The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[Juggs]

I just don’t understand why people are acting like this is the end of competitive MK as we know it. Just relax guys, everything will be okay. Meditate or something.

 

[MKF30]

Just want to say first off That thumb is a bit misleading, the NES controller paved the way for pretty much all controllers in gaming now albeit with a few buttons added but same otherwise. I know, I know it's the picture trying to explain what the video is about but still. Anyway, It was simply logical to keep the ex, amplified etc moves simple with one button. "If it's not broke, don't fix it" comes to mind here. I personally don't believe that the way it was would be better and the game's execution would still be there for other elements the game offers.

A game being more difficult isn't really a good thing when you want to reach out to the general audience besides the hardcore audience, besides we have to remember the casuals vastly outnumber the hardcore players be it tourney, online competitive people or otherwise. NRS have stressed several times that they want their games to be accessible and even Capcom does this. You want MK to be like a lot of games "Easy to play, hard to master" not so much "Hard to pick up, not fun to play at all"

This topic reminds me of the other topic with people concerned with "omg no longer combos anymore, the game will lack depth and flash" this doesn't mean the game won't be good, competitive and fun.

 

[gitblame]

I just don't get it why Tom is poitning new wakuep system as simplifying game and making it more towards casual audience. From where I see it, MK11 wakeup system is far more complex and will require more learning than wakeup system from any other games they made.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Also I completely forgot to mention that since we are on the topic of MK11 mechanics, there is also the short hop mechanic that NRS/WB are adapting from Smash games, that is a mechanic that is also not being talked about enough like the Flawless Block. Granted, I myself only now remembered to mention this mechanic, but the point is we have this mechanic as well. So who knows how much depth that can also add to MK11 in addition to the Flawless Block, Krushing Blows, cool-down meter system etc;, and that proves even further that there is nothing to worry about regarding the inputs for amplified specials.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Ugh... memorizing an extra input for Amplifying isn't "execution", it's just memorizing an extra input.

A GLORIFIED INPUT JUST FOR THE SAKE OF HAVING IT GLORIFIED ISN'T THE RIGHT ROUTE A DEVELOPER SHOULD MAKE.

I agree that there should always be a specific thing in any fighting game that requires skill to do consistently even if its just character-specific though, but it can't be forced.

For many games it's movement options. (Smash Melee, MvC, DBFZ)
For other games it's characters with hard combos. (SF4, BB, GG)
For other games it's the parry system. (SF3, SC5, Smash Ultimate)

All these things provide that Oooo and aaahhh when you perform it and when you spectate it done well. It's an important aspect to have in a fighting game imo.


Flawless Block seems like that thing in MK11 so I'm not too worried.


Time will tell, but I feel like people are really under selling the Flawless Block mechanic in these arguments.

Quoted 5 times over. Anything that doesn't actually change the gameplay itself doesn't truly add either depth or spectator value. And pressing a different button to MB takes no execution at all.

Here are examples of MB mechanics that would actually change the gameplay itself:

• Requiring very tight time windows to MB that are different per attack, such that it becomes like a link
• Or giving some sort of bonus or enhancement if a MB is perfectly timed (similar to flawless block)
• Or requiring MBs to be confirmed situationally rather than mashed
• Having different MB options per single special that you can use per situation
• etc.

 

[Cobainevermind87]

I just don't get it why Tom is poitning new wakuep system as simplifying game and making it more towards casual audience. From where I see it, MK11 wakeup system is far more complex and will require more learning than wakeup system from any other games they made.

I feel like they did it to make the wakeup game more fair. There are a good bit of characters in MKX, in my opinion, who can REALLY get away with waking up totally naked (meterlessly) due to crazy fast startups on certain specials. It's kinda bullshit that they still have to be respected on knockdown when they have no resources. Oddly enough, most of those characters that come to mind also tend to build more meter than most of the cast. Thankfully, NRS also took care of that with the regenerating meter.

 

[Marlow]

I thought they changed the wakeup to be a universal input, but not neccessarily universal in terms of strength?

 

[Ram]

I thought they changed the wakeup to be a universal input, but not neccessarily universal in terms of strength?

Depends on your definition of strength. One wakeup may have a short range with 360degree hitbox, versus another one with good horizontal range only, but both are single-hitting with invincibility (as an example)

 

[Kroaken]

I thought the new (now old?) system sounded fun, if nothing else. Never much liked pushing block to meterburn. But I recognize that I'm in the minority, here. Not worth arguing over.

