A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

[Amplified$hotz]

That teleport is one of the least concerns at high level gameplay. The reason why her corner game is so damn ridiculous is because not only is the damage so high but she also the fact that she can do all this damage on a right guess. Superman and Flash on the other hand have to open you up to do their damage in the corner and its not safe, Batgirl has safe 50/50s which is why she's above those two in that regard. She can open up the opponent without a lot of consequence while Superman and (to some extent) Flash have reactable mixups that can be blocked on reaction most of the time (depends on the player).

However, if you're talking about teleport limiting your mobility then yeah there is a problem there. But as far as I've seen Foxx doesn't throw that out often when he uses Babs unless he's trying to close something out.

Also it is somewhat easy to react to when it is thrown out, but that is just me. The only problem's to poses to me are interactable control and the inability to jump.

Uhh Flash's b22 into sonic pound in the corner is a guess. And mb sonic pound is like +15. Nothing flash has is reactable. I agree that superman is a bit harder to open people up with.

 

[Crusty]

Uhh Flash's b22 into sonic pound in the corner is a guess. And mb sonic pound is like +15. Nothing flash has is reactable. I agree that superman is a bit harder to open people up with.

That comment was based on subjective experience. I fight a flash every single day. That might not have been the best example and notice I did say 'to some extent' meaning Flash can open you up effortlessly but his are more reactable than batgirls as he high/low game so too fast too block on reaction, its all on prediction at that point

 

[roosTakk]

In 4 weeks you guys will be bitching about whoever sonicfox mains in MKX

 

[Phosferrax]

Can we talk about how difficult her neutral game is tho?

 

[Rude]

Dave talks a lot about Batgirl players having no fundamentals...

How Batgirl players are using the character to win majors...

AND YET....

What Batgirl players are winning majors?

Name me five that are not named Sonic Fox.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

The game was always about the easy 50/50s... since day 1. lol

That's why I hated it.

I still say that the perception that easy 50/50's have dominated injustice has been largely wrong, at least up until Fox's Batgirl. Theo dominated for a year with Aquaman and that character is nothing but broken footsie tools. Doomsday is a consistent tournament placer and his 50/50 is basically d1 earthshake and d1d3. Big whoop.
Some character might have 50/50's but usually those aren't exactly the reason why they're so strong. Manhunter is top 3 because of a trait that makes his footsies broken and some of the best zoning and counterzoning in the game. Sinestro has a vortex, but from most matches I've seen it tends to be a tertiary part of his game rather than the central focus. Some characters have situational 50/50's like Batman's grapple hook resets or Superman's corner dive bomb setups(the ones you can't tech roll)...but I would hardly say that those 50/50's are what make them both such strong characters.
In fact some of the characters who have the most screwed up 50/50 vortex's in this game are arguably mid to low tier like Frost and Zatanna.

 

[Crusty]

Can we talk about how difficult her neutral game is tho?

Her neutral game can be one of the most frustrating things to deal with. The cartwheel is just a guessing game, at that point. Unless you have a character who can back away and punish the move (a character like GA) then it shouldn't be an issue. But not every character has those options.

Then it comes to her bola, that thing has an absurd amount of blockstun so it is kinda useless to counterzone her unless you're Zod, or Sinestro.

Most of the cast is just jailed into eating those things at the start which is why it is necassary to just backdash at the start to avoid some of her start of match options.

 

[Rude]

I still say that the perception that easy 50/50's have dominated injustice has been largely wrong, at least up until Fox's Batgirl. Theo dominated for a year with Aquaman and that character is nothing but broken footsie tools. Doomsday is a consistent tournament placer and his 50/50 is basically d1 earthshake and d1d3. Big whoop.
Some character might have 50/50's but usually those aren't exactly the reason why they're characters are so strong. Manhunter is top 3 because of a trait that makes his footsies broken and some of the best zoning and counterzoning in the game. Sinestro has a vortex, but from most matches I've seen it tends to be a tertiary part of his game rather than the central focus. Some characters have situational 50/50's like Batman's grapple hook resets or Superman's corner dive bomb setups(the ones you can't tech roll)...but I would hardly say that those 50/50's are what make them both such strong characters.
In fact some of the characters who have the most screwed up 50/50 vortex's in this game are arguably mid to low tier like Frost and Zatanna.

I think this is absolutely correct. Although, you're going to have people say that Martian doesn't play footsies because of OH Teleport. What they fail to realize is that after you BLOCK the teleport, you and the MMH player have a guessing game of your options vs. his options.

Kind of like the Doomsday post EN Shoulder Charge guessing game, or the post-slide guessing game. In each situation, you need to make a read of your best options vs. theirs, and that situation changes from character-to-character.

 

[FinalBoss_FGC]

When's the last time we had 2 Batgirls in top 8?

Shout out to Batgirl for being, apparently, impossible to deal with and shout out to @SonicFox5000 for being the only Batgirl who wins.

