BS character and has a good chance of being called broken. As a consequence, the player that has the nerve to use such a character that can avoid playing footsies will receive very little props. Instead, how great they are will always be a debate due to the character they use.
 
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SonicFox5000

The Best.
Just because some players are misinformed on if the character is "broken" does not make them scrubs. I understand that its your thing and you even call accomplished tournament players scrubs(so im sure you really don't mean anything by it), but some of these guys actually do not understand that very powerful does not always = broken. Players like yourself who took he time to be good in IGAU should help the misinformed gain a better understanding rather than insult them.

This community is in DESPERATE NEED of some healing, I hope this does not carry over into MKX. None of you guys in this thread are scrubs, jut try to keep a little more of an open mind when some of the more established players try to break things down for you.



I'm not going to agree that Batgirl is "broken", mainly because I don't know anything about Injustice. I do agree with M2Dave though that, as long as the character plays the "neutral game", that the person using said character is considered great. However - If a character avoids the "neutral game" and plays a style that avoids what we call "footsies", that character will absolutely be seen as a BS character and has a good chance of being called broken. As a consequence, the player that has the nerve to use such a character that can avoid playing footsies will receive very little props. Instead, how great they are will always be a debate due to the character they use.
Perfectly said. What i dont get is what does batgirl have that negates neutral game? She plays it just like most of the cast. And no its not her vortex because I have to play neutral before I get the vortex.
 

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
I do not agree.

Aquaman didn't have a 50/50 and he was winning plenty of majors/locals.
Doomsday doesn't have one, and he's placed quite a bit.
Raven didn't have one, and she made top 8 at KiT.
Sinestro does, but that's not all that Sinestro uses in a match up.
Batman has a situational 50/50, but most Batman players don't use it, and he's placed/won plenty of majors.
Zod primarily zones, and he's placed. He has mix-ups, but I don't think he has a true, unseeable 50/50. (Dave/Pig can correct me on this.)

If the 50/50 was as strong as the narrative implies, why didn't Killer Frost do more? Her ENTIRE deal, just like Batgirl, is the 50/50 and she controls space very well.

The Flash does have plenty of 50/50s, but he has to play EVERYONE ELSE'S GAME first, before he can come in and start his. He's a very footsie intensive character. Superman is another one with a situational guessing game, but primarily wins with footsies/counterzoning/conditioning. He, like Batman, is a very solid character.

I don't buy the narrative.
With all due respect, Zod is the best zoning character in any game ever so that helps him place well
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
With all due respect, Zod is the best zoning character in any game ever so that helps him place well
I did say he zones and that he places, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to correct.

Best zoner ever? I dunno...Eddie in Guilty Gear X-2 was pretty fucking good.
 

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
I did say he zones and that he places, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to correct.

Best zoner ever? I dunno...Eddie in Guilty Gear X-2 was pretty fucking good.
I mean, what I'm trying to say is if you're the best zoner in the game then you should place lmao you made it seem like he just kinda has a zoning tool lol just seemed like you were hella downplaying
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
There are still little things that people aren't doing that would help more, but I've said it before and nothing changes so whatever.
 

Error404

Noob
This thread is ridiculous . If Batgirl is sooo broken why didn't everyone win tournaments with her ? No one except Fox had any impressive BG performance , while on the other hand multiple people counter-picked in top 8s with Aquaman or MMH . They are the ones responsible for the games downfall . I'm not argueing that BG is a powerful character , but Aquaman and MMH are better . Also i'm pretty sure that Fox will beat 90% of us with a blind-pick random select.
 

HoneyBee

Flash God Lord
The Flash does have plenty of 50/50s, but he has to play EVERYONE ELSE'S GAME first, before he can come in and start his. He's a very footsie intensive character.
Thank you. You must be a Flash player right? Because absolutely no one understands this unless you play the Flash.
 

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Yeah say that to everyone that has lost to Sonic Fox's Batgirl. lol
They're all scrubs.
How can you level up and learn how to fight unreactable 50/50s plus on block and 70% combo on hit? lol
Her overhead string is negative on block. Same with her low. Also cross up dp is minus.
Just because some players are misinformed on if the character is "broken" does not make them scrubs. I understand that its your thing and you even call accomplished tournament players scrubs(so I'm sure you really don't mean anything by it), but some of these guys actually do not understand that very powerful does not always = broken. Players like yourself who took he time to be good in IGAU should help the misinformed gain a better understanding rather than insult them. Some players get frustrated by some of the things in Injustice which is why they throw their hands up and call things "broken". Top tourney players such as yourself have ground these matches and situations out so you have a much better understanding which is why a top player like yourself doesn't see something as "broken" where as a less experienced player will. Calling anyone, especially a newer or less experienced player, a scrub completely shuts down any communication. It no longer becomes a lesson in the game but a shouting match where both parties throw insults.

