Question What is the general consensus on the patches? And what should be added/removed?

[Eddy Wang]

She is A yes. And she is mostly good due her armor being a sort of a butt load, she can go from 29 to 45 using only a single move with armor.

But she also can't wakeup without meter, and her pressure game is not 100% reliable, but still good though.

The nerfs are reducing her armor down to 15f duration, so she can't extend anymore, disabling her ability to absorb as many hits as she likes.
The blockstring chip too could use some nerf, that is why i said 6% of the string instead of 8%, with 8% she deals 10% damage and can loop 5 times dealing 50% chip damage.

The other buffs including the dash into U34 she needs it.

 

[NSR]

ok, I'll see what I can do when I get to her.
Anyways, I'm still not done with CSZ (can't get the iceball speed down. It seems like it alters the EX one instead of the regular one) but I got the next characters down:
Baraka
Second hit of 221+2's hitbox has been increased so it doesn't whiff on crouching opponents.
EX and non EX Blade Slide's hitboxes have been increased so that they don't whiff on crouching opponents.
F44's recovery on hit has been slightly reduced so it's easier for Baraka to combo from this.
F44 is now special cancellable.

Kitana
EX and non EX Pretty Kicks now hit Mid.
EX Square Boost speed is slightly quicker.

Mileena
Standing 2 is faster.
F2 is faster.
F3 is faster.
Leaping Neckbite (both versions) is slightly faster.
EX Neckbite's last hit does 11% now, thus the damage of the move itself has been increased to 18%. If a Sai is attached to the opponent, it now does 22%. (Don't worry about damage being too high in a combo, though. Damage scaling is still in effect and it does significantly decrease the amount of damage, especially when done with her BNBs, so don't expect +40% combos)
Roll input changed to BF4. (Move list has been updated to show the new input)
Her normal version of her 1st fatality is now used on Kratos.

Guys, I need some input here: Jax being able to popup from 2F2B1 means he can do close to 40% damage without meter. I was thinking of nerfing the actual combo itself to do 16% rather than 19%, as the 12 strings don't do as much damage as that combo. That way, he can keep his midscreen damage upgrade, without making it too powerful.
Stryker is another case, ATM, he can chain 3 combos of 12 after B122's popup, along with an uppercut, leading to an easy 38% meterless combo. Hell, if you are able to get 4 combos (very hard to do) and then finish with standing 4, you get 40%. Corner wise, he can get up to 44%.
I'm probably going to nerf him, but I'm kinda hesitant, given he's close to the bottom tier, and he's not exactly the best at close range combat. (well, B3 being faster should definitely help) Probably going to make it so that he can do up to two 12 combos after the popup, maybe three if you are really fast. That way, his damage is far more manageable.

 

[STRYKIE]

Been a while since I checked out the progress in this thread, but @NSR I noticed you were able to adjust the collision issues of Jax's F41 string, do you think it would possible to do this for Scorpion's EX spear without it looking aesthetically nonsensical? It is intended to be a true mid but can be low profiled by some pokes, or even neutral crouched by some characters IIRC correctly.

Also, I read that Sonya's cartwheel and EX cartwheel are tied to the same coding and is not possible to adjust the frames on block for one without adjusting the other. Would it be worth looking into whether this comes into play for others moves and other properties such as startup?

Oh and about Stryker, he was honestly a contender for the worst character in the game in the final build. And 38% midscreen is still below the median average, I wouldn't worry about consequences of proposed changes to him for the minute.

 

[NSR]

