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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Welcome to session 2 of Boxy Theory 101 :D.

Today, we speak on the subject of lost potential in the shadow of great success: Injustice, and my personal belief that Barbara Gordon is responsible for stunting its growth, both in competition and in hope for the human soul.

First of all: a hearty congratulations to @SonicFox5000 for his victory at Final Round, and for furthering his legacy as one of the FGC's most dominant and valuable players ever to plug in a pad. You have always and will always scare the living hell out of me on the battlefield. Much Boxy love, all day.


With that being said...I feel as though this subject, that has given me pause for almost 2 years, must be addressed and discussed with you lovely people, because I feel as though I can't be the only person who feels thusly...

Ask yourself this: if you're an aspiring competitive player, and you're on the fence about seriously pursuing a campaign into competition...how shattered into pieces is your soul after watching a SonicFox final? Or more specifically, having to watch Batgirl mauling after Batgirl mauling and know that there is no path to success that doesn't go through her?

Injustice has come a LONG way. It's host to a still-strong arsenal of brilliant and powerful players who've made it worth watching and supporting since its inception. It's a blast, it's an addiction, I still love to play it/get hype for it, and it's helped the NRS scene as a whole develop and grow and learn and all that goodness in many a useful way...

...but I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the moment I saw Batgirl and experienced her, and saw the direction her game coupled with the IGAU physics themselves were going to force the metagame to go, that Injustice was never going to break the glass ceiling that MK9 almost shattered or become a tactically-superior fighter, and that there was no way I was going to subject myself to the same insane ritualistic training I did coming up in MK9. Babs killed my boner, plain and simple.
In spite of the host of unique and standout-ish character designs and playstyle combinations - Lex Luthor's screen control, Doomsday's ruthless speed, Nightwing's stances, so on and so forth - it ALWAYS comes back to the 50/50 armored/unarmored guessing game and who can force you to play it the best. Which would've been fine, were it not for the fact that this character was literally built to not only control the screen better than almost the entire cast, but whose up-close and corner game can EFFORTLESSLY destroy the escape plans of an opponent no matter what they have to throw back at her. No, the girl isn't indestructible, she isn't quite Kabal or ST Akuma, but I felt/knew back then that if my major stake in IGAU was simply to improve and stay sharp as a player until MKX came to surface, there was little sense in driving myself insane training to compete in what Batgirl essentially turned into a giant game of Bat Paper Scissors. And I feel like the potential for growth and evolution there was suffered immensely starting with her, when the inevitable 50/50 future starting dawning on more and more players, especially online/at large outside of the tournament scene.

Case in point: previously mentioned Grand Champion Fox. It would likely have made no difference to him if there had been a Batgirl or not; he would've stuck with Harley and probably broken in one of the other ladies, and he still would've run roughshod over the scene regardless.
But there have been too many times, watching him or other Babs players at work, where no matter how good or respectable they are, you watch the fight break out and the gimmicks kick in, and I say to myself "this character is fucked."
I just feel like this game could've gone a lot further if it didn't revolve around such absurd guessing game shenanigans, and for me, that's always going to come back to Batgirl making me see that. Sonic deserves all the props in the world for being the champ, but the potential IGAU had to be extra-fuck-all amazing went out the window when she came swinging in.


Thoughts? Feels?
 
i just think her damage is too high. if the Corner Combo ended at 35% shed be fine. other than that vortex characters are a concept that is ok.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I have all the respect in the world for SonicFox and his achievements in Injustice. He is very clearly one of the best players, but lets not beat around the bush.

He would not be mauling people as disgustingly with Harley as he does with Batgirl. This character is fucked, but having said that, SonicFox is the one that makes her fucked.
 
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Amplified$hotz

Leggo Sinestro!
But there were a lot of complaints about injustice even before Batgirl, especially since it was after Mortal Kombat. And as Sonicfox once said set play is all over this game. What you just said about Batgirl can be said about Flash, Sinestro, MMH, Wonder Woman, Joker even. All of them can take a bar at any given time without you even knowing what just happened.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
i just think her damage is too high. if the Corner Combo ended at 35% shed be fine. other than that vortex characters are a concept that is ok.
Damage has actually very little to do with anything. The Flash and Superman can do more damage in the corner.

It is the MB teleport that makes Batgirl random. If the MB teleport did not lead to a 50/50 mix up, she would be balanced, and Batgirl players would have to make the approach the traditional way, in which scenario none of them would ever win anything, much less a major tournament, as their fundamentals are atrocious and they do not block half the time.
 
Damage has actually very little to do with anything. The Flash and Superman can do more damage in the corner.

It is the MB teleport that makes Batgirl random. If the MB teleport did not lead to a 50/50 mix up, she would be balanced, and Batgirl players would have to make the approach the traditional way, in which scenario none of them would ever win anything, much less a major tournament, as their fundamentals are atrocious and they do not block half the time.
the teleport is not a problem at all cause you will block and punish for 30%+ most time. yes always being ready for it locks you down and stops most zoning, but you will crack batgirl open enough times with other methods. just not if you are dead in 2 corner Combos.
 

