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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
You undertstand that, while delayed wakeup limited the effectiveness of some setups, there are still plenty of usable ambigious setups in the game, right? There are plenty of subtleties, but there are also some setups that are flat-out visually ambiguous as to which side they'll land on, and have nothing to do with option selects.
There are ambiguous set ups, and they are character and screen specific, but in no way, shape, or form are they comparable to Batgirl's superficial 50/50 mix ups. Batgirl's mix ups do not exist in Street Fighter. If they had existed, they would have been patched out of the game in the beta.

Street Fighter does not revolve around the vortex any more. If you watch players like Daigo, Momochi, and Tokido player, the game is about footsies and grounded damage.
 
The neutral game is one of the most important aspects of fighting games. What I can't stand is when some players try to play a forced neutral game, instead of downloading or reading the opponent. You should not play honest when you have found your opponents weakness, you should capatalise on it. Imo it's a mistake to play footsies when you have clearly found out your opponents weakness. The best players adapt mid match or after a round. Some players never learn and only adapt after several games and in a tournament setting that is just not good enough. It looks to me sonic fox knows exactly how to break down his opponents which is maybe why it looks like he plays like a maniac but imo the one skill that seperates players like PL and sonic fox is that they are not afraid to make a read and completely trust their own instinct.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Not gonna lie, kinda hyped that a Dave Debate broke out in my thread.

This is fun. I wish I had pie.
This feels like the kind of debate that warrants pie.

"The Great Batgirl Pie Debate Of 2015."
That's what they'll call it.
Because, much like pie, everyones' opinions and tastes and amounts of fuck to give on this subject are expansively different, but all wrapped inside the same circular facts.


At the end of the day, IGAU isn't all that captivating from an outsider's perspective anymore.
Batgirl is messed up as hell.
SonicFox is a robot.
And pie is always going to pie.

Arguable, but undebatable, facts.

#LetPieBePie
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Premium Supporter
This opinion doesn't make any sense. For example, a lot of characters in SF4 have ambiguous setups on knockdown. Every player in the game, no matter how good, has to deal with them.

How do they do that? By exploiting every other opportunity in the matchup, to make sure they they are the one knocking their opponent down more often than not, rather than the one being knocked down.

In order to do that, you need to know matchups.. If all the SF players just said "Well, if I get knocked down I have to guess, woe is me, it's not even worth learning anything or playing the game" then no one would be any good.

For someone who is constantly calling people scrubs, that seems like a pretty silly mentality to have.

@Slips I'm sure you can comment on this as well.

Dave is right about Batgirl compared to your Street Fighter reference. The closest thing to Batgirl in SFIV was Cammy but like Dave said, it takes more than doing a combo and then derping a 50/50 after it like Batgirl does. And in Ultra that is obviously all gone because everyone hates it. Otherwise, there's almost never a situation in SFIV where you are forced to guess with no other option. You can almost always either a) Dragon Punch, b) backdash, c) focus backdash/forward dash, d) jump, e) Ultra. That is actually too many defensive options if you ask me and I think most SFIV players agree the defensive options are too much. But that's a different argument altogether.

Batgirl is definitely stupid. She's not the reason the game is dead though that's just silly and it's definitely not the reason why Sonic Fox is dominating. I think @FOREVER KING is right nobody is playing Batgirl at the level of SonicFox is and he's just beasting people when they finally play Batgirl that plays to her potential. You see Batwheels go unpunished all the time, shoryuken's not getting punished and I know some characters can punish her overhead option just for starters. Hell Sinestro has a meterless vortex but you don't see him running the show like Fox is with Batgirl.

What makes her stupid though is that she gets her vortex off of EVERYTHING. Whether it was an AA, air to air, after a jump in, d1~special, wake-up shoryuken, yolo-tele, ect. It's one thing if she has to hit with something specific, like with Scorp in MK9 I couldn't vortex anyone without taking a huge risk first, (And the fact that if you blocked Scorp's vortex he was eating a fat combo) but Batgirl gets it off of almost everything outside of batwheel. Which acts perfect as a move that forces you to stop moving around so she can't start her bs to get in.

Ultimately MKX killed Injustice. If MKX wasn't until next year you can bet a lot of the top players would still be playing and they'd be trying to knock Fox off his throne. But after Evo most Injustice players quit and are waiting on MKX which only allows Fox to dominate even more.

