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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

So, she is well-balanced like Zod?
She's OP lol. Like Zod. But not broken. She's beatable. Everyone is just too lazy to sit down for a couple hours in training mode and completely figure out Batgirl. I'm pretty sure we let Sonicfox get away with unsafe shenanigans all the time, we're just too ignorant in the matchup and he takes advantage of that. I don't blame him lol
 

Amplified$hotz

Leggo Sinestro!
She's OP lol. Like Zod. But not broken. She's beatable. Everyone is just too lazy to sit down for a couple hours in training mode and completely figure out Batgirl. I'm pretty sure we let Sonicfox get away with unsafe shenanigans all the time, we're just too ignorant in the matchup and he takes advantage of that. I don't blame him lol
Do you think pig lost EVO because he didn't know the mu, because he got outplayed, or because she's dumb? Of course he'll never blame the loss on the character I just wonder what you think.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
She's OP lol. Like Zod. But not broken. She's beatable. Everyone is just too lazy to sit down for a couple hours in training mode and completely figure out Batgirl. I'm pretty sure we let Sonicfox get away with unsafe shenanigans all the time, we're just too ignorant in the matchup and he takes advantage of that. I don't blame him lol
Fool, there is not much to learn. Everything is safe and a 50/50 mix up. You cannot learn to guess better.

I do believe that Batgirl loses to Aquaman and Martian Manhunter at the highest level because these two characters have the neutral game to contain her approach.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
70% bnbs into safe 50/50s plus on block and full combo on hit is (soap bar in my mouth). But theres more to it than Batgirl that ruined the game.

No solid AAs.
Shitty wake up attacks.
Shitty mobility.
Garbage 0 range pokes.
Input drops, negative edge etc etc.
lol wat?
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Have you guys ever considered that maybe we didn't know how to fight Batgirl well enough + Sonicfox played well?
Chef you beautiful man.
Yes Batgirl is really dumb, but I want to say this. I don't think anyone is putting enough time into the Batgirl matchup to stand a chance against Sonicfox.

I feel like everyone is losing to Sonicfox because he is so godlike, but at the same time everyone is too lazy to try to learn the matchup and actually figure out how to fight Batgirl. She's not broken
King you beautiful man.
Fool, there is not much to learn. Everything is safe and a 50/50 mix up. You cannot learn to guess better.

I do believe that Batgirl loses to Aquaman and Martian Manhunter at the highest level because these two characters have the neutral game to contain her approach.
OUTSIDE of the vortex, obviously.

If she loses to either of those two, it's actually Aquaman.
Do you think pig lost EVO because he didn't know the mu, because he got outplayed, or because she's dumb? Of course he'll never blame the loss on the character I just wonder what you think.
Because he lost focus.
 

Ra Helios

Omnipotent God-like Selina Kyle Player
She's OP lol. Like Zod. But not broken. She's beatable. Everyone is just too lazy to sit down for a couple hours in training mode and completely figure out Batgirl. I'm pretty sure we let Sonicfox get away with unsafe shenanigans all the time, we're just too ignorant in the matchup and he takes advantage of that. I don't blame him lol
You can't figure out something that you can't see. That is what winning his matchups. No hate to the guy. A win is a win.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

PRESIDENT OF THE AXE
Premium Supporter
Yes Batgirl is really dumb, but I want to say this. I don't think anyone is putting enough time into the Batgirl matchup to stand a chance against Sonicfox.

For example, I've never took Batgirl into training mode once, not once ever. So I don't know any of her strings, I don't know what is frame advantage and what is punishable, I don't know when I should be poking out of pressure or respecting etc. Batgirl is super foreign to me, especially because there are barely any Batgirl players to train with. And whomever is the 2nd best Batgirl or 3rd best Batgirl isn't even 50% as good as Sonic.

If I was smart tho, I would think to myself "hey, if I keep winning in tournament I'm eventually going to have to fight against Sonicfox, maybe I should learn how to fight Batgirl." Anyone can take Batgirl into training mode for a few hours and record the dummy doing all her strings, then test all your character's possible options after everything Batgirl can do. Just spend a day in training mode figuring out what Batgirl has that's safe, what does she have that's punishable, what gimmicks is Sonicfox getting away with because we dont know the matchup. You have 10x better chance fighting Batgirl if you know her inside and out, that's why I feel so confident fighting against Batman because I know everything there is to know about the character.

