The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[VSC_Supreme]

I think you and a lot of people in both sides are over thinking the intentions of the initial change.

There is no way they’d did it to make execution difficult, because the commands weren’t actually hard. The only challenge involved is the 5 more minutes it would take to memorize the extra little commands. The stuff was really simple and made sense for the attacks the characters followed up with. It was a game feel thing.


I encourage anyone wondering what this type of input system could feel like to play it in MKX, because there’s actually a character intentionally designed this way:

I never considered myself a Mileena main but this was one of top 5 most played characters throughout MKX’s life since launch, I put hours into playing Ravenous, and it was all because the combos felt so damn SATISFYING to do.

When you put it that way it does make a lot of sense. Admittedly Mileena is one of my least played characters so I didn't take that in consideration.

Maybe the wording on each side of the discussion should be better than, execution barrier is always a heated debate when it comes to competitive games.

 

[deathstroke187]

no execution , well from what we saw even Dizzy droped his combo like 3 times during 2 match during the kombat cast. I saw a lot of combo drops during "high level" footage. it seems people are crying for nothing. The different input for EX moves was retarded and im glad NRS changed it. People like me who will try to play every character in the game are glad right now. Of course character loyalist like brady who never played a execution heavy character in his life is againts it. i mean the guy played subzero,guile and aquaman. dont get me wrong i love the guy but his talking out of his ass

 

[ProudDisciple]

For the most part it seems like most players follow their preferences regarding their own play style.

Regardless of how execution heavy a game is or isn’t, character archetypes and how “execution-heavy” a charcter is created to be, is also a factor.

The amount of time a player chooses to dedicate towards the mastery of their character and/or characters of choice, will be based on their own circumstances and desire to take on the challenges that accompany the character.

I consider myself an average player who due to my circumstances will play a game and learn a character to my fullest extent which is differnt than higher skilled players. It means that I plataeu at below optimal levels. But that is just my reality. I don’t have the ability or time to be optimal and Im fine with that. Players of higher skill levels than myself seem to have a higher standard to where they want to plateau. Extra inputs or not.

Ultimately, I think that players regardless of skill level will invest into a game or character to the extent that they desire and is acceptable to them. Extra inputs or not.

 

[deathstroke187]

the thing is , do you really want to master a hard execution character that is maybe low tier . you will spend most of your game time and the game life span in the training mode instead of learning match ups ? i mean this is progress i played Jax for 2-3 years and realized i really need to work hard for a low tier high risk high reward execution heavy character. i mean did you ever tried his new heavy weapon bnb ? good luck landing that shit online .. keep in mind online is important for the life span of a game and also how casuals see the game or will just ditch the game cause the online is trash.

 

[TackyHaddock]

the idea of multiple meterburn paths I believe was first mentioned by Lord Reo himself. E.g., for a particular special move, there could be 3 or more meterburn options with varying inputs, each resulting in a different animation with its own gameplay properties.

But this is still possible even with the current planned build. Start with just the universal input, and via patches you could layer in alternate meterburn options for the same special move, each with a unique input. Players could decide whether or not they want to implement.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

i have always preferred rather harder inputs in fighting games.

- less scrubs
-better matches
-level up faster
-extra grind for execution is fun <3
-landing harder shit in matches feels satisfying <3

 

[JTC]

I'm pretty neutral on the whole Amplify input change. We're just going to see how the game shapes up as a whole. Tekken for example has lots of universal mechanics. The depth in that game lies upon its core systems such as movement and the vast amount of options provided for each character. Dead or Alive 5/6 is also a really great example. NRS just needs to double down on character depth.

On a side note, NRS WHY DO YOU HATE RAIN?!?!

 

[Juggs]

Just gonna quote Sirlin because I agree completely with what he says about execution.


“I agree completely that the different motions chosen for moves gives another layer of things to think about and that that kind of variety is interesting relative to a game that has no such variety. The thing is, "execution" in general has the opposite effect and it reduces strategy, relatively speaking. The more a game is about the difficulty of making your character do what you want to do, the necessarily less it is about strategy (that is, making good decisions).

This is why it's not a good idea to make special moves really hard to do. Make them take some *time* so some prediction is needed (even a few frames of prediction), yeah that's great. Make them start at a particular place on the joystick, such as a reverse dragon punch, and that affects how they're used, right. But to have some tiny input window to make them hard to do even when you have decided you want to do them, that's taking away emphasis on strategy. Making a game where the command to throw is secretly an option select tricky thing that you want to do basically always is another way to put more weight on dexterity that necessarily reduces strategy. Choosing commands that overlap too much (for example, ST Cammy's hooligan throw and spinning knuckle) puts more emphasis on dexterity than the decision of choosing the right move. So to increase strategy slightly, it's better to make those not overlap.

We should really be striving to reduce execution requirements as much as possible while keeping the nature of the game intact. That is, making all dragon punches a single button press would reduce execution, but it would also actually ruin a bunch of strategy stuff by making them too reactive and not predictive enough, so we shouldn't do that. That's not a case where reducing execution helps, so I'm not talking about things like that. I am talking about sequences or moves that are hard apart from any strategic consideration. Like Sakura having 1-frame links as a critical thing, instead of being a character anyone could play. (You don't even need to change the power level of the character or reduce any strategy here, it's just a matter of being more inclusive as to how many players get to participate in that strategy.)

