The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[Sutter Pain]

So you guys are saying mk11 is gonna be the NRS version of SFV?

 

[Wetdoba]

Let's illustrate the height of the hypocrisy here:

-NRS implements Flawless Block with a 3-frame window, clearly aimed at players who like higher execution and timing requirements -- Cool.
-NRS adds a detailed system of single use Krushing Blows, some of which have very specific requirements -- Cool.
-NRS decides to keep Meter Burn the same as before -- "Omg, execution is dead, NRS catering to casuals"

Huh?

That last bullet point is not true, it should actually say:

-NRS tries new input system turning mb specials into strings and cleverly getting rid of the need for an extra mb button
- Scrubs that cant remember 3 inputs cry
-NRS trashes new input system before anyone can even try it

If NRS never introduced the new system no one would care as it would be business as usual, but since they did try something new but people shut it down because it was "too dificult" it now begs the question what will be too difficult next?

As of right now:

- doing a raw command grab is too difficult
- memorizing 3 extra inputs is too difficult

I have no doubt on release people will complain about either crushing blow requirements, flawless block timing, or the being too difficult and NRS will make those easier. Maybe people will complain about the different distance special inputs and NRS makes them track again. That is the biggest concern right now, that NRS is already setting the precedent that for this game if you cry about something being too hard NRS will make it easier

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

I appreciate when people are passionate when talking about the game, but the old-new MB system always ends up being a huge sterile debate where people insult each other.
On one side you have people complaining over a system they never tried in-game, and on the other side you have people over dramatising the removal of this new system.
Wanting the old system back doesn't make one a scrub, wanting the new system in MK11 doesn't make one an elitist.

The beta was the good opportunity to try this system out before taking the huge decision to either leave it or reverting it back to the old system for the release of the game.

I wish there was a "Don't know yet, I want to try it in the beta" answer in the poll, because that's what I wanted to answer.

 

[theotherguy]

Surely it just evens the field so it's more about how a person plays and the decisions they make rather than how good they are at pulling off the amplfied versions combos'

-NRS decides to keep Meter Burn the same as before -- "Omg, execution is dead, NRS catering to casuals"

I'm wondering how this would have played out if it was the other way round. At the reveal it was normal 1 button meterburn, but after 2 KK's they say "we decided to change things and add more depth(?) to the amplified moves by changing the buttons".

Would the same pro-different button people be welcoming the change, or would they be on the side of 1 buttoners because of the late change?

-NRS trashes new input system before anyone can even try it

People did try it, all the people at the reveals and it seems some various others. And in the same way that there's a divided opinion here, those that tried it were the same.

 

[ChaosTheory]

Responding to comments, not the audio...

It seems some people are saying they want execution to be more difficult so that the odds of running into a player who can perform them consistently are lower. I don't understand the reasoning, personally.

The MKX example that jumps is Liu Kang. Seems like only a small handful of players can execute with him. But balance-wise he's pretty busted. Are we satisfied with that character because he's difficult to play and your odds of facing him are relatively low?

Honestly why arent you guys talking about the meter system? Thats a bigger deal. Cooldowns like some mobile game lul. That’s the type of mechanic that’ll kill a fg

That's what I'm wondering. I don't see the issue with more players being comfortable with execution. I'm just thinking about balancing elements like the weird meter, etc.

 

[Roy Arkon]

I have no doubt on release people will complain about either crushing blow requirements, flawless block timing, or the being too difficult and NRS will make those easier. Maybe people will complain about the different distance special inputs and NRS makes them track again. That is the biggest concern right now, that NRS is already setting the precedent that for this game if you cry about something being too hard NRS will make it easier

How many times people have cried about stuff, regardless if they are pros or casuals, and NRS haven't done anything? A lot of times. That's because they not only listen, but they know WHEN to listen. I've seen many times right here on TYM alone many complaints and yet NRS, being the smart developers that they are, didn't do anything and have stuck to their guns. For example, NRS purposely didn't patch IJ2 that many times despite all the cries on TYM for balance patches, because they wanted people to play the game and figure stuff out. So now they do change one thing and all of the sudden you think they are gonna change every single thing attached to every cry from anyone who cries at them, regardless if they are a pro or casual? Not gonna happen.

As I said, again, both options have their pros, so changing that one thing doesn't really matter that much. There are a ton of other mechanics and systems that a lot of people didn't had a chance to try just like this one mechanic.

You and everyone else are taking things out of proportions. And just because it doesn't fit your narrative that doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Circus]

Ugh... memorizing an extra input for Amplifying isn't "execution", it's just memorizing an extra input.

A GLORIFIED INPUT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT GLORIFIED ISN'T THE RIGHT ROUTE A DEVELOPER SHOULD MAKE.

I agree that there should always be a specific thing in any fighting game that requires skill to do consistently even if its just character-specific though, but it can't be forced.