I feel like everyone is losing to Sonicfox because he is so godlike, but at the same time everyone is too lazy to try to learn the matchup and actually figure out how to fight Batgirl. She's not broken
^^^^^ yes. Most definitely yes.
And I did that! I even picked her up. The last thing I did before I retired IGAU and went back to MK9 was learn how to use her and figure out what makes her great and weak, because as you semi-said, you can't take all your information just from Fox because no one else has come close to his level. It's like Pig and Kenshi all over again, except without REO or the Kabal army on a higher pedestal.

But let's look at it this way: what inspires people to compete in fighters to begin with? Or more importantly, what uninspires them?
To me, it broke down two ways: you either love your game and environment enough to suffer for your victory, or you love to win enough to suffer through the shortcomings and annoyances of the environment. MK9 taught me the former even though back then I was pretty awful, and IGAU taught me the latter/how to love winning and be driven by it, even though I had no great boner to speak of for anything in it other than Regime Doomsday and Deathstroke zoning. And I made this thread not just about Babs, but about how that feeling of "fuck this, I'm out" - which didn't sum itself up in a day, i only dropped IGAU in July - started the moment she showed up and I saw what the future of the game was going to evolve into, and I genuinely wonder how many other people felt the same way. Maybe they stuck around longer, maybe they still keep up now, but in the back of their minds they knew this was all only going to go so far, because for all its shortcomings, this game should not already be dead before its 2'nd anniversary.
 

RM Truth

Unintentional Tier Whore Follow me @TruthRM
I did say he zones and that he places, right? I'm not sure what you're trying to correct.

Best zoner ever? I dunno...Eddie in Guilty Gear X-2 was pretty fucking good.
He wasn't really a zoner. Actually he was more of a Batgirl on steroids.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
All I know is I hate watching a character take a whole life bar in one series of events and batgirl (specifically sonic) does that an awful lot. I don't have an opinion past that because I stopped playing seriously.
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Thank you. You must be a Flash player right? Because absolutely no one understands this unless you play the Flash.
While I am not a Flash player, I am someone who doesn't believe in false narratives, like the ones people spread about The Flash. Typically, they're the same ones they try to spread about Batman players, another character that doesn't just BS his way through matches.

But hey, obviously Bird Lao X and NY-Shadow know better than we do.
 

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
MR REASONABLE HERE.

WHAT YALL DONT UNDERSTAND IS....
Batgirl. Yes she has a vortex and Great set ups. But she has to get you in there.

Her neutral game is pretty hard. All her moves are 15 frames or unsafe. ( hence why NW, aquaman, and martian give her trouble) Her options in the neutral can be kind of* gimped by ducking REACTING and baiting. ( this is where the player error comes in, and SONIC IS HELLA SUPERIOR ) in the neutral her options are whiff punish YOUR MISTAKE with b1, use Batarangs to catch wreckless dashes cause by YOU, dash up DP, use her 8 frame d1, cartwheel which anti airs but no one ever uses the option select, and Teleport which is HELLA yolo and takes ~28 frames to like so its a read so you werew reckless. Her best option is dash to cover space and get a reaction. To win with batgirl you have to be superior in you neutral game and reads. Reasons why, 16 bit, pig, deg, jupiter, Carl and saltface give fox a challenge.

She easily top 5 but beatable. Get over it. And hopefully y'all use training mode in MKX. DONT TEST YOUR SWAGGY COMBOS. LEARN YOUR FRAMES, YOUR STRINGS, YOU OPTIONS IN YOUR MUs, and then find tech.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

PRESIDENT OF THE AXE
Premium Supporter
This is exactly what Barbara wants.

For all of us to fight amongst each other while her evils go unpunished.

It's Walter White VS Gus Fring all over again, but with brattiness and Teleports instead of meth and pizzas.

It's BRILLIANT.
 