I know there's a lot of execution fetishism going around, and that's unfortunate for a genre that many would like to point to as a strategy genre that happens to have a dexterity requirement to play. Rasing the dexterity requirement above the minimum needed to make it all work just subtracts from the importance of strategy while excluding people. I'd like to see more love for an inclusive approach, as that restores more power to good decisions while inviting even more players to participate in those decisions.“

http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/blog/2012/7/16/execution-in-fighting-games.html

@General M2Dave @REO @Tom Brady

 

[Rude]

Pretty sure there will be characters in the game that require more execution, they just haven't been shown yet.

Or, fuck it, don't buy the game.

 

[Darth-Nero]

I don't know why Reo keeps giving platform to this toxic clown. Isn't M2D the same guy who cried about NRS taking away his armored launchers in mkx? and then kept calling everyone who disagrees with him a scrub? Yeah gtfo with this garbage.

We keep giving ppl like him platform and front page their posts then wonder why our NRS community have such a terrible reputation.

 

[deathstroke187]

@Juggs i never though i would ever agree with you ever on something

 

[NaCl man]

A whole game shouldn't be dumbed down. I like the idea of a beginner simplified system for easy execution combos to help people first understand the fundamentals of the game. But the option to have plays that require high execution should not be removed. Moment 37 was so amazing because it took great skill and amazing execution and it was done in tournament. In sfv anybody can parry chuns super with ryu so if it happens in that game nobody cares. Why because it takes no skill

 

[CrimsonShadow]

When Dave said he didn't know anything about Anime fighters but thought that hitting a direction and a button to MB was a 'challenging input'

I knew this discussion was futile

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

We these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

The silly thing about constantly posting this is that you cannot SEE the difference between the old and new meter burn. Literally as a spectator, you would have no idea which system was being used if there was a choice to switch between them. None.

It does not add to the gameplay, nor the mechanics of any character. It does not separate good players from bad ones.

So the place where this discussion started (the MB mechanic) actually has nothing at all to do with the principles of high vs. low execution characters in fighting games.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

You're 100% right, so then instead of complaining about the addition of overly complicated specials or enhancements, shouldn't we really be talking about additional complexity in the form of character depth?

Absolutely! But I’m worried and it’s likely we won’t and something like the controls is a minuscule step in the right direction.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Those were great moments. Still, I don't think anyone here is going to argue you can just pick up a character and be amazing at them. It takes time, practice, losses and going against other players to really understand a character and fully adapt their strengths and weaknesses to how you play. But both execution and decision making are critical to FGs. If you can perfectly execute combos, but you don't predict your opponent's movements or anticipate them, you'll still lose.

I will argue that in injustice 2 there were three day old dead shots winning in top 16 and top 8’s of majors

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I walked into this thread ready to argue with you. I saw this and was floored. That was incredible.

Thanks man. I’m trying to be rationale bc this is a huge issue.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I caught that, as well. Knee can most likely play the entire Tekken 7 cast at a very high level.

And infiltration could in sf4. Of course there are outliers but you can’t take 1/thousands and say “semi prove u wrong”

Bo Jackson played base ball and football. What’s wrong with all these athletes playing one sport. Man they suck and complain.

 

[wsj515]

I don't understand why people think making meter burn inputs harder is a good thing. I agree that more execution is a good thing, but it should only be additive and not present at the most basic level of the game.

Good execution barriers that there should be more of are things like run cancels, difficult optimal combos/set ups, instant airs, flawless blocks, etc. These are all things that a casual can play without, but the best players will be able to use these tools at the most optimal times at the highest level. Flawless blocking will be hype because it takes skill, memorizing different inputs that will happen either way is not. Reo touches on this @ 28:00, but comes to the wrong conclusion. DF Liu's run cancels and crazy optimal combos are hype. Shinnok's MKX MB shoulder charge is not magically getting less boring if he had to do a slightly different input.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Let's illustrate the height of the hypocrisy here:

-NRS implements Flawless Block with a 3-frame window, clearly aimed at players who like higher execution and timing requirements -- Cool.
-NRS adds a detailed system of single use Krushing Blows, some of which have very specific requirements -- Cool.
-NRS decides to keep Meter Burn the same as before -- "Omg, execution is dead, NRS catering to casuals"

Huh?

 

[wsj515]

Let's illustrate the height of the hypocrisy here:

-NRS implements Flawless Block with a 3-frame window, clearly aimed at players who like higher execution and timing requirements
-NRS adds a detailed system of single use Krushing Blows, some of which have very specific requirements
-NRS decides to keep Meter Burn the same as before "Omg, execution is dead, NRS catering to casuals"

Huh?

Haven't you heard? Net increase = there was a decrease somewhere, so now we're just playing Divekick.

 

[untitledsix]

This has nothing to do with execution requirements because neither way is difficult. The way they had it was stupid. It's as simple as that.

 

[Lokheit]

I will argue that in injustice 2 there were three day old dead shots winning in top 16 and top 8’s of majors

And how would having to memorize "back, forward, 1 then 2" work against that situation where you're already memorizing every string and every command special except you replace the last input with the universal button. If you can master a character in 3 days, adding a single different button to ex specials won't change those 3 days, maybe add 3 minutes to the process...

This mechanic added nothing, solved nothing, it was just fake, a placebo.

I think it's ridiculous how something that wasn't even related to execution has evolved into discussing that execution is dead.

 

[Badboy Takuma]

i forgot to mention that i dont give a fuck about m2dave and everything he says.

 

[M2Dave]

@Juggs , having more difficult inputs for amplified moves hardly classifies as a "critical thing" that prevents players from participating in certain strategies. Whether or not one frame links should exist as part of a character's bread and butter combo would be a meaningful argument that we could agree or disagree on, but no element that has been observed thus far in Mortal Kombat 11 closely resembles the difficulty of execution that are one frame links. So albeit Sirlin does make great points, none of them are applicable in this case.