For many games it's movement options. (Smash Melee, MvC, DBFZ)
For other games it's characters with hard combos. (SF4, BB, GG)
For other games it's the parry system. (SF3, SC5, Smash Ultimate)

All these things provide that Oooo and aaahhh when you perform it and when you spectate it done well. It's an important aspect to have in a fighting game imo.


Flawless Block seems like that thing in MK11 so I'm not too worried.


Time will tell, but I feel like people are really under selling the Flawless Block mechanic in these arguments.

 

[Wetdoba]

How many times people have cried about stuff, regardless if they are pros or casuals, and NRS haven't done anything? A lot of times. That's because they not only listen, but they know WHEN to listen. I've seen many times right here on TYM alone many complaints and yet NRS, being the smart developers that they are, didn't do anything and have stuck to their guns. For example, NRS purposely didn't patch IJ2 that many times despite all the cries on TYM for balance patches, because they wanted people to play the game and figure stuff out. So now they do change one thing and all of the sudden you think they are gonna change every single thing attached to every cry from anyone who cries at them, regardless if they are a pro or casual? Not gonna happen.

As I said, again, both options have their pros, so changing that one thing doesn't really matter that much. There are a ton of other mechanics and systems that a lot of people didn't had a chance to try just like this one mechanic.

You and everyone else are taking things out of proportions. And just because it doesn't fit your narrative that doesn't make it any less true.

And how many characters have they massacred or over buffed simply because they wanted to see other characters being used on stream? Questionable changes are NRS' entire history (cue Geras intro)

 

[M.D.]

Killer instinct had global powerful mechanics such as breaker, counter breaker, and especially shadow counter. It didn't dumb down the game and it actually made it more balanced.

Having the meter global in this game seems like a bold move but nobody tried it out, as a first glance it seems it might actually balance the game more. This we will have to confirm after we play it.

However, being pro-heavy execution,and especially pro unnecesary heavy execution, is pointless.
Unnecessary heavy execution needs to go ,period.

Case and point:

MK11 comes out, and it has the OFFICIAL following menu option:

INPUT DIFFICULTY:
A. Default specials. The specials in the game will have qcf inputs. On numpad it's 236 inputs.

B. HARDCORE SPECIALS. The specials in the game will have "db uf df ub neutral db d f" inputs. On numpad it's 19375146 input.

Selecting any option will not have any effect on the special frame data or damage whatsoever.



Now pray tell, who and which pro player, or casual player, in their right mind, will ever choose B?

This is the exact case with the thing that started it all, the amplify inputs.

It has literally 0 sense. Given the option, nobody sane will ever chose B. It's counter productive. It will keep you from actually grinding what counts, matchups, and matches with people. You will need to spend hours in training just to put out a special at the end of the string.

This is not skill. Grinding muscle memory separates players yes, but not based on skill but on free time to spend on mindless muscle grinding. This is wrong and it's very obvious that it is wrong.

 

[Roy Arkon]

And how many characters have they massacred or over buffed simply because they wanted to see other characters being used on stream? Questionable changes are NRS' entire history (cue Geras intro)

And how you know that's what they wanted to do? Or that they did it on purpose for that reason alone? Not to mention that NRS games have become more and more balanced over the years. Both MKX and IJ2 are super balanced. Just look at the number of chars you see on stream and in top 8's, if you really wanna go there.

I think the only thing that is really questionable are complaints, every time from one direction or another, on both TYM and other people. That's the people's entire history, by the words of Geras.

Ugh... memorizing an extra input for Amplifying isn't "execution", it's just memorizing an extra input.

A GLORIFIED INPUT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT GLORIFIED ISN'T THE RIGHT ROUTE A DEVELOPER SHOULD MAKE.

I agree that there should always be a specific thing in any fighting game that requires skill to do consistently even if its just character-specific though, but it can't be forced.

For many games it's movement options. (Smash Melee, MvC, DBFZ)
For other games it's characters with hard combos. (SF4, BB, GG)
For other games it's the parry system. (SF3, SC5, Smash Ultimate)

All these things provide that Oooo and aaahhh when you perform it and when you spectate it done well. It's an important aspect to have in a fighting game imo.


Flawless Block seems like that thing in MK11 so I'm not too worried.


Time will tell, but I feel like people are really under selling the Flawless Block mechanic in these arguments.

^All of this. Only very few times people are talking about the Flawless Block, and nothing can be put in the gameplay of a game for the sake of having it.

 

[Son ov Timett]

Majority of the player base is in it for the short haul. Wam bam thank you ma'am for a few months until the next AAA title drops. Whether the change in inputs added artificial depth is moot in my mind. It would have created an additional barrier to willy nilly 10 min lab counterpicks. It also may have lent to more enjoyable combos. (Now we'll never know.)