Most top players agree Batgirl isn't even top 3 so lets stop acting like Fox is killing the game and just enjoy the fact you are seeing Batgirl being played at her highest potential by a super good player. Dumb character or not.
 
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Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
Im not scared of batgirl. Bring that crippled bitch on. On a serious note i agree with you on the 50/50 bullshit of this game. I think at the end of the day Injustice is what you get when NRS makes a game without a block button.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Dave is right about Batgirl compared to your Street Fighter reference. The closest thing to Batgirl in SFIV was Cammy but like Dave said, it takes more than doing a combo and then derping a 50/50 after it like Batgirl does. And in Ultra that is obviously all gone because everyone hates it. Otherwise, there's almost never a situation in SFIV where you are forced to guess with no other option. You can almost always either a) Dragon Punch, b) backdash, c) focus backdash/forward dash, d) jump, e) Ultra. That is actually too many defensive options if you ask me and I think most SFIV players agree the defensive options are too much. But that's a different argument altogether.
So what I meant is -- although Batgirl is clearly overpowered, the mentality of saying "this character has a 50/50, so I may as well not learn the matchup" doesn't make any sense to me. Although the degree to which you are put to a disadvantage by various characters in various games varies, the principle of saying "this character puts me at a disadvantage on hit, and I have to guess, so I shouldn't bother to learn the matchup at all" is just silly.

It's not to excuse Batgirl's character design -- but as King said, people aren't doing all they they can to give themselves the best possible chances either. Rather than being on one extreme or the other, we should be falling somewhere in the middle.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Premium Supporter
So what I meant is -- although Batgirl is clearly overpowered, the mentality of saying "this character has a 50/50, so I may as well not learn the matchup" doesn't make any sense to me. Although the degree to which you are put to a disadvantage by various characters in various games varies, the principle of saying "this character puts me at a disadvantage on hit, and I have to guess, so I shouldn't bother to learn the matchup at all" is just silly.

It's not to excuse Batgirl's character design -- but as King said, people aren't doing all they they can to give themselves the best possible chances either. Rather than being on one extreme or the other, we should be falling somewhere in the middle.
Agreed. Lets also not forget the one top player that actually took the time to learn the matchup ended up beating SonicFox. 16 Bit lost to him and then had PPJ use him to get mu experience. Next thing you know 16 Bit wins the next time they fight.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Dave is right about Batgirl compared to your Street Fighter reference. The closest thing to Batgirl in SFIV was Cammy but like Dave said, it takes more than doing a combo and then derping a 50/50 after it like Batgirl does. And in Ultra that is obviously all gone because everyone hates it. Otherwise, there's almost never a situation in SFIV where you are forced to guess with no other option. You can almost always either a) Dragon Punch, b) backdash, c) focus backdash/forward dash, d) jump, e) Ultra. That is actually too many defensive options if you ask me and I think most SFIV players agree the defensive options are too much. But that's a different argument altogether.

Batgirl is definitely stupid. She's not the reason the game is dead though that's just silly and it's definitely not the reason why Sonic Fox is dominating. I think King is right nobody is playing Batgirl at the level of SonicFox and he's just beasting people when they finally play Batgirl that plays to her potential. You see Batwheels go unpunished all the time, shoryuken's not getting punished and I know some characters can punish her overhead option just for starters. Hell Sinestro has a meterless vortex but you don't see him running the show like Fox is with Batgirl.

What makes her stupid though is that she gets her vortex off of EVERYTHING. Whether it was an AA, air to air, after a jump in, d1~special, wake-up shoryuken, yolo-tele, ect. It's one thing if she has to hit with something specific, like with Scorp in MK9 I couldn't vortex anyone without taking a huge risk first, (And the fact that if you blocked Scorp's vortex he was eating a fat combo) but Batgirl gets it off of almost everything outside of batwheel. Which acts perfect as a move that forces you to stop moving around so she can't start her bs to get in.

Ultimately MKX killed Injustice. If MKX wasn't until next year you can bet a lot of the top players would still be playing and they'd be trying to knock Fox off his throne. But after Evo most Injustice players quit and are waiting on MKX which only allows Fox to dominate even more.

