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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
That teleport is one of the least concerns at high level gameplay. The reason why her corner game is so damn ridiculous is because not only is the damage so high but she also the fact that she can do all this damage on a right guess. Superman and Flash on the other hand have to open you up to do their damage in the corner and its not safe, Batgirl has safe 50/50s which is why she's above those two in that regard. She can open up the opponent without a lot of consequence while Superman and (to some extent) Flash have reactable mixups that can be blocked on reaction most of the time (depends on the player).

However, if you're talking about teleport limiting your mobility then yeah there is a problem there. But as far as I've seen Foxx doesn't throw that out often when he uses Babs unless he's trying to close something out.

Also it is somewhat easy to react to when it is thrown out, but that is just me. The only problem's to poses to me are interactable control and the inability to jump.
These are the exact reasons why NW suffers. Mobility and intractable damage. But you can't really elaborate on a characters strengths/weaknesses here without being accused of up/downplaying the character.
 

VenomX-90

"On your Knees!"
Im asking since her name is in the title but didnt this Boxy chick get death threats from 4chan or something b/c she was being annoying or something?
 

Crusty

Retired ATM
These are the exact reasons why NW suffers. Mobility and intractable damage. But you can't really elaborate on a characters strengths/weaknesses here without being accused of up/downplaying the character.
If accusations come, let them be. I don't upplay or downplay any character as I believe every character in the game is good in they're own right. That being said, character advantages and disadvantages do happen which is why a tier list exists. Also, I was simply stating some facts and experiences with Flash and Superman above. Batgirl's 50/50's are fast to block on reaction, you have to predict them, Superman leaves himself exposed on the wrong guess and Flash (and this is just my educated guess as well as my experience with him) has reactableed gimmicks which when learned with make him easier to deal with. I fight a Flash regularly
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
Premium Supporter
Because it only counts as a hypothesis if I'm building an experiment around it.
And before one builds a hypothesis, they have to have a theory behind it.

Science :D <3.
Dead wrong. A theory isn't a theory until it is fully established. Gravity is a theory. The earth revolving around the sun is a theory. Evolution is a theory. These are established as much as they possibly can be, which makes them theories. If even ONE bit of evidence arises to refute any of these, then they are no longer theories. A theory is the most rock solid idea in science. They hold more weight than even facts do. Theories explain the facts.

A hypothesis is when you're making a guess or speculating. A hypothesis doesn't have to be experimented on to be a hypothesis. There just needs to be a hypothesis before experiments are run to give them direction. Experiments serve to try and demonstrate a hypothesis.

http://www.livescience.com/32390-what-is-a-theory.html
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Dead wrong. A theory isn't a theory until it is fully established. Gravity is a theory. The earth revolving around the sun is a theory. Evolution is a theory. These are established as much as they possibly can be, which makes them theories. If even ONE bit of evidence arises to refute any of these, then they are no longer theories. A theory is the most rock solid idea in science. They hold more weight than even facts do. Theories explain the facts.

A hypothesis is when you're making a guess or speculating. A hypothesis doesn't have to be experimented on to be a hypothesis. There just needs to be a hypothesis before experiments are run to give them direction. Experiments serve to try and demonstrate a hypothesis.

http://www.livescience.com/32390-what-is-a-theory.html
...goddammit, science. I would get it backwards -.- ...
 

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
Yes basically a theory is the highest possible level you get in sciencias. Usually the laymen vernacular of scientific terms are differ which often confuses people.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Yes basically a theory is the highest possible level you get in sciencias. Usually the laymen vernacular of scientific terms are differ which often confuses people.
The "theory" has now been relegated to "grand debate" status. I definitely thought it was the other way around. Boxy is a writer, not a scientist.
Box VS Science is at LEAST a 7-3 MU, unless you give me a green or a rum buff.
 

Eldriken

You are marked for termination.
Forum General
Dead wrong. A theory isn't a theory until it is fully established. Gravity is a theory. The earth revolving around the sun is a theory. Evolution is a theory. These are established as much as they possibly can be, which makes them theories. If even ONE bit of evidence arises to refute any of these, then they are no longer theories. A theory is the most rock solid idea in science. They hold more weight than even facts do. Theories explain the facts.

A hypothesis is when you're making a guess or speculating. A hypothesis doesn't have to be experimented on to be a hypothesis. There just needs to be a hypothesis before experiments are run to give them direction. Experiments serve to try and demonstrate a hypothesis.

http://www.livescience.com/32390-what-is-a-theory.html
You are now known as...

KNOWLEDGESPHERE.
 