We're living in the day of instant gratification gaming. Hell the only enjoyment I got from MKX was practicing lightning run cancels. Tried Kang's cancels, and they were hard af, and deterred me from the character. Nevertheless taking him in the lab for an hour to attempt said cancels was a fun, albeit frustrating experience. Thus far Baraka, Cage, Kabal, Jade, et al. have all been described as easy execution simplified characters. That would be fine if there were characters to juxtapose said simplicity. None have yet to be described as difficult. Lab rats need something to get their jollies off.

 

[Wetdoba]

Killer instinct had global powerful mechanics such as breaker, counter breaker, and especially shadow counter. It didn't dumb down the game and it actually made it more balanced.

Having the meter global in this game seems like a bold move but nobody tried it out, as a first glance it seems it might actually balance the game more. This we will have to confirm after we play it.

However, being pro-heavy execution,and especially pro unnecesary heavy execution, is pointless.
Unnecessary heavy execution needs to go ,period.

Case and point:

MK11 comes out, and it has the OFFICIAL following menu option:

INPUT DIFFICULTY:
A. Default specials. The specials in the game will have qcf inputs. On numpad it's 236 inputs.

B. HARDCORE SPECIALS. The specials in the game will have "db uf df ub neutral db d f" inputs. On numpad it's 19375146 input.

Selecting any option will not have any effect on the special frame data or damage whatsoever.



Now pray tell, who and which pro player, or casual player, in their right mind, will ever choose B?

This is the exact case with the thing that started it all, the amplify inputs.

It has literally 0 sense. Given the option, nobody sane will ever chose B. It's counter productive. It will keep you from actually grinding what counts, matchups, and matches with people. You will need to spend hours in training just to put out a special at the end of the string.

This is not skill. Grinding muscle memory separates players yes, but not based on skill but on free time to spend on mindless muscle grinding. This is wrong and it's very obvious that it is wrong.

Your strawman comparison is what makes no sense. There is no added execution. Nothing is 10 inputs to mb. It was 1 direction and 1 button at the most and they all corresponded to the type of move they were hitting you with (FP, BP, FK, BK, or throw). It is zero added execution, it was simply making the execution for specials match the execution for strings. Nrs games already have the easiest execution of all so excuse me for laughing when people actually think this is an execution barrier or for thinking that 4 inputs "keep you from actually grinding what counts" as if you are legitimately scared that you would have had to grind the execution on mb specials

 

[MagicMan357]

So once again im trying to understand if this is true then why is KOF not as big as it should be? Could it be that it has nothing to do with "high" execution but its actually the community that refuses to lab games out until the nest one comes? Remember when you idiots said mk9 had no footsies or AA?

What you guys really want is Street fighter just admit it.

The fact that you can only name run cancels in mkx proves it

 

[Corruption100]

This argument really seems like "back in my day" type complaints. Things were harder for the OGs so now they hate the idea of lowering the entry level skill needed to play. Imo universal inputs dont mean shit if you cant execute a strategy under pressure. I dont think the game will be inherently easy. Seems like they just want you to focus on strategy, neutral execution, etc. Im not a pro player though so i could be wrong.

 

[Roy Arkon]

So once again im trying to understand if this is true then why is KOF not as big as it should be? Could it be that it has nothing to do with "high" execution but its actually the community that refuses to lab games out until the nest one comes? Remember when you idiots said mk9 had no footsies or AA?

What you guys really want is Street fighter just admit it.

The fact that you can only name run cancels in mkx proves it

Indeed, through a lot of complaints in this argument and may others before, I can clearly see that people want this game to turn into an alternative version of SF, even if it's just for the sake of pleasing the SF community and others as well, as if that's what gonna make the scene grow, and that's not true at all. Every game needs to have it's own identity, and just because NRS/WB are now focusing the games more and more into E-Sports ever since MK9 that doesn't change that fact. If all you want is just getting the praises of the SF community, go and play SF instead.

 

[MadPropz101]

NRS can assign one button special moves, combos, fatalities, etc. for casual gamers (i.e., all the people who voted "yes" in the poll). For this reason, I am arguing for a "tournament" or "competitive" mode with traditional or more involved inputs.

Stop lmao

 

[M.D.]

Your strawman comparison is what makes no sense. There is no added execution. Nothing is 10 inputs to mb. It was 1 direction and 1 button at the most and they all corresponded to the type of move they were hitting you with (FP, BP, FK, BK, or throw). It is zero added execution, it was simply making the execution for specials match the execution for strings. Nrs games already have the easiest execution of all so excuse me for laughing when people actually think this is an execution barrier or for thinking that 4 inputs "keep you from actually grinding what counts" as if you are legitimately scared that you would have had to grind the execution on mb specials

Why would I have to grind it? It makes no sense either way. If it's zero added, why is it there?

