The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[Wetdoba]

No. it's not because people deem something too hard that it's actually a tool that will help people learn and get better at a game. Some things are just complete shit. Like how DBF is cancer, they could have used quarter circles instead which are 100x better.

Universal inputs to enhance are fine, IF they would have made the extra inputs, for example, tapping the same face button as the special another time, then sure whatever, but different directional inputs for every move? That is useless.

Go over to a street fighter forumn and tell them dp inputs are cancer because you dont have the execution to do them and let me know how that goes

 

[Rathalos]

From all the changes they have made to MK11 from X. It doesn't seem like they are doing it to make an easier game per say, but a more honest game with less counter picking, character disparity, and crazyness.

A large focus on neutral.
More universal mechanics.
Short hops with a universal overhead.
Auto building meter so some characters like Kabal don't get a clear advantage.
Universal wakeups so certain characters don't get screwed.
Less crazy moves including cancels and stuff like ice clones.
Frame data seems pretty even among the cast so far so some characters aren't just garbage.
Most characters have a weapon to give them range, or if they are up close fighters they have mixups or better pressure.
Everyone seems to have a large number of specials to change their archtype if need be.
No running.
No ridiculous frametraps like KL in MKX so you dont' sit there and block for 20 seconds only to get opened up anyway.
Much shorter combos so you get to play the neutral more.
Everyone gets their x-ray at 30% health.
Everyone's krushing blows do a shit ton of damage.

So far all the changes have taken all the crazyness out of the game and homogenized cast.
I can't say if they did this because they wanted an easier game, or if they got sick and tired of everyone whining about MKX and wanting an honest game with footsies.

In theory the game will be a lot less counter pick heavy because most characters won't be stupid, and their won't be as many 7-3 or 8-2 matchups.

The game will probably be a lot less infuriating to play then X, but people will probably get bored of it quicker.
It's also going to be fucking boring as shit to watch as an esport.

Personally I will probably have a lot more fun playing this game then 9/X, but it's definitely going to be controversial.

 

[Rathalos]

There was a reason to change, accidental MB, EX moves and such, which is why i still don't trust this new one button amplify thing even if they say that its safe now, there is a reason why isn't on the block button anymore.

One of the things that makes me like less its due how i have to change my button layout on stick, and it will feel a bit odd to readjust to, so the extra inputs options allows stick players to keep their layout and not accidentally trigger interactables per say.

From what Dizzy and 16 bit said, you only ever amp a move during it's animation, so there shouldn't ever be a point where you have to choose to amp or interact.
And because you no longer have to do the amp as part of the move, you can just use the interact short cut which is 1+2.
So if you do a DF2 move, you can just hit 1+2 afterwards, almost like you are doing a SF EX move.
In theory, it should work really well for stick users.

 

[Vslayer]

Go over to a street fighter forumn and tell them dp inputs are cancer because you dont have the execution to do them and let me know how that goes

I'm talking about DBF specifically, quarter and half circles are FINE.

 

[Eddy Wang]

From what Dizzy and 16 bit said, you only ever amp a move during it's animation, so there shouldn't ever be a point where you have to choose to amp or interact.
And because you no longer have to do the amp as part of the move, you can just use the interact short cut which is 1+2.
So if you do a DF2 move, you can just hit 1+2 afterwards, almost like you are doing a SF EX move.
In theory, it should work really well for stick users.

Joining buttons its an issue that comes since the arcades, sometimes they fail depending on stick mainteinance and other stuffs like nerves clutch etc, yet i already said i still don't trust it.

There is honestly nothing wrong with wanting some precision.

 

[Vslayer]

What's shit and useless are these arguments. "X is cancer" is not a point that anyone will spend any time to consider

So sorry that my choice of words stripped you of your ability to understand the rest of my post compromised of a wide variety of English words.

 

[Rearawt]

So sorry that my choice of words stripped you of your ability to understand the rest of my post compromised of a wide variety of English words.

It's not your choice of words I have issue with per se, it's the utter lack of any supporting arguments backing them.

 

[Wetdoba]

I'm talking about DBF specifically, quarter and half circles are FINE.