This community is in DESPERATE NEED of some healing, I hope this does not carry over into MKX. None of you guys in this thread are scrubs, jut try to keep a little more of an open mind when some of the more established players try to break things down for you.



I'm not going to agree that Batgirl is "broken", mainly because I don't know anything about Injustice. I do agree with M2Dave though that, as long as the character plays the "neutral game", that the person using said character is considered great. However - If a character avoids the "neutral game" and plays a style that avoids what we call "footsies", that character will absolutely be seen as a BS character and has a good chance of being called broken. As a consequence, the player that has the nerve to use such a character that can avoid playing footsies will receive very little props. Instead, how great they are will always be a debate due to the character they use.
Level up scrub.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Actually, Batgirl in Injustice is just as broken as those three characters are in Mortal Kombat 9.

You could make the argument that if she were in Mortal Kombat 9, she would do fine against the top tier characters, which says a lot.
I wouldn't be so sure. Take Cyrax. Although Batgirl's vortex is meterless, if Cyrax hits you with a bar, you don't get a chance to guess your way out anyway -- it's guaranteed. Not only that, but even if you have breaker, you can't use it because of the breaker trap. Oh yeah, and he can drain your meter as well. That's a whole other level of BS.

Not to mention that she also couldn't jump at him because of the fact that his advancing AA grab would likely cause her Smoke Bomb mixup to whiff in a punishibly unsafe way. So in neutral, she'd still have to deal with the rest of his BS, like his d4, the command grab shenanigans, etc.

And we haven't even begun to talk about some of the other top tier features in MK9, like insane chip damage, advancing armor and flash parries, 2-hour long blockstrings, throwing super armor after safe character-sized projectiles.. She honestly might lose to the top cast just like anyone else.
 
this reo and kabal thing... it only started when cdjr stopped playing jax and dabble around with multiple characters. before that reo lost like everytime when he faced jr's jax, which was mostly in grand finals of something.
yes CDJR was hes nemesis till the day he stopped using jax as a main
 
Fox vs Honeybee GFs. Fox won but was outplayed. Just one example where Batgirl saved him.

Not hating on him, the guy certainly is talented. But there's no way Fox would've won as many times as he did without that ridiculous character.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
This thread is ridiculous . If Batgirl is sooo broken why didn't everyone win tournaments with her ? No one except Fox had any impressive BG performance , while on the other hand multiple people counter-picked in top 8s with Aquaman or MMH . They are the ones responsible for the games downfall . I'm not argueing that BG is a powerful character , but Aquaman and MMH are better . Also i'm pretty sure that Fox will beat 90% of us with a blind-pick random select.
That is correct.

My theory isn't now nor has it ever been that Batgirl is broken. Aquaman is cheaper that she is every day of the week. Doomsday, MMH, even Lobo on a really good day, there are characters who can give her a solid run for her money.
The point I contest is that her arrival was a huge omen to me, Lt. Box, the yellow guy, for what was to come in IGAU: a polarizing, oversimplified style of a metagame that would eventually keep the game's lifespan and population from growing past a certain initial glass ceiling; a character is better equipped to break and exploit than anyone else on the roster, in spite of not being severely overpowered, or at the very least not being unnecessarily cheap; and the eventual rise of a player who would take these two elements and use them to their advantage in order to conquer the landscape and raise an empire.
We put up with it and keep fighting because it's what we all do. But such a combination of elements was bound to constrain the life of IGAU.


(Also: 5 pages of raging debate over my vendetta against Babs? I love it :D. More, more, people.)
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Official ESL Gaming
To this day, I don't understand how people can think that Batgirl is the best in Injustice when literally only one player has placed with him (except for that one Civil War). I mean what Batgirl is even beating you guys? Which one do you see winning aside from Sonicfox?

I have never ever seen any sort of game where the top option is considered the absolute top with results from only one person. Even when Chris G picked her up, he still did better with GA than her. Same with any other player who saltily tried to pick her up.

Too many times I've heard "well she touches you once and you die" but unless it's in the corner, she has to guess right on her mixup like 4 times at least, and if she guesses wrong she's considerably minus. If you get hit and guess wrong 4 times in a row, then that's not an undeserved loss.