Up 3 looks to you like a normal follow up for a special that has back forward inputs? LoL.

 

[Wetdoba]

Why would I have to grind it? It makes no sense either way. If it's zero added, why is it there?

Up 3 looks to you like a normal follow up for a special that has back forward inputs? LoL.

You are the one that said mb inputs would require grinding not me.

And is this the input for Raidens amplified staff push that launches you? Because yes that input does make sense. BF for the push and Up for the hit that hits you up. Subs amplified slide is a throw to mb because he throws you. Baraka chop chop you mash the same button because Baraka keeps stabbing you. Not complicated

 

[ForeverKing]

This podcast had some really good points but above all else it was hilarious, especially Tom had me laughing

 

[Son ov Timett]

I legit could listen to Brady/Reo all fn day. Sincerely hope this podcast has some legs and goes well into the game's life.

 

[Marlow]

I legit could listen to Brady/Reo all fn day. Sincerely hope this podcast has some legs and goes well into the game's life.

I usually enjoy hearing Reo's take on these things. Not so much Tom or Dave's though.

 

[TheJaquio]

In the same way that people are saying that an extra button press like pressing f1 to amplify a special wouldn't make the game's inputs any harder and that casuals shouldn't complain about it, leaving in that system also wouldn't make the game any more notably execution heavy for competitive hype then. It's a self-defeating argument, because it admits that there is no significant impact either way.

 

[M.D.]

In the same way that people are saying that an extra button press like pressing f1 to amplify a special wouldn't make the game's inputs any harder and that casuals shouldn't complain about it, leaving in that system also wouldn't make the game any more notably execution heavy for competitive hype then. It's a self-defeating argument, because it admits that there is no significant impact either way.

FINALLY give this man a prize

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

The input thing is not the talking point, rather, it’s more lack of depth. We are all afraid bc 16 keeps saying these characters are easy to play. We do not want another deadshot or aqua man situation. If this input thing is all we have to compete the paper rock scissors/ppl using 5 characters then so be it.

I’ll keep saying it. Execution adds depth to a game. No character should be top tier and super easy to learn. No respected fighting game had top tiers that were deadshot easy and the relative games top players having a roster of 3 to 5 top tiers that cover almost every matchup.

Game needs more depth. Better ways to do it then this new amplify feature. Perfect guard and lethal hits are good additions. NRS should keep borrowing from other games. Technically interactables add depth, I stil dont care for that mechanic.

It just seems tacked on, but they couldve let it rock in the beta to experiment. At the very least you could make only some characters have to do an intricate mb special input to raise the barrier. You know, to” balance” mb moves instead of changing meter for everyone.

Honestly why arent you guys talking about the meter system? Thats a bigger deal. Cooldowns like some mobile game lul. That’s the type of mechanic that’ll kill a fg

Ya u bring up a good point with the meter. Have not put too much thought on it.

 

[deathblooms2k4]

It seems people advocating higher execution predicate their arguments with the notion of a fear for lack of depth. While this is a legitimate concern it seems people are taking leaps in that assumption where there is no objective evidence to substantiate such fears.

Again the elitist notion of casuals need to suck it up and deserve to get bodied for not labbing muscle memory contradicts itself. You think you're elite because you spent time brainlessly grinding muscle memory in the lab, but you're obviously not elite since you don't recognize how trivial that aspect of play is at the top level. You don't go in playing top players crossing your fingers hoping they are going to have worse execution and muscle memory. No. At the top level you expect your opponents character is going to do what they want their character to do and instead the match is going to be dictated on decisions you each make.

Killer instinct has an auto-combo option. You legit turn it on and you can mash one button and do full combos. Now you'd think maybe at the surface level such a thing would be game ruining, oh my god anyone can do combos with zero effort! But in reality it has minimal impact on the gameplay at any level beyond new. It limits your options, it doesn't help neutral at all, it has no bearing on defense. It simply makes it so that when some kid who has never touched a fighting game before picks up a controller for they first time they can do something neat looking as opposed to throwing out random jabs. I think this is the goal of NRS. They want their games to be accessible and fun for everyone.

Now you might say this is exactly brady's point that they are making the game easier to play for casuals. But what's the consequence there? And where's the proof? Is the game so easy that top level players are going to get bodied by casuals in tournament? Is this skill disparity going to be so inconsequential that top players like fox are suddenly going to be come less consistent at placing in the top 8?

Or is it the fear that the game will have a short life? There's no evidence to suggest that and the reality is, WB/NRS have a pretty steady release cycle for their games and I've yet to see any NRS game survive the most recent release. So if that's your concern it's a rather moot point.

This notion that NRS doesn't give a shit about what pro's want will serve as a nice option select when certain individuals don't perform as well as they once did when online was ass and competitive player base was a fraction of it's current size.