DBF is literally a quarter circle then F+button. If you consider that a legitimate execution barrier you are a scrub

 

[Marlow]

I really liked the idea of having the amplified moves being mapped to different inputs. Done right it could have been a nice intuitive way to amplify moves, and avoid over-mapping buttons. But it sounds like in practice it wasn't working out as well. I assume they were basing this off of feeback from their internal testers, as well as the responses they've been getting from those who got a chance to play during the reveal events. I hope they re-visit this idea in the future, but I'm not too broken up over their decision.

 

[Vslayer]

DBF is literally a quarter circle then F+button. If you consider that a legitimate execution barrier you are a scrub

DBF is counter-intuitive because you change direction quickly as opposes to quarter circles that are one fluid motion. Executing them on stick is much trickier than doing it on a pad.

Calling people scrubs because you don't agree with them, is pretty scrub-like.

 

[Marlow]

DBF is literally a quarter circle then F+button. If you consider that a legitimate execution barrier you are a scrub

I thought the issue was that the NRS system can be a little picky about diagonal inputs, so if you were to a QCB F+Button move the game would read the diagonal and then you'd end up with the wrong move coming out.

 

[Roy Arkon]

As I said in the original thread, both options for the amplified moves have their pros, each in their own way. Yes having every amplified special to have a different command will make the characters more unique, but it doesn't necessarily make the game more exciting in the long run then a game with universal inputs for EX specials. Look at Dragon Ball FighterZ, they have auto combos for every character in the game and yet the game is still fun to play and super hype to watch, because there are a lot of there stuff in it beyond the inputs.

Fighting games are about a lot of things: How good the game looks visually, how good the overall presentation is, how good the soundtrack is, what mind games can be done in a real match at any second and with EVERY MOVE, how good and diverse the roster is, how good and varied the single player content is etc; All of those things need to be taken into account. And there are other things outside the game like how the community acts, how many sales the game gets, NRS/WB can go with either direction and the game can still have the same results regardless.

Also, @REO, it's not like the overall execution went down, as you still have combos and other stuff that might require timing and execution. Also FTR, while the NinjaKilla example is valid, Dragon's Fire Liu Kang is one Variation of one character. And like 16-Bit said, you can make Kabal into a more execution heavy like he was in MK9 thanks to the Kustom Variations, so maybe there will be more characters and Variations in tournament mode that will be hard to play, and will bring things like with what Ninja Killa did with Liu Kang in MKX. You don't need every single char to be execution heavy.

I really think you take things a bit too far. I understand that you have concerns, but I think you took it way out of proportions.

Also, I got a question to you @Tom Brady. I've listened to your previous podcasts and how you praised the idea of the meter being refilled (with your Injustice 2 Clash example), the Krushing Blows and the Fatal Blows, and now you're saying that it all doesn't matter just because the execution is supposedly down (which once again, it's not)? I'm not gonna say you're hater, nor a hypocrite, but I do think it makes you look like a bandwagon-man. And no, I'm not saying this just for the sake of defending MK11, I'm saying this as being objective. Just like you can be objective to not being a yes-man, you can also being objective to not being a bandwagon-man or a no-man. And just because there is no official term for it in the English Language, that doesn't make it any less true.

And one more thing for you, @General M2Dave, I find it pretty funny that you're calling everyone on TYM fools, basically generalizing everyone in TYM and basically committing a sin that is almost as big as what Chris G did, then still posting the full podcast on your won accord on TYM will still generalizing everyone there. Just saying.

 

[Wetdoba]

DBF is counter-intuitive because you change direction quickly as opposes to quarter circles that are one fluid motion. Executing them on stick is much trickier than doing it on a pad.

Calling people scrubs because you don't agree with them, is pretty scrub-like.

It is not counter intuitive at all you just cannot do it, hence you are a scrub. I have been doing this input with zero issues for the last 3 NRS games straight on stick including working the input into options selects such as Ferra Torrs D3 tick OS.

 

[Wetdoba]

I thought the issue was that the NRS system can be a little picky about diagonal inputs, so if you were to a QCB F+Button move the game would read the diagonal and then you'd end up with the wrong move coming out.