BigMilk

Former Divine Power Abuser
If accusations come, let them be. I don't upplay or downplay any character as I believe every character in the game is good in they're own right. That being said, character advantages and disadvantages do happen which is why a tier list exists. Also, I was simply stating some facts and experiences with Flash and Superman above. Batgirl's 50/50's are fast to block on reaction, you have to predict them, Superman leaves himself exposed on the wrong guess and Flash (and this is just my educated guess as well as my experience with him) has reactableed gimmicks which when learned with make him easier to deal with. I fight a Flash regularly
I agree with everything you said. My statement was really just to compliment yours
 

Shark Tank

I don't actually play these games
Actually, it's a law. :>

(Law of gravity, etc.)
They're not necessarily in a heriachical releashionship, since all knowoledge is tentative. Theory's are generally more grandoise in what they explain, while laws are usually simpler obvious emprical observations that occur. I mean semantics, some physicists have told it is some say it isn't.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
2. We turned our community into an a place that felt uninviting - Many of us, including myself are guilty of this. Constant bickering, name calling, sitting online for 3 hours waiting for someone on your friends list to sign on so you can finally get in a quality set, saying things like "Why is this guy allowed to talk about the game" which makes players feel like they are not allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, etc.. all became huge turn offs. One of my biggest regrets is my inability to let go of my own childish ego for the better of the community. MANY of us let our ego's and petty differences rip things apart. Not only did players already here get turned off by this, but anyone looking to get into the game but unsure also became turned off.
I'm not really sure why this narrative still comes into play; I know Chance has that baseless theory that drama drove down tournament numbers, but there still is really no evidence to show that the community became any less inviting or attended then the final days of MK9.

I agree that the bitterness went up a lot, but that's also pretty natural. In competition, shockingly, most people don't think anyone is better than they are and are pretty confident in sharing that opinion with anybody who asks (or even doesn't ask). I really don't think we need to fault the players in the community with being competitive and believing that they are good, it's only natural. Hell, you've made a career out of it.

If we're being honest, the big issue is that there are posts like these, made by people of influence like yourself, that uses your feelings to create a sort of blanket statement that is applied to the entire community. For example, M2Dave truly believes in his heart of hearts (despite a mountain of evidence to prove otherwise) that Deathstroke was nerfed because of the community, so that is spammed across every form of media possible until it becomes an undisputable fact, when it's anything but. People keep saying that the community tore itself apart so people don't go to tournies, but the only people saying that are guys who A) Aren't even going to any of these tournaments and don't see the good times everyone has or B) Guys that have an agenda that they wanna push. Until Final Round 14, who would be caught saying that there were too many "bullies" in the community? NEC 13 was a huge success and then all of a sudden FR hits and now there are too many bullies in the scene. It's so disingenuous.

What needs to happen is just for people to go to tournaments and think for themselves. There are too many guys on the forums who try to make everything a community issue and push blame and negativity towards other groups when none of that is actually true and is actually the sort of goofy drama that underlies competition in general. Skype Illuminati en masse trolling, the King threads pumping himself up, those are just natural competitive garbage with little malice. It's the leaving threads and the "THIS community" threads that are insanely bad and have agendas and should be maligned for what they are: Self serving.

Tl;Dr: Go have fun at tournaments and embrace the competitive side, stop giving attention to drama fiends who just start it because they're mad at whatever dumb and trivial thing that upset them that day.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
I'm not really sure why this narrative still comes into play; I know Chance has that baseless theory that drama drove down tournament numbers, but there still is really no evidence to show that the community became any less inviting or attended then the final days of MK9.

I agree that the bitterness went up a lot, but that's also pretty natural. In competition, shockingly, most people don't think anyone is better than they are and are pretty confident in sharing that opinion with anybody who asks (or even doesn't ask). I really don't think we need to fault the players in the community with being competitive and believing that they are good, it's only natural. Hell, you've made a career out of it.

If we're being honest, the big issue is that there are posts like these, made by people of influence like yourself, that uses your feelings to create a sort of blanket statement that is applied to the entire community. For example, M2Dave truly believes in his heart of hearts (despite a mountain of evidence to prove otherwise) that Deathstroke was nerfed because of the community, so that is spammed across every form of media possible until it becomes an undisputable fact, when it's anything but. People keep saying that the community tore itself apart so people don't go to tournies, but the only people saying that are guys who A) Aren't even going to any of these tournaments and don't see the good times everyone has or B) Guys that have an agenda that they wanna push. Until Final Round 14, who would be caught saying that there were too many "bullies" in the community? NEC 13 was a huge success and then all of a sudden FR hits and now there are too many bullies in the scene. It's so disingenuous.

What needs to happen is just for people to go to tournaments and think for themselves. There are too many guys on the forums who try to make everything a community issue and push blame and negativity towards other groups when none of that is actually true and is actually the sort of goofy drama that underlies competition in general. Skype Illuminati en masse trolling, the King threads pumping himself up, those are just natural competitive garbage with little malice. It's the leaving threads and the "THIS community" threads that are insanely bad and have agendas and should be maligned for what they are: Self serving.