alright then, I'll leave Stryker as it is. (I'll probably leave Jax too, in that case)
I'm just worried about some characters jumping tiers, ala Shinnok in MKX, for example.
Stryker is a serious contender for that, no joke. If B3 being about twice as fast, and his upgraded strings are anything to indicate, he could be at least B tier now.
At least, that's what I'm hoping for.
Anyways, IDK man, I couldn't get Sheeva's fireball not to whiff, so anything goes with MK9's coding. For instance: I just realized I wasn't upgrading CSZ's iceball speed. (this is despite the tweakvar being labeled AS iceball_speed) Oh no, IT'S THE EX ONE. Why the hell didn't they add an _ex there? unless there was some bug with the decryption of the hashes.
As for startup, guys, there's technically no "startup" hash or variable in MK9. What there is, is speed, which controls the overall speed of the move (barring projectile velocity) even the frames for recovery, specifically, how fast does the animation go (but not how many frames the character has to go through before regaining control) There are some exceptions, though, some characters have a speed value for say, when a move misses or gets blocked (Krueger's clawspikes/Hell Spike, for example)
Technically speaking, every move I made faster, has in some way or another, altered the recovery frames. You might think "Then why don't you add more frames in the blockbreakframe data?" well, that's what I did with Sonya, and it wasn't really working out, because she eventually reaches the end of the animation and thus, regains control. It's kinda like how Sub doesn't seem to be really affected by the missbreakframe (whiff recovery frames) data of the Slide, and there's no Miss animation speed, instead, it's tied directly to the standard speed value (but there is a separate block speed and hit speed, so he's also another exception...sorta) It's a bit of a mess, really, and most characters aren't programmed consistently, for example, some characters have the tag data (changetagguy_combo, something like that) at the start of the tweakvars, while others, like Baraka, have it near the end. Others don't seem to have them at all.
Nightwolf has hashes pointing to OLDattack3 (????, did Nightwolf have a different standing 3 during development?) while Cyrax has Baraka vars (and they don't seem to do anything) at the start.
As you can see, MK9's coding...can be quite problematic at times to say the least. I'm doing the best I can, though. It isn't DNF where it's Unreal 1 mixed with Unreal 2 mixed with God only knows wtf, so it isn't that incompetent of an engine, but there are parts of MK9's coding that scream amateur to me. And i'm not a coder, for your information.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Sub-Zero: Change the last hit of F4, 2+1 to a low ( Visual-wise it looks like a low, instead its a mid)

- Remove the gap in-between 1 2 from his 2 1 2 blockstring (Its his go to string to maintain pressure)

I have two for Johnny Cage as well:

- Decrease the pushback on on 2 1 F2 blockstring on hit so he can constantly combo 2 1 F2 > Dash F3 > Nutpunch midscreen

- Decrease the start-up or recovery frames on his Forceball to help compete with other zoners.

 

[NSR]

Pushback is something out of the question (doesn't seem to be handled by the tweakvars and it's unknown exactly how it's handled) for now, but I can alter his recovery frames so he can obtain more damage from 21F2 easily.
As for Sub, I'm not sure about changing F4 1+2 to low. I mean, he now has standing 2 as a Mid, so he could gain an extra Low attack in exchange, but let me think about that.
Anyways, I'll get working on Cage soon.
I added a few extra changes for Stryker
B32 is now special cancellable.
232 is now special cancellable.
He now uses the normal version of his 2nd fatality on Kratos.
As for Cyber Sub, I couldn't do the Iceball speed upgrade. Sorry. Maybe I'll get back to him later.
He also uses the normal version of his 2nd fatality on Kratos now (sensing a pattern here? hehe)
Anyways, we are currently at 22 characters out of 32! If this keeps going like this, maybe i'll have the mod ready by this weekend or next week.
Get psyched!

 

[NSR]

ok, Johnny Cage is done, it was actually surprisingly quick to do:
Johnny Cage
21F2's recovery frames on hit have been reduced, thus allowing Cage to make combos from this string at midscreen much easier.
F33's recovery frames on block have been increased.
Non EX and EX Low and High Forceball's startup speed have been increased. (same speed increase for all)
He now uses the normal version of his 2nd fatality on Kratos. (It's a bit buggy, though.)

Ermac's changes are done, but I'm thinking of applying a few extra buffs to make up for the inability to add armor to the teleport, among other things.
Ermac
B1 now hits Low.
F1 is faster.
F4 is special cancellable now.
Fireball (both versions) is faster (Projectile velocity is not affected by this change.)

Ermac shares only one value for non EX and EX Fireball. In other words, if you alter the speed, you alter both.
What other buffs should I apply? I thought of making 121, namely 2, hit Low.
Possibly decrease the recovery frames on the TK Push, but I don't want to make Ermac uber powerful.