The diagonal during the QCB part? The diagonal is part of my input every time with no issues

 

[portent]

I still don't see how this is even an argument anymore. It's not like the most played game in the FGC doesn't use an essentially universal system to "amplify" its special moves.

Street Fighter:
QCF, Punch - Fireball
QCF, 2 Punches - EX Fireball

MK:
BF1 - Spear
BF1, Interact - MB Spear

So we're arguing that to be innovative we need to create difficulty for the sake of yelling from the top of a mountain that "we're hard to play!!!". Plenty of players can perform complicated and difficult combos. Desk is an insane combo artist, but so many of his combos are completely impractical. Where has he placed in tournament?

I think @Slips is right when he says that the flashy stuff should be relatively easy but the real skill is seen in the nuances of the game.

 

[Vslayer]

It is not counter intuitive at all you just cannot do it, hence you are a scrub. I have been doing this input with zero issues for the last 3 NRS games straight on stick including working the input into options selects such as Ferra Torrs D3 tick OS.

I can hit them, doesn't mean I have to like them. I would much rather have quarter or full circle motions.

Because I don't just assume anything about people like you do, do you play on stick or pad?

 

[Wetdoba]

I can hit them, doesn't mean I have to like them. I would much rather have quarter or full circle motions.

Because I don't just assume anything about people like you do, do you play on stick or pad?

I just said stick

 

[Vslayer]

I just said stick

And you like DBF inputs? I guess to each their own. I always feel weird doing them.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

It is not counter intuitive at all you just cannot do it, hence you are a scrub. I have been doing this input with zero issues for the last 3 NRS games straight on stick including working the input into options selects such as Ferra Torrs D3 tick OS.

Ticking off a d3 isn't so bad since it starts where it needs to, however I do find ticking Jason's b1 into dbf to be a bit tricky. bdbf is a lot to input in very short window. That being said, I have no stake in this. I don't mind them being in the game, I just find other characters to use. Sun god Kotal for instance.

Maybe I'll give it a go again some time, but instead of looking at it like bdbf, look at it as kind of a reverse shoryu and forward.

 

[Wetdoba]

And you like DBF inputs? I guess to each their own. I always feel weird doing them.

Yes and they are much more intuitive to me than a full circle because an UP input makes no sense as part of a grab and just a quarter circle is not complex enough. If it were just a quarter circle you could potentially buffer incorrectly leading to accidental grabs in neutral when you are buffering grab but then want to do a poke instead at the last second.

 

[Vslayer]

Ticking off a d3 isn't so bad since it starts where it needs to, however I do find ticking Jason's b1 into dbf to be a bit tricky. bdbf is a lot to input in very short window. That being said, I have no stake in this. I don't mind them being in the game, I just find other characters to use. Sun god Kotal for instance.

Maybe I'll give it a go again some time, but instead of looking at it like bdbf, look at it as kind of a reverse shoryu and forward.

I had no issue with hitting Kotal's grabs, but sub-zero's F2,2,dbf1 in IJ2 felt like trying to solve an algebra equation.

 

[Wetdoba]

Ticking off a d3 isn't so bad since it starts where it needs to, however I do find ticking Jason's b1 into dbf to be a bit tricky. bdbf is a lot to input in very short window. That being said, I have no stake in this. I don't mind them being in the game, I just find other characters to use. Sun god Kotal for instance.

Maybe I'll give it a go again some time, but instead of looking at it like bdbf, look at it as kind of a reverse shoryu and forward.

For D1/D3 ticks you need to start at DF when pressing the poke so that you can roll directly from the poke to the D, DB, and B, then whip forward to F

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Stfu M2Dave when have you ever learned anything beyond the inputs for 2-3 projectiles, dash and throw in any fighting game ever?

When he got an evo medal?

 

[Cobainevermind87]

For D1/D3 ticks you need to start at DF when pressing the poke so that you can roll directly from the poke to the D, DB, and B, then whip forward to F

Yeah I don't really have trouble with those, just back and forward command normals into dbf. Ticking I mean, no issues mid combo when you have time to buffer. My thumb is too slow I think

 

[KiD INsAnitY]

Stfu M2Dave when have you ever learned anything beyond the inputs for 2-3 projectiles, dash and throw in any fighting game ever?

This.