Most top players agree Batgirl isn't even top 3 so lets stop acting like Fox is killing the game and just enjoy the fact you are seeing Batgirl being played at her highest potential by a super good player. Dumb character or not.
Yes. All of my yes.

I love opening the debate floor.

For the record, I don't think Babs killed IGAU, because I don't see it as dead. Stuck, yes, but definitely not dead. It'll always make a solid sidepiece game and will still see its hype times as life goes on. But I believe that, with the only close polarizing subject being old Superman and Bladam, that her arrival was the first major sign of the lonely path the game would travel. Although I do agree that MKX's impending arrival played probably a bigger part even than KI giving everyone something brand new and, IMO, far more exciting and fleshed out to do, whether they were waiting for MKX or not.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
Hell Sinestro has a meterless vortex but you don't see him running the show like Fox is with Batgirl.
Blind Ducky and White Boy were blocking Cowboy's vortex very well at KIT. Sinestro's vortex is not on Batgirl's level.

I do not see how Batgirl is not a top 3 character. Chris G was right when he said that Batgirl has the most simple mix ups in recent memory.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Blind Ducky and White Boy were blocking Cowboy's vortex very well at KIT. Sinestro's vortex is not on Batgirl's level.

I do not see how Batgirl is not a top 3 character. Chris G was right when he said that Batgirl has the most simple mix ups in recent memory.
Because Zod beats her out for #3.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Premium Supporter
Blind Ducky and White Boy were blocking Cowboy's vortex very well at KIT. Sinestro's vortex is not on Batgirl's level.

I do not see how Batgirl is not a top 3 character. Chris G was right when he said that Batgirl has the most simple mix ups in recent memory.
You might be right it was uncanny how often they were guessing right in Sinestro's vortex.

And it's possible she's 3rd. I mean we all think Batgirl is stupid but you have to admit most people aren't displaying good matchup knowledge against her. Not that I'm taking away anything from Sonix Fox he's a top player regardless. It's kind of unfair to him that people say he wins because his character is stupid but Theo and Jupiter are godlike while they're using characters that are even better than Batgirl.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
*Makes the point that people didn't have high-level Batgirl experience before facing Fox.*

*Watches as King makes same point.*

*King gets the props.*

I've been making the point that people don't fully understand the matchup since 2013 but I'm not surprised noone listened/listens to me lol.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Blind Ducky and White Boy were blocking Cowboy's vortex very well at KIT. Sinestro's vortex is not on Batgirl's level.

I do not see how Batgirl is not a top 3 character. Chris G was right when he said that Batgirl has the most simple mix ups in recent memory.
Yet another uninspiring, unavoidable truth.

This really is like the Kenshi debate all over again, when no one could decide whether or not Kenshi was really as fucked up as he was in spite of the fact that he barely had any serious players, and no one who made it as far as Pig.
Now it's almost impossible to gauge what's understated or overblown because there's only one major Batgirl, and he just happens to be maybe the most consistently devastating player since who the hell knows when.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
I've been making the point that people don't fully understand the matchup since 2013 but I'm not surprised noone listened/listens to me lol.
I said all of this was going to happen even back then, so I feel the hurt.
No one ever listens to Boxy 'til it's too late :(.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
It's kind of unfair to him that people say he wins because his character is stupid but Theo and Jupiter are godlike while they're using characters that are even better than Batgirl.
It is not unfair. Theo and Jupiter were not running their mouths about how they had a difficult neutral game.
 

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Premium Supporter
It is not unfair. Theo and Jupiter were not running their mouths about how they had a difficult neutral game.
...because Theo and Jupiter are using the two best neutral game characters in the game is probably why they don't run their mouths about it. Fox is obviously going to point out the biggest weakness of his character that he has to make up for as a player when your constantly saying he's fraudulent.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Dave would not beat sonic fox in any game with any character/matchup period. I am so sick of seeing Dave downplay Sonic Fox's success based on the character he plays. I am not even calling Dave out, he's a good player but Sonic Fox is one of the best fighting game players currently playing games competitively. Dave, go play his Mileena, is she broken like batgirl? You know what the result would be and so does everyone else...
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
...he's a good player but Sonic Fox is one of the best fighting game players currently playing games competitively.
Absolutely. He is on par with the likes of Justin Wong, PR Balrog, and Snake Eyes.

By the way, I did fine versus his Mileena, but we only played on PSN.