And people joke about her neutral, but have you ever tried playing neutral with 15 frame normals vs Aquaman, Superman, and MMH with insane range 8 and 9 frame normals? That's a huge difference.


Have you guys ever considered that maybe we didn't know how to fight Batgirl well enough + Sonicfox played well?
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
To bring this back to Box's very first assertion - I think you'd have to consult a lot of people who aren't here to have the discussion about what "killed" Injustice (it's important to define what that actually means, too). I stopped playing it in late 2013; I stopped having fun. I'm only back on this site because I'm gearing up for MKX, it's possible many Injustice players are simply out of the community altogether. Did Batgirl drive them off? I dunno. How would you tell? I never liked her, but I wouldn't have classified fighting her as any one factor above a host of others.
It may not even necessarily be Babs herself that was the death knell, but she was where it started to go downhill for me. For exactly the same reason you stated; it wasn't fun anymore. I got to the point of "do I want to keep doing this just to stay competitive, even though my heart and soul are nowhere near as in it as they were in MK?" I couldn't do it. There was just no inspiration, and that started with her, but it was followed up repeatedly...the Scorpion nerfs (idc what anyone says, they really overdid it), MMH shenanigans, Aquaman and the rise of D1 ~ Stabby Stab Stab, trying to catch up online and finding nothing but Lv. 3 Venom Charging Banes and Flippy Flipping Deathstrokes, it goes on and on...outside of tournaments and Top 8's themselves, there was no great inspiration for anyone who wasn't already in the thick of it to compete like there was through all the different phases of MK9's lifespan. There was no great uplift in competitive population, and it seems like all the MK'ers who were just waiting on their ship to come in cashed out in the months right before MKX was confirmed.

Batgirl was a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
To this day, I don't understand how people can think that Batgirl is the best in Injustice when literally only one player has placed with him (except for that one Civil War). I mean what Batgirl is even beating you guys? Which one do you see winning aside from Sonicfox?

I have never ever seen any sort of game where the top option is considered the absolute top with results from only one person. Even when Chris G picked her up, he still did better with GA than her. Same with any other player who saltily tried to pick her up.

Too many times I've heard "well she touches you once and you die" but unless it's in the corner, she has to guess right on her mixup like 4 times at least, and if she guesses wrong she's considerably minus. If you get hit and guess wrong 4 times in a row, then that's not an undeserved loss.

And people joke about her neutral, but have you ever tried playing neutral with 15 frame normals vs Aquaman, Superman, and MMH with insane range 8 and 9 frame normals? That's a huge difference.


Have you guys ever considered that maybe we didn't know how to fight Batgirl well enough + Sonicfox played well?
Entirely true. But that's just the problem. What hope could there have been to grow and expand a scene beyond what was already in place - not just local by local, I mean on a bigger, more expansive scale - when not only are you trying to sell the newheads on a competitive life dealing with the kind of nonsense IGAU has no shortage of, but your proverbial champion/top guy is putting in work that visually alone is going to be enough to scare the pants off of the pants off of anyone who may seek to become superior?

That's why I'd love to see Fox win a show with Harley one day. He'd find a way to do it just to prove it can be done, but man...Batgirl just isn't any fun to watch for me.
 
Yes Batgirl is really dumb, but I want to say this. I don't think anyone is putting enough time into the Batgirl matchup to stand a chance against Sonicfox.

For example, I've never took Batgirl into training mode once, not once ever. So I don't know any of her strings, I don't know what is frame advantage and what is punishable, I don't know when I should be poking out of pressure or respecting etc. Batgirl is super foreign to me, especially because there are barely any Batgirl players to train with. And whomever is the 2nd best Batgirl or 3rd best Batgirl isn't even 50% as good as Sonic.

If I was smart tho, I would think to myself "hey, if I keep winning in tournament I'm eventually going to have to fight against Sonicfox, maybe I should learn how to fight Batgirl." Anyone can take Batgirl into training mode for a few hours and record the dummy doing all her strings, then test all your character's possible options after everything Batgirl can do. Just spend a day in training mode figuring out what Batgirl has that's safe, what does she have that's punishable, what gimmicks is Sonicfox getting away with because we dont know the matchup. You have 10x better chance fighting Batgirl if you know her inside and out, that's why I feel so confident fighting against Batman because I know everything there is to know about the character.

I feel like everyone is losing to Sonicfox because he is so godlike, but at the same time everyone is too lazy to try to learn the matchup and actually figure out how to fight Batgirl. She's not broken