 

[Juggs]

The funny thing is I had no problem with the previous inputs. Didn’t complain once. I actually didn’t see anyone really complaining that weren’t known players. So essentially, the only people I saw complaining were actual tournament players. Then again, I wasn’t looking for it, it didn’t really matter to me personally since I have no executional problems.

My issue is when they changed it back, all this misinformation about “killing execution” really rubbed me the wrong way. Memorizing a button input for a move isn’t execution, it’s dexterity/memorization.

Like I completely understand @Tom Brady reservations. But it’s not really a “precedent” when NRS has done this before, imo. Also, I think NRS is smart enough to make decisions themselves based on feedback. Meaning, if a bunch of people are complaining about something, they take that feedback, discuss it, then make a decision in house for the betterment of the game and community. I think NRS has come a long way and their internal testing and the personnel is good enough for us not to worry all that much. That doesn’t mean they’re devoid of criticism. It just feels like people are unnecessarily panicking.

 

[Rude]

Didn't The Terry Bros play nearly the whole cast of every NRS fighter they took seriously?

The point: If a tournament player wants a team for a competitive edge, inputs aren't going to stop them. They want to win.

Also, I imagine perfect block will require execution and time to master so there's clearly a higher skill-ceiling for top play.

 

[Xelz]

First of all, huge props to these guys, especially Tom Brady and REO. Their guides and posts helped get me hooked on MK9. Giving respect where it’s due.

I just need to point out the irony of Tekken mentioned in the cast as the example of a deep fighting game.... which also has universal wake ups

On the whole, I agree that NRS games could benefit from more depth, and a game that's easy to learn could still be hard to master without sacrificing casuals. Per Tekken, a universal wake up system doesn’t necessarily kill depth, though I did enjoy learning how to counter character specific wake ups in other NRS titles.

 

[Marinjuana]

I like how they addressed that a surprising amount of people in this community seem to think execution is just this unnecessary barrier keeping players from what the game is supposed to be about

 

[Marlow]

On the whole, I agree that NRS games could benefit from more depth, and a game that's easy to learn could still be hard to master without sacrificing casuals.

I actually think NRS games have decent depth, or at least the potential for decent depth. I feel like one of the things that has hurt the games from a depth standpoint is that with releasing a new game every 2 years most players seem to only invest in a game for the short term.

 

[lionheart21]

I voted yes, mainly just due to the fact that there was no Neutral option and because I'm more accustomed to the current system. I'm more focused on how they're gonna implement the Flawless Block rather than whether or not they're gonna add additional inputs for meter-burning specials since that's what truly seems like it'll be the true separator between the skilled and the so-called "casuals" and "noobs".

Also, remember that the change happened a week after people started complaining about the new system. It hasn't even been a week yet since the change was reverted, and we're also a few weeks out from release. For all we know, they'll be implementing an option for either system, which I hope they decide to do.

 

[Xelz]

I actually think NRS games have decent depth, or at least the potential for decent depth. I feel like one of the things that has hurt the games from a depth standpoint is that with releasing a new game every 2 years most players seem to only invest in a game for the short term.

Completely agree. Hopefully my post didn't come across as though I thought NRS games have been shallow - far from it. Just that there's room for NRS to add even more depth without sacrificing accessibility for new players.

 

[VSC_Supreme]

Execution barrier argument aside, I think my biggest gripe with the podcast was Tom's mention that we hated MKX and went back to it because Inj2 sucked.

The final patch on MKXL was great and made the game much more enjoyable, but wasn't touched as much because Inj2 was on the horizon. Also MK is MK, its staying power really is that much greater.

 

[Lokheit]

I've mentioned this before in other threads but it's good here too:

The Smash series have such easy and universal buttons that it makes MK buttons look hardcore.

Literally all characters have the same controls: Up/neutral/forward/down tilts, up/forward/fown smashes, up/neutral/forward/backwards/down air and up/neutral/forward/down special moves plus grabs/shield/jump, and that's it. That's all your buttons for every single character.

Yet the smash series has always been considered one of the most skill demanding fighting series, way above mortal kombat games, and at the same time very easy to start playing because of the simplified base controls (which makes it a great party game and a great competitive game).

Easy to play, hard to master, is something great to say about any videogame of any genre.

