Question What is the general consensus on the patches? And what should be added/removed?

[Scott The Scot]

I'd skip it, personally. All that would be is a buff to a strong character. Reset is the only issue I real issue I remember with Smoke.

You had d1 harassment, but was it a "problem"? And point-blank Smoke Bomb might not be punishable by a lot of the roster. Judgment call. Spear, Net, Ice Blast, and other disablers were death on block.

His D1 is -13. That harrassment was a bill and people not learning to punish with at least another poke (or a combo)

I'm okay with Smokes resets and F4 not being special cancelable.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

@GGA Jeremiah
Don't want to bother you, but i'm still waiting on Sheeva.

I had asked you some questions earlier, but I guess you didn't see them. Oh well here goes.

Frame data changes
f4 -3 on block (from -7)
f3 cancel advantage on block changed to +20 on block (from +16)
d3 cancel advantage on hit changed to +20 on hit (from +19)
b2 make +3 on block (from +0)
b1 make 14 frame startup (from 21)

Hit box changes
On 2,1,2,F1, string must increase the F1 part so that it hits ALL the cast members.
Increase the hitbox on fireball to be lower to the ground (but keep same height) so that it can no longer be low profiled by d3s and d4s. Sonya Blade's d4 for example

Special move buffs
Have telestomp (jump stomp) to have priority over standing normal moves. But still have it lose to neutral jump punches and kicks, as well as diagonal jump punches and kicks.
Let ground pound be able to cancel into any other special moves (jump stomp, anti-air grab, low grab, grab n punch, fireball.)
Increase damage of anti-air grab by 4% and Power anti-air by 4% as well.

Good start here.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I had asked you some questions earlier, but I guess you didn't see them. Oh well here goes.

Frame data changes
f4 -3 on block (from -7)
f3 cancel advantage on block changed to +20 on block (from +16)
d3 cancel advantage on hit changed to +20 on hit (from +19)
b2 make +3 on block (from +0)
b1 make 14 frame startup (from 21)

Hit box changes
On 2,1,2,F1, string must increase the F1 part so that it hits ALL the cast members.
Increase the hitbox on fireball to be lower to the ground (but keep same height) so that it can no longer be low profiled by d3s and d4s. Sonya Blade's d4 for example

Special move buffs
Have telestomp (jump stomp) to have priority over standing normal moves. But still have it lose to neutral jump punches and kicks, as well as diagonal jump punches and kicks.
Let ground pound be able to cancel into any other special moves (jump stomp, anti-air grab, low grab, grab n punch, fireball.)
Increase damage of anti-air grab by 4% and Power anti-air by 4% as well.

Good start here.

What does Sheeva gain from an extra frame of cancel advantage from D3?

 

[Deyrax]

Kano - Armored en choke, choke from -1 to 0, old upball, old knives, air ball from 8 to 11 damage
Nightwolf - f3 low, second hit of en axe overhead, reflect reflects everything

 

[THTB]

His D1 is -13. That harrassment was a bill and people not learning to punish with at least another poke (or a combo)

I'm okay with Smokes resets and F4 not being special cancelable.

The problem with punishing is you had to come out of block really fast and hope you reacted fast enough in case he cancels to smoke bomb. The harassment was real because you didn't want to die for reacting like grandpa.

@GGA Jeremiah I'm curious about that d3 change also.

 

[TwiztidOne]

So, next character is Smoke
Resets are gone, F4's recovery frames on hit have been increased, and thus, it's no longer possible to do those resets.
However, trying to get 214 to combo into non EX Smoke Bomb has been hell: If I decrease the recovery frames for it/and or increase the speed of the animation, it still doesn't work, unless I use the EX version, but the game counts it as a reset. Not to mention, it leads to rather high damage combos in the corner (upwards of 30%, you can get to 37% easily)
The only ways possible I imagine solving this without breaking the crap out of Smoke, are either A) altering the reaction speed to this attack, which, due to it's absence in the tweakvars (as I've stated earlier, not everything is handled by the vars) is going to be a hexadecimal hunt. or B) increase the speed, and/or possibly hitbox of the non EX Smoke Bomb to allow it to combo from that string.
Any suggestions guys? is the 214 buff absolutely necessary? or can I skip it?

214~smoke bomb combing midescreen isn't necessary, but is there anyway you can make 214 mid mid mid?

 

[EdenianWarrior]

When this patch comes out, can someone put out combo videos for characters who couldn't do certain combos before? I want to see how good Jade is and what combo potential she has now, along with Rain, Mileena, Sindel, Scorpion, etc.

 

[Scott The Scot]

The problem with punishing is you had to come out of block really fast and hope you reacted fast enough in case he cancels to smoke bomb. The harassment was real because you didn't want to die for reacting like grandpa.

@GGA Jeremiah I'm curious about that d3 change also.

Meh, I had no problem with it lol.

 

[THTB]

Meh, I had no problem with it lol.

If you get the read on the poke, it's all good. Just when you aren't 100% on point and the Smoke kills you for it lol...tfw.