 

[james1926]

No need to change anything right now, just wanted to state Mileena's changes are a bit of no point. F3 being faster is an ok change, F2 will still be useless, and neckbite will basically (maybe) only give 1% more damage to her combos (since ending combos with neckbite is the only practical usage for the move).

2 was 16 frames and a high. Unless is now below 12 frames this change is useless since she already has a 13 frames high and a 14 frames mid.

Also changing the input for roll will do more harm than good in my opinion.

So her best change would have been for ex neckbite or ex roll to have armour, but since this is not possible yet, I recommend a slightly faster roll (from 12 to 10), and adjust d1(It's -6 on hit, if you make it 0 or +1 would immediately fix her considering the top tier nerfs).

 

[THTB]

The Cage f3 after 21f2 stuff is consistent, as is double f3. It requires a longer dash cancel to do is all. What isn't consistent is f3 to 44, which in reality doesn't need to be a consistent part of his BnB. Also, forceball doesn't need to be faster, but the second hit of EX forceball should be fixed to consistently connect on block on the entire cast.

Jax might not need that much if you're fixing his f41 and giving him better midscreen damage anyway. I'd agree with lowering the damage slightly.

Stryker does need all the stuff he's getting, though.

If you can change the inputs, I'd change telekick for Mileena to something else...maybe down down like in MKX. Also, if you can't change blocking hurtboxes to fix Reptile getting jailed by her telekick sai on stand block, then try and adjust the hurt and hitbox on it so that it works properly. He's the only character this happens to.

 

[NSR]

I'll see what I can do regarding Reptile, but to answer @james1926
Keep in mind, the input change was suggested by @Eddy Wang
I have to say, it was actually a good idea, I found it much easier to combo from that input than from BD4. Also, while I can't give exact frame data, 2 should be below 12 frames, or at least 13 frames.
EX Neckbite does give off a decent damage upgrade when used at the end of combos from my testing, it's possible to get close to 40% now. And it least makes the move (especially with it's speed buff, even if it's a slight one) way more useful outside of combos.
But still, James, I'm gonna keep those suggestions in mind when I go over the characters again. I have to say, you read my mind, LOL! I was actually thinking of making her D1 better. That's more than likely going to happen.
I'm gonna get working on Reptile and Sektor in the meanwhile.

 

[just_2swift]

Sektor changes? @PND_Ketchup

 

[ienjoywinning]

She is A yes. And she is mostly good due her armor being a sort of a butt load, she can go from 29 to 45 using only a single move with armor.

But she also can't wakeup without meter, and her pressure game is not 100% reliable, but still good though.

The nerfs are reducing her armor down to 15f duration, so she can't extend anymore, disabling her ability to absorb as many hits as she likes.
The blockstring chip too could use some nerf, that is why i said 6% of the string instead of 8%, with 8% she deals 10% damage and can loop 5 times dealing 50% chip damage.

The other buffs including the dash into U34 she needs it.

How can she do 50% chip ? Not that i want to try it or something

 

[THTB]

How can she do 50% chip ? Not that i want to try it or something

f2121+2 xx EX dagger cancel, repeat. Only works on standing opponents.

 

[SHAOLIN]

Yo! THTB please tell me how you get F3 after 21F2 midscreen consistently, it whiffs like 7 out of 10 times for me

 

[THTB]

Yo! THTB please tell me how you get F3 after 21F2 midscreen consistently, it whiffs like 7 out of 10 times for me

I would do like half a dash, then f3. I could get f3, f3 consistently when I did play around with Cage.

 

[just_2swift]

Rains d3 was negative on hit? NSR help the Prince

 

[NSR]

guys, well @Eddy Wang
what allows a character to be able to special cancel a move is known as allow2in1. Oddly enough, in cases like Stryker and Sindel's strings, said variable is there, just turned off (possibly a leftover from an earlier version of MK9, or they coded it just in case they wanted to turn it on in a future patch), but there are cases where said 2in1 is nonexistent. Reptile's 1221 doesn't have that, sadly. So, unless someday, it's possible to add additional coding to MK9, it's impossible to make Reptile's 1221 special cancellable.
F2B1 also has no 2in1 variable. Most likely because NRS thought 1221 and F2B1 wouldn't need it, given they launch the opponent. Then again, that's my theory as to what NRS was thinking when making Reptile for this game.