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

True, but normalizing characters like Black Adam, Deathstroke, and Superman made Batgirl better.

Exactly. Their downgrading gave way to her ascent even faster.

Dave talks a lot about Batgirl players having no fundamentals...

How Batgirl players are using the character to win majors...

AND YET....

What Batgirl players are winning majors?

Name me five that are not named Sonic Fox.

Which is why, ultimately, his title run is more about him than the character. NO ONE can do what that kid does with such consistency.
My whole point is that...when you take the fact that the guessing game being the center of the metagame puzzle was ultimately IGAU's biggest turnoff and detracting factor, couple it with the presence of this absurd cybernetic foxtailed player who already lives in a world of 50/50's finding a way to exploit it better than anyone there was/is, and factor in Killer Instinct taking off like a rocket, and...well...coconuts.

And none of it would be possible, or at least as empirical and destructive, were it not for Babs.

 

[Rude]

How many people have a high-level Batgirl to train against on the regular? Yes, when she touches you, she gets her 50/50 going. However...

She has to jump in, teleport, Batwheel, dash, etc, to get in. Each of those options have a punish. Is everyone punishing each of those options every time?

How many players have the regular Batgirl experience before attending these majors?

In MK9's heyday, you had REO, Detroit Ballin, Kevodaman, Cat, CD. Jr., Perfect Legend(just off the top of my head) all with either Kabal as their main or pocket Kabals.

And yet, we don't see nearly as many pocket Martian Manhunters or Batgirls.

 

[Phosferrax]

She has to jump in, teleport, Batwheel, dash, etc, to get in. Each of those options have a punish. Is everyone punishing each of those options every time?

That's basically the game of Injustice that you just described though. Batgirl actually has more offensive options than most characters to get in with, a lot of characters can't even punish her jump or cartwheel. The idea that she has 'the second hardest neutral game' is and always has been a bill.

 

[Crusty]

How many people have a high-level Batgirl to train against on the regular? Yes, when she touches you, she gets her 50/50 going. However...

She has to jump in, teleport, Batwheel, dash, etc, to get in. Each of those options have a punish. Is everyone punishing each of those options every time?

How many players have the regular Batgirl experience before attending these majors?

In MK9's heyday, you had REO, Detroit Ballin, Kevodaman, Cat, CD. Jr., Perfect Legend(just off the top of my head) all with either Kabal as their main or pocket Kabals.

And yet, we don't see nearly as many pocket Martian Manhunters or Batgirls.

Precisely, depending on the character. If you never fought them before odds are dealing with them are extraordinarily difficult though it depends on which character

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

I think this is absolutely correct. Although, you're going to have people say that Martian doesn't play footsies because of OH Teleport. What they fail to realize is that after you BLOCK the teleport, you and the MMH player have a guessing game of your options vs. his options.

Kind of like the Doomsday post EN Shoulder Charge guessing game, or the post-slide guessing game. In each situation, you need to make a read of your best options vs. theirs, and that situation changes from character-to-character.

And I think you guys are right. But that's because I'm me. Meaning I was in there, and I have that perspective.
But it's not my perspective that's the problem, it's the perspective of all the people, former players, would-have-been players and the like, that couldn't bring themselves to love or endure a world governed by DefCon Fox level crazy shit. Most of them don't know he's pretty much the only one, they just see the bloodshed and that's the ballgame.

Personally, I'd fight a knowledgable Batgirl all day before I willingly subject myself to online Aquamen and Deathstrokes. The girl may be the devil, but it's not like she isn't a worthy challenge.

 

[Rude]

Exactly. Their downgrading gave way to her ascent even faster.



Which is why, ultimately, his title run is more about him than the character. NO ONE can do what that kid does with such consistency.
My whole point is that...when you take the fact that the guessing game being the center of the metagame puzzle was ultimately IGAU's biggest turnoff and detracting factor, couple it with the presence of this absurd cybernetic foxtailed player who already lives in a world of 50/50's finding a way to exploit it better than anyone there was/is, and factor in Killer Instinct taking off like a rocket, and...well...coconuts.

And none of it would be possible, or at least as empirical and destructive, were it not for Babs.

I do not agree.

Aquaman didn't have a 50/50 and he was winning plenty of majors/locals.
Doomsday doesn't have one, and he's placed quite a bit.
Raven didn't have one, and she made top 8 at KiT.
Sinestro does, but that's not all that Sinestro uses in a match up.
Batman has a situational 50/50, but most Batman players don't use it, and he's placed/won plenty of majors.
Zod primarily zones, and he's placed. He has mix-ups, but I don't think he has a true, unseeable 50/50. (Dave/Pig can correct me on this.)

If the 50/50 was as strong as the narrative implies, why didn't Killer Frost do more? Her ENTIRE deal, just like Batgirl, is the 50/50 and she controls space very well.