Tl;Dr: Go have fun at tournaments and embrace the competitive side, stop giving attention to drama fiends who just start it because they're mad at whatever dumb and trivial thing that upset them that day.
Good post. I cringe every time I see a post with "this community" in it...
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
You are now known as...

KNOWLEDGESPHERE.
YOOOOOOO THE HYPE DOE

MOTHERFUCKERS ARE EVOLVING LIKE POKEMON AND DEBATING PHYSICS ALL UP IN MY DEBATE <3

...i apologize. That just caught me by very pleasant surprise.

also, @KingHippo with dat knowledge.
That's another solid reason I'm glad I brought this up: the more the scene learns from the mistakes of the past and evolves, the stronger that it and everyone in it can become.
 

EndofGameBoss

That's about right.
Sorry Box, but I'm not going to read the OP and assume it's about Batgirl killing the competitive scene for IGAU. If that is the point of your post, well I'm gonna disagree. I think the game died down quicker than expected is due to it being a new series. I'm willing to bet IGAU 2 will have a slightly longer tournament life, however that depends if MK 11 is released as quickly as MKX is. MKX being announced surly didn't help.
 

Cossner

King of the Jobbers 2015
A lot of people here whinning about batgirl killing the numbers in tournaments without actually going to a single one, not even locals.



Anyway, the only batgirl I've ever lost to in a set is Sonicfox. That's it. The character is ridiculous but she's far from being a game-killing machine. Scrubs.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
A lot of people here whinning about batgirl killing the numbers in tournaments without actually going to a single one, not even locals.



Anyway, the only batgirl I've ever lost to in a set is Sonicfox. That's it. The character is ridiculous but she's far from being a game-killing machine. Scrubs.
A valid point from the Great Lizard.

I know there are plenty of talented and knowledgable dudes among us who literally have no useful means to reach a tournament, but I have no mercy for anyone who opinionates and bitches their life away without ever having seen the inside of actual competition.

None.
 
I'm not really sure why this narrative still comes into play; I know Chance has that baseless theory that drama drove down tournament numbers, but there still is really no evidence to show that the community became any less inviting or attended then the final days of MK9.

I agree that the bitterness went up a lot, but that's also pretty natural. In competition, shockingly, most people don't think anyone is better than they are and are pretty confident in sharing that opinion with anybody who asks (or even doesn't ask). I really don't think we need to fault the players in the community with being competitive and believing that they are good, it's only natural. Hell, you've made a career out of it.

If we're being honest, the big issue is that there are posts like these, made by people of influence like yourself, that uses your feelings to create a sort of blanket statement that is applied to the entire community. For example, M2Dave truly believes in his heart of hearts (despite a mountain of evidence to prove otherwise) that Deathstroke was nerfed because of the community, so that is spammed across every form of media possible until it becomes an undisputable fact, when it's anything but. People keep saying that the community tore itself apart so people don't go to tournies, but the only people saying that are guys who A) Aren't even going to any of these tournaments and don't see the good times everyone has or B) Guys that have an agenda that they wanna push. Until Final Round 14, who would be caught saying that there were too many "bullies" in the community? NEC 13 was a huge success and then all of a sudden FR hits and now there are too many bullies in the scene. It's so disingenuous.

What needs to happen is just for people to go to tournaments and think for themselves. There are too many guys on the forums who try to make everything a community issue and push blame and negativity towards other groups when none of that is actually true and is actually the sort of goofy drama that underlies competition in general. Skype Illuminati en masse trolling, the King threads pumping himself up, those are just natural competitive garbage with little malice. It's the leaving threads and the "THIS community" threads that are insanely bad and have agendas and should be maligned for what they are: Self serving.

Tl;Dr: Go have fun at tournaments and embrace the competitive side, stop giving attention to drama fiends who just start it because they're mad at whatever dumb and trivial thing that upset them that day.
You miss what I mean. I mean the things that are done out of malice. Just ONE example is when top players compare 1 great to another as a way to say one is great and the other is bad. We RARELY have a case when 2 greats not "cool" with each other or in the same clique actually are complementary. Its never "x" player is great and the other is more great. Nope, one is good and one is bad. This is absolutely done out of malice and is used as a way for one player to belittle another. Shit like this ends up turning into a full out war filled with hate, bitterness, and negativity. Many things said and done are just petty ways that we look for to belittle someone that is accomplished, but we aren't cool with, hence that also means we don't believe they are very good.... until we are cool with said player again.