A game is not more complex or skill demanding because of a move requiring more directional inputs than needed (dbf) or because you change an universal input with random buttons (the case we're talking about) but because of how it's played and the core mechanics.

Flawless block is AWESOME in this department, a lot of potential for jedi plays and hype moments no NRS had before.

The new meter system is AWESOME, now rather than certain playstyles being rewarded more than others we're getting into great depths of micro managing resources we haven't seen before with less max resources but constant and equal recovery over time.

Single use krushing blows are great as they add more strategy and resources management depending on how useful they're going to be each round.

Fatal blows are great, now we get to see X-Rays outside of infinite meter 4 Frames OH Kitana as everyone gets them without hampering their resources and with another layer of strategy and mind games.

This game is going to be great for competitive players, stop acting like not having weird buttons where they're not needed is the end of execution, MK11 is already the most promising thing NRS ever developed in terms of depth in a fighting game and it's not even out yet.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

@General M2Dave
@Tom Brady

I honestly believe the MeterBurn input for Amplify is fine and shouldn't remove complexity or depth from the game. "If it's not broke don't fix it"
But I agree that things like additional inputs should be added to add depth. I would love the option for high execution to be there.
I just don't feel Amplify button is where the focus for that should be placed. Even though it's now how it always has been(R1/R2) we can still ask NRS to add extensions to strings and specials. Just because they removed unique amplify doesn't mean they can't or won't add extenders like Ravenous Mileena from MKX.

But I'll be devil's advocate and agree that it's a great idea as long as casuals get the option for simplicity and pro's get high execution Option maybe in the form of OS like you all mentioned.

 

[Xelz]

I've mentioned this before in other threads but it's good here too:

The Smash series have such easy and universal buttons that it makes MK buttons look hardcore.

Literally all characters have the same controls: Up/neutral/forward/down tilts, up/forward/fown smashes, up/neutral/forward/backwards/down air and up/neutral/forward/down special moves plus grabs/shield/jump, and that's it. That's all your buttons for every single character.

Yet the smash series has always been considered one of the most skill demanding fighting series, way above mortal kombat games, and at the same time very easy to start playing because of the simplified base controls (which makes it a great party game and a great competitive game).

Easy to play, hard to master, is something great to say about any videogame of any genre.

A game is not more complex or skill demanding because of a move requiring more directional inputs than needed (dbf) or because you change an universal input with random buttons (the case we're talking about) but because of how it's played and the core mechanics.

Flawless block is AWESOME in this department, a lot of potential for jedi plays and hype moments no NRS had before.

The new meter system is AWESOME, now rather than certain playstyles being rewarded more than others we're getting into great depths of micro managing resources we haven't seen before with less max resources but constant and equal recovery over time.

Single use krushing blows are great as they add more strategy and resources management depending on how useful they're going to be each round.

Fatal blows are great, now we get to see X-Rays outside of infinite meter 4 Frames OH Kitana as everyone gets them without hampering their resources and with another layer of strategy and mind games.

This game is going to be great for competitive players, stop acting like not having weird buttons where they're not needed is the end of execution, MK11 is already the most promising thing NRS ever developed in terms of depth in a fighting game and it's not even out yet.

This. So this.

 

[wsj515]

Where do you draw that line though, because it seems completely arbitrary already. Strings having the inputs they do is fine and good, but specials that have inputs like strings are purposeless and shallow and should be removed. Why?

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, what specials have inputs like strings? Stances? Or do you mean the alternative/varying meter burn inputs.

 

[spidey300]

I want systems that add actual strategic depth to the game. literally the only thing the old system did was confuse casual players

fuck them casual players. all they need is features and content to hold them over

 

[spidey300]

these casuals not even trying to learn shit but some of y'all just roll over and let them do this because they're buying the game. they were always gonna buy the game. stop letting them get away with what they want

 

[Baconlord]

fuck them casual players. all they need is features and content to hold them over

every single person on this site was at one point a casual. if you want to grow a community you embrace them and show them why the should take the game more seriously and be a part of the community. and there is a big difference between making a system easier and making a system more intuitive. hitting an extra command to ex a move doesn't add anything to a competitive player because it functions the exact same way as just the 1 button command. so why not use this as an opportunity to streamline a system to make it more intuitive without sacrificing depth for the competitive community.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I just wanna say I totally agree with @Tom Brady and @General M2Dave and everyone, and I wish they hadn't abandoned the concept of unique amplify inputs. I was looking forward to trying it.