The Flash does have plenty of 50/50s, but he has to play EVERYONE ELSE'S GAME first, before he can come in and start his. He's a very footsie intensive character. Superman is another one with a situational guessing game, but primarily wins with footsies/counterzoning/conditioning. He, like Batman, is a very solid character.

I don't buy the narrative.

 

[Phosferrax]

@Rude Zod has many unseeable 50/50s, the most basic one being F2 or D4 with trait.

Also Flash has some of the best tools to bypass zoning in Injustice, so I don't think 'he has to play everyone elses game' is true. And most characters have to play his game at jump distance.

 

[Rude]

That's basically the game of Injustice that you just described though. Batgirl actually has more offensive options than most characters to get in with, a lot of characters can't even punish her jump or cartwheel. The idea that she has 'the second hardest neutral game' is and always has been a bill.

After the universal d2 buff, what characters can't use their d2 to get her out of the air?

Can't you also backdash a couple of her cartwheel options on block? I can't remember which ones, but I believe you can.

 

[Rude]

@Rude Zod has many unseeable 50/50s, the most basic one being F2 or D4 with trait.

Fair enough.

 

[Rude]

@Rude Zod has many unseeable 50/50s, the most basic one being F2 or D4 with trait.

Also Flash has some of the best tools to bypass zoning in Injustice, so I don't think 'he has to play everyone elses game' is true. And most characters have to play his game at jump distance.

He has a full-combo punishable charge move, and a move that keeps him standing in place while a projectile goes through him. Most Flashes, smart Flashes, have to play patiently and work their way in because his charge is punishable simply by ducking. So as you're walking back, he's walking forward/dashing knowing that you're looking for him to do his charge.

 

[Phosferrax]

After the universal d2 buff, what characters can't use their d2 to get her out of the air?

Can't you also backdash a couple of her cartwheel options on block? I can't remember which ones, but I believe you can.

I don't know specifically, but the speed and low arch of her jump combined with the massive hitbox of j2 and j3 make it very difficult to consistently anti air in a real game. Whilst it's not free, there is a reason that SonicFox jumps in so often. If she has Grundy's ariel attacks then maybe, but hers are pretty top tier.

 

[Rude]

I don't know specifically, but the speed and low arch of her jump combined with the massive hitbox of j2 and j3 make it very difficult to consistently anti air in a real game. Whilst it's not free, there is a reason that SonicFox jumps in so often. If she has Grundy's ariel attacks then maybe, but hers are pretty top tier.

No one is saying they're not good. I'm simply saying that Batgirls can't just j2/j2/j2/j2 and win MAJORS. I'm saying that there are answers to her jumping.That's a narrative Batman mains were accused of in the early days of Injustice's life.

 

[Phosferrax]

He has a full-combo punishable charge move, and a move that keeps him standing in place while a projectile goes through him. Most Flashes, smart Flashes, have to play patiently and work their way in because his charge is punishable simply by ducking. So as you're walking back, he's walking forward/dashing knowing that you're looking for him to do his charge.

On top of those 2 unique moves, he has running man which lets him go under a number of projectiles, he has the fastest dash in the game, one of the fastest walk speeds in the game, trait, and sonic pound which is a very useful anti-zoning tool. Also it's not like he gets no reward for lightning charge, he gets a decent combo off it into his stupid oki game. Outside of teleport characters, he is the character that gives the least fucks about zoning.

 

[Linkuei82]

First thing first, Sonic is just that good. He is an awesome player and he is the best Batgirl player ever. No one should ever forget that.

Second, Batgirl is retarded.

Third, I thought Inj met it's doom before Sonic was running through majors.

 

[Rude]

On top of those 2 unique moves, he has running man which lets him go under a number of projectiles, he has the fastest dash in the game, one of the fastest walk speeds in the game, trait, and sonic pound which is a very useful anti-zoning tool. Also it's not like he gets no reward for lightning charge, he gets a decent combo off it into his stupid oki game. Outside of teleport characters, he is the character that gives the least fucks about zoning.

If you have a mid-hitting projectile, Running Man stance won't help him. And it's just like you said. He has to use the threat of his tools to walk and dash his way in. The only way his low even hits you is if he's RIGHT in your grill. I've rarely seen Flashes use Sonic Pound to get around zoning. It's more often used off of block strings and the like.

He does get a good combo into set-ups, oki, etc, off of lightning charge. If he's wrong, and it's crouch blocked, he's eating a full combo and depending on the character, possibly sent back to full screen.

He doesn't get in for free. He has to play the game.

 

[Phosferrax]

No one is saying they're not good. I'm simply saying that Batgirls can't just j2/j2/j2/j2 and win MAJORS. I'm saying that there are answers to her jumping.That's a narrative Batman mains were accused of in the early days of Injustice's life.

Yes but nearly all of her universal options she has are simply better tools than most of the cast's equivalent It's easy to break it down on paper and say these are her ways off getting in, but when you have to deal with the speed of them in game, the amount of them and the massively skewed risk/reward nature of her unique attacks it is a different thing entirely.