 

[Scott The Scot]

If you get the read on the poke, it's all good. Just when you aren't 100% on point and the Smoke kills you for it lol...tfw.

I hear you. But for me it was just a like built in after a while to punish D1's instinctively when blocked. I blocked a poke and just pressed x,y, or z depending on the character

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

What does Sheeva gain from an extra frame of cancel advantage from D3?

Wouldn't you like to know

What harm could 1 little frame do?

Well now on hit if the opponent is holding down it will jail into low grab. Anytime you see a Sheeva player asking to have cancel advantage of +20 we are looking for low grab to jail. Don't mind us.

 

[Scott The Scot]

Wouldn't you like to know

What harm could 1 little frame do?

Well now on hit if the opponent is holding down it will jail into low grab. Anytime you see a Sheeva player asking to have cancel advantage of +20 we are looking for low grab to jail. Don't mind us.

Oh well that's fine lol.

It's still blockable so sure, I don't see why she shouldn't have it. Also, if I remember correctly the characters have different hit advantage/cancel hit advantage on block when crouching vs standing. I never knew the advantage Sheeva had but are you talking about standing or crouching advantage? I assume crouching lol.

 

[NSR]

@GGA Jeremiah
I did answer you, you didn't see it.
Oh well, nevermind. I can do those changes. Although don't be surprised if the frame data changes don't turn out to be exact.
Damage changes? possible as well. (this one I can do exactly as you ask, this is all due to MK9's coding, some things turn out perfect, and other don't)
Same thing goes for hitbox changes, but changing priority of attacks? actual coding of the attacks? emmm, doubt it. Haven't been able to mod Noob's EX Shadow Slide to produce a different reaction, for instance, so, yeah.
Same thing with adding armor to an attack that previously had none (impossible to do at the moment) and making an attack cancellable (though, I'll compare vanilla Jax and KE Jax to see how they did it, it's possible it's just one value change in the data2 files. However, if it's additional coding, i'm screwed)
I was also thinking of reducing the recovery on Sheeva's fireball, and increasing her Xray damage to 41% (this is based on suggestions of users)
Also making the armor of the EX Teleport Stomp last through the whole animation.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

@GGA Jeremiah
I did answer you, you didn't see it.
Oh well, nevermind. I can do those changes. Although don't be surprised if the frame data changes don't turn out to be exact.
Damage changes? possible as well. (this one I can do exactly as you ask, this is all due to MK9's coding, some things turn out perfect, and other don't)
Same thing goes for hitbox changes, but changing priority of attacks? actual coding of the attacks? emmm, doubt it. Haven't been able to mod Noob's EX Shadow Slide to produce a different reaction, for instance, so, yeah.
Same thing with adding armor to an attack that previously had none (impossible to do at the moment) and making an attack cancellable (though, I'll compare vanilla Jax and KE Jax to see how they did it, it's possible it's just one value change in the data2 files. However, if it's additional coding, i'm screwed)
I was also thinking of reducing the recovery on Sheeva's fireball, and increasing her Xray damage to 41% (this is based on suggestions of users)
Also making the armor of the EX Teleport Stomp last through the whole animation.

Recovery on fireball might make it too good. The issue with the fireball is the hitbox. Increased X-Ray damage is meh. Armor though the whole telestomp would be nice.

If you can't do the ground pound cancel thing, then she would probably need a damage buff somewhere. Maybe fireball damage, or 1,2,b1 string.

 

[Goat-City]

I already made his D1 faster, can't tell the exact frame data,sorry.
U3 is also faster, and you can perform a special move after 21U3 (yes, you can link it with Trance)

Please leave the rune trap in. It makes Quan special and he has it in MKX too so clearly it's an intentional part of his design that shouldn't be messed with much.

 

[NSR]

the rune trap is still in, relax. the only thing that was nerfed was the damage the EX Burst did (7% now, instead of 10%)

 

[NSR]

well @GGA Jeremiah
I'm gonna test the changes now, but here's what I've implemented so far:
Sheeva
The hitbox of 212F1's last hit was made bigger so that it hits all characters.
Fireball's hitbox is bigger: certain characters who could avoid it by doing crouching attacks, can no longer do so.
Anti-Air Grab's (both versions) damage has been increased by 4%
XRay damage has been increased to 41%
EX Teleport Stomp's armor duration has been doubly increased: it should now last through the entire animation.
B1 is faster
B2's recovery frames on block have been slightly reduced.
F4's recovery frames on block have been slightly reduced.
12B1's damage has been increased: 2's hit from this string does 5% damage now, while the last hit, B1, does 10% damage, for a total of 16% damage.
btw, sorry for my ignorance but by cancel advantage on block and on hit, you mean the recovery frames? I haven't done anything with F3 and D3 yet because of my lack of knowledge on this.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

well @GGA Jeremiah
btw, sorry for my ignorance but by cancel advantage on block and on hit, you mean the recovery frames? I haven't done anything with F3 and D3 yet because of my lack of knowledge on this.