Eric The Scruffy

Premium
Premium Supporter
Batgirl didn't kill Injustice. If any characters killed injustice it was Superman and Black Adam. The truth is that outside the tym bubble people still think that they dominate this game and have no clue what the hell is going on. Hell, most people still think the game is nothing but zoning. And within the TYM bubble, Aquaman and Manhunter were already being used as excuses for why people were quitting long before the fox started mauling people. The truth is that nothing specifically killed this game. The truth is more simple/complicated depending on your perspective. Some people like the game, some people don't, for various reasons.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Royal Contributor
the teleport is not a problem at all cause you will block and punish for 30%+ most time. yes always being ready for it locks you down and stops most zoning, but you will crack batgirl open enough times with other methods. just not if you are dead in 2 corner Combos.
"Yes, always being ready for it locks you down and stops most zoning..."

Yeah, which is kind of the number one problem for most characters who would either go even or beat her.

Most of the time you are "dead in two corner combos" because you were hit by the teleport and guessed wrong twice.
 
"Yes, always being ready for it locks you down and stops most zoning..."

Yeah, which is kind of the number one problem for most characters who would either go even or beat her.

Most of the time you are "dead in two corner combos" because you were hit by the teleport and guessed wrong twice.
i dunno. i play a zoning character (raven) and i have no problem with the teleport. you can still zone a bit, if batgirl fears the punish, you just cant get too reckless with it.
 

Juffalo

Noob
Did anyone aside from SonicFox win a major with Batgirl ?

I think she's as stupid as the next person but Sonic is just really good at making her look broken

Floe tried to pick up Batgirl believing that the character would carry him without the required game knowledge and he was very quickly dismissed from the bracket.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
Damage has actually very little to do with anything. The Flash and Superman can do more damage in the corner.

It is the MB teleport that makes Batgirl random. If the MB teleport did not lead to a 50/50 mix up, she would be balanced, and Batgirl players would have to make the approach the traditional way, in which scenario none of them would ever win anything, much less a major tournament, as their fundamentals are atrocious and they do not block half the time.
THAT. THAT STUPID FUCKING MOVE.

...sorry, lost my cool there, but yeah, that's about the size of it.
No one makes the entire 50/50 guess process more terrifying than she does, and the simple fact that she has this move makes her that much more efficient at getting the opponent in that spot.
On top of the Bola cancels.
On top of the 3-hit meterless Cartwheel.
On top of the 4 options in the Evade.

Me personally, I don't mind her anymore. Batgirl can't hurt me, only Fox can. I play her as Doomsday and I can't really complain. I play her myself and I REALLY can't complain. But it felt like overkill then, and it feels like combining her with Sonic gave rise to a perfect storm. And I don't know about you, but I've seen that movie dozens of times, and I remember how bad an idea it can be to sail into a hurricane. And that's exactly what I feel is the kind of thing that kept everyone who was on the fence out of the race. And while that storm led to to rise of several elite players and plenty of hype matches and moments - and again, I <3 this game - it feels like everything stagnated when the game became a giant 50/50, and even before the Wrath of Fox began, its fate and maximum height were already sealed.

And to me, that moment always felt like when Babs showed up and killed my boner. Of course, the rise of KI was a part of it too for certain.
 

STB Sgt Reed

Online Warrior
Premium Supporter
I just feel like this game could've gone a lot further if it didn't revolve around such absurd guessing game shenanigans, and for me, that's always going to come back to Batgirl making me see that.
The game was always about the easy 50/50s... since day 1. lol

That's why I hated it.
 

WakeUp DP

GT MK OshTekk.
70% bnbs into safe 50/50s plus on block and full combo on hit is (soap bar in my mouth). But theres more to it than Batgirl that ruined the game.

No solid AAs.
Shitty wake up attacks.
Shitty mobility.
Garbage 0 range pokes.
Input drops, negative edge etc etc.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
The game was always about the easy 50/50s... since day 1. lol

That's why I hated it.
And that's exactly at the center of this.
It's competitvely uninspiring.
As a character and a player seperately, one is designed and the other is a person(he may be like a chinese fox deity for all we know) but they both already capable of completely breaking the game into pieces. Fox can make Top 3 or outright win damn near any fighting game there is. And if Kenshi proved anything, it's that small player base doesn't cancel out a character's ridiculous capabilities, which means Batgirl is still a ticking time bomb with or without Fox. Putting them together was like when Kratos stormed Mount Olympus with the Titans: you didn't know quite how it would end, but you knew it was on its way.
 

Crusty

Retired ATM
Damage has actually very little to do with anything. The Flash and Superman can do more damage in the corner.

It is the MB teleport that makes Batgirl random. If the MB teleport did not lead to a 50/50 mix up, she would be balanced, and Batgirl players would have to make the approach the traditional way, in which scenario none of them would ever win anything, much less a major tournament, as their fundamentals are atrocious and they do not block half the time.
That teleport is one of the least concerns at high level gameplay. The reason why her corner game is so damn ridiculous is because not only is the damage so high but she also the fact that she can do all this damage on a right guess. Superman and Flash on the other hand have to open you up to do their damage in the corner and its not safe, Batgirl has safe 50/50s which is why she's above those two in that regard. She can open up the opponent without a lot of consequence while Superman and (to some extent) Flash have reactable mixups that can be blocked on reaction most of the time (depends on the player).

However, if you're talking about teleport limiting your mobility then yeah there is a problem there. But as far as I've seen Foxx doesn't throw that out often when he uses Babs unless he's trying to close something out.

Also it is somewhat easy to react to when it is thrown out, but that is just me. The only problem's to poses to me are interactable control and the inability to jump.