No one is getting rich off of winning fighting game tournaments, this means we do it for pride. We spend hundreds of dollars on a tournament and put our pride as a competitor on the line. Any great player that tries to belittle another great knowing just how much money is spent to even attend these events is 100% doing so out of pure malice.

There is nothing wrong with someone thinking they are better. After all, if you do not believe you can compete than you don't belong in a competition. However, the things we do out of pettiness and bitterness need to die here with IGAU.
 
Incorrect, sir. There is no Kabal-esque character to speak of in IGAU: one, because the physics of the two games + the ways the Kabal MU broke down/how he actually asserts his dominance = there's no way a character could have the incredible build/possession of a crippling move or mechanic and daunting MU statistics Kabal did in a game like IGAU without appearing to be utterly fucked and broken (ex. Day 1 Scorpion); and two, because as bad as Babs can be, there are at least 5 more characters I can think of right off the bat that possess equally fucked up whispers-of-OP-level power and could overrun a tournament easily with the right amount of training and luck: Bane and his Venom, Batman's J2/Bats in tandem, Zod's projectile arsenal, MMH's full screen versatility, and the Fish Man.

This is what happens when you throw dirty tricks around to half the cast in a game that relies almost more on luck than it does on skill and makes it almost impossible to see a difference between the two.
i was joking. i don't keep up with the IGAU scene but i know wheelchair girl isn't the only one with stupid shit.
 

Stevie Steelz

I break muthaf****s...
Batgirl's vortex and damage aside, would it be safe to say that if Injustice had "traditional" rounds instead of having your life bar carry over into the next round, it would make a big difference as to how to deal with a character?
Let's say the match is Batgirl vs. Lobo (I just threw a name out there). What if you're destroyed by Batgirl in the first round with Babs coming into the 2nd round with 85% health of her FIRST bar, then you take damage to win the second round only to be going into the final round with 65% health against her 100% health...
I say all that to say, you have more of an uphill battle against any beast mode characters, let alone Batgirl being that there's a possibility of not playing a full "round' due to starting off with lower than 100% health.
 

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
I'm gonna get hate for this. But I believe Batgirl is above zod. 100% because of meter less vortex and insane corner. At least when zod touches you. You're not on the guess for your life. I think all vortexs should be 1 bar of meter atleast. I just don't like vortexs (and yes I'm a zod main saying this)
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
For example, M2Dave truly believes in his heart of hearts (despite a mountain of evidence to prove otherwise) that Deathstroke was nerfed because of the community, so that is spammed across every form of media possible until it becomes an undisputable fact, when it's anything but.
From what I understand, Deathstroke was recognized as one of the game's most dominant characters in the beta version of the game and thus the early normalizations. The community was innocent in this case. If I had the opportunity to repeat my early Injustice career, I would complain about low gunshots a lot less and spend more time in the lab with Zod. My criticism of the community still stands, though. There has always been a witch-hunt on zoning. The perception usually is, if you zone and win with a top tier character, you are not actually a good fighting game player.
 

d3v

SRK
The Street Fighter community - let's be honest, that's all it is (hey, remember how long the "Capcom" community kept SFxT alive?) - is in a pretty unique position, and it has absolutely nothing to do with community mentality. Street Fighter has been the name-brand competitive fighter for essentially as long as competitive gaming has existed (and as I mention a lot, I cut my teeth on ST), and it's the one and only fighter in the current market that has a self-sustaining critical mass. The entire genre is peanuts compared to say, MOBAs, and it's a very small group of people keeping any other competitive scene for a fighter alive. Pound-for-pound, people who play niche games have more passion than the average Street Fighter fan, especially these days. But if you think simply being the accessible, pop-sensible, lowest common denominator Call of Duty of your genre is a high water mark, well, more power to you, I guess.
Wasn't gonna reply to replies to a joke post, but whatevs.

The comment was more about the difference in how an older, more established community reacts differently to imbalance than a younger one.

For Street Fighter, we can bring out that age old example, SFIII 3rd Strike. For most of its competitive life, there has been one character that has dominated almost all the tournaments - Chun. Yet despite her dominance, the game itself has an active and thriving scene. One that's managed to keep it alive despite numerous other games that came out after it such as Capcom vs. SNK 2 and SFIV. We have a whole group of respected players from both Japan and America that specialize in 3rd Strike - guys like MOV, Rikimaru, Kuroda, KSK, Amir, Sextaro, Rockefeller, etc.
@Lt. Box

ONE PLAYER has ever done well in tournament with batgirl and that is sonicfox.

I have to disagree entirely. What killed the game was the game... because it was built on every character having ridiculous 50/50's into 50/50's into 50/50s. 2 guess and you're dead.
But there have been games that have thrived despite being built on the same foundation (i.e. Guilty Gear). It would probably be more accurate to say that what killed the game was the fact that the community just didn't like set-play.