SonicFox5000

The Best.
Op =\= Broken.
Edit
And at WB, Honeybee and I played the neutral game the way it should be. He got outplayed in the footsies. But him and I both know that if one of us gets touched, that could be the end of the game in 3 reads since both our characters do that.
 

BRUTALITY

Banned
She's OP lol. Like Zod. But not broken. She's beatable. Everyone is just too lazy to sit down for a couple hours in training mode and completely figure out Batgirl. I'm pretty sure we let Sonicfox get away with unsafe shenanigans all the time, we're just too ignorant in the matchup and he takes advantage of that. I don't blame him lol
how much lab time does it take to guess right on a 50/50
 
I wish that folks would stop misusing the word 'broken'. 'Broken' implies that the character's design inherently breaks the rules of the game in some way. Given that vortexes are very much within the rules of the game, Batgirl's therefore isn't broken. It may have better risk-reward than it should, but that would mean it's overpowered, not broken.

Literally, if you toned down her damage a little (or maybe slightly more than a little), Batgirl would be totally fine.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Fool, there is not much to learn. Everything is safe and a 50/50 mix up. You cannot learn to guess better.

I do believe that Batgirl loses to Aquaman and Martian Manhunter at the highest level because these two characters have the neutral game to contain her approach.
This opinion doesn't make any sense. For example, a lot of characters in SF4 have ambiguous setups on knockdown. Every player in the game, no matter how good, has to deal with them.

How do they do that? By exploiting every other opportunity in the matchup, to make sure they they are the one knocking their opponent down more often than not, rather than the one being knocked down.

In order to do that, you need to know matchups.. If all the SF players just said "Well, if I get knocked down I have to guess, woe is me, it's not even worth learning anything or playing the game" then no one would be any good.

For someone who is constantly calling people scrubs, that seems like a pretty silly mentality to have.

@Slips I'm sure you can comment on this as well.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
This opinion doesn't make any sense. For example, a lot of characters in SF4 have ambiguous setups on knockdown. Every player in the game, no matter how good, has to deal with them.

How do they do that? By exploiting every other opportunity in the matchup, to make sure they they are the one knocking their opponent down more often than not, rather than the one being knocked down.

In order to do that, you need to know matchups.. If all the SF players just said "Well, if I get knocked down I have to guess, woe is me, it's not even worth learning anything or playing the game" then no one would be any good.

For someone who is constantly calling people scrubs, that seems like a pretty silly mentality to have.

@Slips I'm sure you can comment on this as well.
I have already disproved this equivalency in another thread when another user, who was misinformed as you usually are because you love to talk yet play none of these fighting games, brought up the same comparison.

First of all, Ultra Street Fighter IV has implemented "delayed wake up" to its system. You can control the timing when you wake up from the ground limiting your opponent's offensive options and mix ups.

Second of all, Ultra Street Fighter IV requires a complete understanding of "safe jumping" and "option selects" to take full advantage of the mix ups. Sonic Fox, on the other hand, places his opponents in a special move that leaves them helpless for more than a second. He then runs up and performs a safe high/low 50/50 mix up or a safe left/right 50/50 mix up ignoring any kind of subtlety as seen in Street Fighter.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I have already disproved this equivalency in another thread when another user, who was misinformed as you usually are because you love to talk yet play none of these fighting games, brought up the same comparison.

First of all, Ultra Street Fighter IV has implemented "delayed wake up" to its system. You can control the timing when you wake up from the ground limiting your opponent's offensive options and mix ups.

Second of all, Ultra Street Fighter IV requires a complete understanding of "safe jumping" and "option selects" to take full advantage of the mix ups. Sonic Fox, on the other hand, places his opponents in a special move that leaves them helpless for more than a second. He then runs up and performs a safe high/low 50/50 mix up or a safe left/right 50/50 mix up ignoring any kind of subtlety as seen in Street Fighter.
You undertstand that, while delayed wakeup limited the effectiveness of some setups, there are still plenty of usable ambigious setups in the game, right? There are plenty of subtleties, but there are also some setups that are flat-out visually ambiguous as to which side they'll hit on, and have nothing to do with option selects.

To say that whether you're mixed up or not once you've been hit is completely under your control is still untrue. But a good player is still focused on limiting their exposure to them regardles.