Here is the data for Sheeva's d3, maybe this will help.

startup 7f. Takes Sheeva 7 frames to hit someone.

on block -7. When someone blocks her d3 Sheeva is -7.

on hit +3. When Sheeva hits someone with her d3 she is +3.

duration 20. When Sheeva whiffs a d3 it takes 20 frames until she can do something else.

Cancel on block +2. So Sheeva inputs d3 and cancels into fireball which has a startup of 26 frames. The opponent blocks the d3 and Sheeva cancels so she is +2 so the fireball comes out in 24 frames.

Cancel on hit +12. So Sheeva inputs d3 and cancels into fireball that is 26 frame startup. The opponent gets hit by the d3 so the fireball comes out in 14 frames instead of 26.

 

[NSR]

I haven't seen any cancel advantage data on the tweakvars: there's blockbreakframe(recovery frames on block, how many the characters has to go through before they can move again) missbreakframe and hitbreakframe.

 

[NSR]

well, I'm having trouble getting the fireball not to whiff on Sonya's d4.
I'll see what I can do about that, but in the mean time, here's some other buffs I had in mind for Sheeva:
F2 is faster
F3 is faster
B2 is faster.
Can't say the exact frame data, but obviously they are not going to be super fast,just a slight speed boost to make them more useful (they won't be, say twice as fast)

 

[NSR]

I can only find the collision radius for the fireball, but not the size. Seems like i'm going to have to leave it like it is, Jeremiah. Sorry.
Also, I can't find the damage values for the airgrab itself (as in, Sheeva's slamming down the opponent and stepping on them) but I can find the damage value for the actual grab (which normally does 1%). I increased it to 4%, but the EX version scales the damage so it removes a 1% damage from the slam, just right before Sheeva steps the opponent). so, it's 4% increase for the non EX and 3% increase for the EX version.
I'm sorry if i'm disappointing you, but i'm doing the best I can.

 

[Deyrax]

well @GGA Jeremiah
I'm gonna test the changes now, but here's what I've implemented so far:
Sheeva
The hitbox of 212F1's last hit was made bigger so that it hits all characters.
Fireball's hitbox is bigger: certain characters who could avoid it by doing crouching attacks, can no longer do so.
Anti-Air Grab's (both versions) damage has been increased by 4%
XRay damage has been increased to 41%
EX Teleport Stomp's armor duration has been doubly increased: it should now last through the entire animation.
B1 is faster
B2's recovery frames on block have been slightly reduced.
F4's recovery frames on block have been slightly reduced.
12B1's damage has been increased: 2's hit from this string does 5% damage now, while the last hit, B1, does 10% damage, for a total of 16% damage.
btw, sorry for my ignorance but by cancel advantage on block and on hit, you mean the recovery frames? I haven't done anything with F3 and D3 yet because of my lack of knowledge on this.

Do you realize you made her broken ? The only thing she needed was to make b2, 1+2 bf3 combo not fucking whiff depending on stance. 41% on a ranged unblockable ? More damage on a grab that already does shit ton of damage ? Yeah, nice balance bub.

 

[NSR]

Jeremiah himself requested the anti air grab buff so if you have a problem with that, argue with him, I just applied the buff as he requested, not to mention, Sheeva is hardly broken with these changes: other characters like Smoke (and keep in mind he no longer has the reset) are faster,smaller, and still capable of dealing heavy damage.
As for the 41% Xray, you DO realize that it's completely impossible to combo off it, not to mention, characters can simply jump over it and punish Sheeva?
It's not a slow Xray but it isn't super fast like Sub's. If anything, it brings it closer to Kano and Jax's Xrays, who both can't combo off it as well.
All work is subject to change, and this mod isn't even OUT. Wait until it comes out, and then we'll see if Sheeva needs some more adjustments.

 

[NSR]

Final list of changes for Sheeva, It seems, regarding Jax's GP cancel, that they added more stuff to the tweakvars, so yeah, it's additional coding, which means no deal for cancellable GP for Sheeva. Anyways, here's the list:
Sheeva
The hitbox of 212F1's last hit was made bigger so that it hits all crouching characters.
Anti-Air Grab's damage has been increased by 4%, while it's EX version has been increased by 3%
XRay damage has been increased to 41%
EX Teleport Stomp's armor duration has been doubly increased: it should now last through the entire animation.
B1 is faster
B2 is faster
F2 is faster
F3 is faster
B2's recovery frames on block have been reduced.
F4's recovery frames on block have been reduced.
12B1's damage has been increased: 2's hit from this string does 5% damage now, while the last hit, B1, does 9% damage, for a total of 16% damage.

 

[NSR]

So, I'm modding Tsung (in his case, there will be few changes, given he's solid Mid tier and not really a broken nor underpowered character) and Sindel (definitely some damage buffs will be applied to her) but I would love a detailed breakdown on Baraka and Cyber Sub-Zero. Also a bit more info on Rain, possibly Raiden as well.