 

[Rude]

I don't think Reptile needs any major buffs. He's a very good character in MK9.

 

[just_2swift]

Yeah reptile was godlike I'd leave him the way he is unless he had some buggs.

 

[NSR]

He wasn't completely godlike: his dashes were garbage: slow, and they didn't cover much distance, which made a pain in the ass to get anywhere, unless you used the elbow dashes.
The distance covered by dashes doesn't seem to be covered by the tweakvars, but what I was thinking was making his dashes quicker, and giving elbow dash (non EX version only) slightly more recovery frames on block.
A tradeoff, much like JC's pressure on block with F33 being nerfed, while 21F2's on hit recovery frames were reduced.
that, and a couple of upgrades for D1, D2 and D3.
I'm thinking of going back to Ermac and making his D3 better. Probably will do so for Rain as well, once I get to him.

 

[Rude]

He wasn't completely godlike: his dashes were garbage: slow, and they didn't cover much distance, which made a pain in the ass to get anywhere, unless you used the elbow dashes.
The distance covered by dashes doesn't seem to be covered by the tweakvars, but what I was thinking was making his dashes quicker, and giving elbow dash (non EX version only) slightly more recovery frames on block.
A tradeoff, much like JC's pressure on block with F33 being nerfed, while 21F2's on hit recovery frames were reduced.
that, and a couple of upgrades for D1, D2 and D3.
I'm thinking of going back to Ermac and making his D3 better. Probably will do so for Rain as well, once I get to him.

You have to be very careful in touching his pokes. Even though his normal forward dashes were garbo, he had one of the best walk speeds in the game after start up.

More importantly, even with the bad dashes he's widely regarded as one of the most mobile characters in the game, besides Lao or Kabal.

As it is now, Rep can use his d3 as it's only 1 frame slower than your average d3. Between that, the armor on slide and dash, he could escape pressure

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, if course. Merely that MK9 Rep is a...tricky lizard to balance.

 

[NSR]

Yeah I hear you. Also, the lack of frame data ,not of this site, I mean, after modifying the file, is going to make it hard to balance it properly.
D1 could get a slight improvement though, at the very least.
That may end up, along with the dash changes and possible elbow dash nerf to counteract that as Reptile's only changes.

 

[NSR]

Well, Sektor's F2B1's allow2in1 when set to 00 00 00 01 (in other words, enabled) does...nothing at all! seriously, it doesn't allow me to special cancel the hit.
I have no clue why it doesn't allow me to do that.
As for Reptile, he's pretty much done:
Reptile
D1 is slightly faster.
Dash speed (forward, backwards, into duck, both from forward and backwards dashes) has been increased.
Recovery frames for Non EX Elbow Dash on block have been slightly increased.

His dashes being quicker are the most noticeable change, by far. I didn't alter D1 or Elbow dash that much.
As for Sektor, I'm close to getting him done, but I guess F2B1 being special cancellable is not going to happen. Sorry guys. Maybe I can make up for it by making B21 special cancellable?
Another problem is 12: The reason why it whiffs is not only because the hitbox for the attack is rather small, but also because the opponent slightly moves back when he/she gets hit by 1. The problem lays that if you make it so that the hitbox of 12 will always connect after 1, then you make the hitbox so big, Sektor will be able to hit the opponent out of thin air if 1 whiffs. And since reactions are still impossible/unkown to properly edit (barring a few vars in the tweakvars, like reaction speed to a certain move), 12 will have to whiff at certain distances after 1 connects. I know, it sucks, but hey, otherwise it wouldn't make sense and buff 12 too much.
Also, nevermind B21 being special cancellable, there's no allow2in1 variable for it.

 

[NSR]

Okay, so here are Sektor's changes:
Sektor
12's hitbox has been expanded to make whiffing after connecting with 1 happen less often.
Flame Burner input changed to DB2. (Move list has been updated to show the new input)

6 characters left: Skarlet, Kratos, Raiden, Rain, Scorpion and Liu Kang.
Does anyone have any Raiden suggestions outside of @THTB 's list?

 

[just_2swift]

Vicinity blast a mid.