The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[Vslayer]

Yes and they are much more intuitive to me than a full circle because an UP input makes no sense as part of a grab and just a quarter circle is not complex enough. If it were just a quarter circle you could potentially buffer incorrectly leading to accidental grabs in neutral when you are buffering grab but then want to do a poke instead at the last second.

Yeah, that's a good point. I know a lot of grab inputs in DOA6 require a half circle and to me at least those are easier than trying to chain DBF into combos.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

Would these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I still don't see how this is even an argument anymore. It's not like the most played game in the FGC doesn't use an essentially universal system to "amplify" its special moves.

Street Fighter:
QCF, Punch - Fireball
QCF, 2 Punches - EX Fireball

MK:
BF1 - Spear
BF1, Interact - MB Spear

So we're arguing that to be innovative we need to create difficulty for the sake of yelling from the top of a mountain that "we're hard to play!!!". Plenty of players can perform complicated and difficult combos. Desk is an insane combo artist, but so many of his combos are completely impractical. Where has he placed in tournament?

I think @Slips is right when he says that the flashy stuff should be relatively easy but the real skill is seen in the nuances of the game.

It’s really not a big deal and you are right. But. It was something to combat the probability of i2 repeating itself. Three day dead shots may not have existed and won in top 8’s/16’s if there was another layer of complexity.

As long as the designers actually make deep characters then stupid control changes like this wouldn’t matter.

 

[KingHippo]

God "millennials" lmao well this thread just got extra dumb

 

[portent]

It’s really not a big deal and you are right. But. It was something to combat the probability of i2 repeating itself. Three day dead shots may not have existed and won in top 8’s/16’s if there was another layer of complexity.

As long as the designers actually make deep characters then stupid control changes like this wouldn’t matter.

You're 100% right, so then instead of complaining about the addition of overly complicated specials or enhancements, shouldn't we really be talking about additional complexity in the form of character depth?

 

[portent]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

We these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

By the way, I agree again here. I said it in the other thread as well that I firmly believe that there is a nearly equal balance in terms of importance between decision making and execution.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

We these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

It's not that execution doesn't matter, it's that there are a ton of other things in a fighting game that matter alongside execution. The issue here is that people are taking it out of proportions and some even making it the be-all, end-all of MK11. Look at @Tom Brady, at least from what I'm understanding, he makes it as all other things in MK11 won't matter in the long run just because the execution of one mechanic has been toned down, and as if the overall execution of the whole game toned down because of this alone, which is not true. We don't have the game yet, how can you make assumptions like that? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, yes, you should invest time in your character, but just because execution is easier that doesn't take the depth of the game or the time needed to figure it out. Back in MKX and IJ2, I've managed to find A HUGE TON of stuff with my characters, and a ton of it didn't come out due to execution, but for timing, outside-of-the-box thinking and other things. I'm playing Noxious Reptile in MKX, which is the most accessible Variation of Reptile in MKX, and I've manage to find some crazy setups and techs and combos with him, all because of the time I've invested in him. In fact, I will go on and say that I've managed to find the time and energy to find all of that stuff because the execution of Noxious Reptile is low, at least to an extent.

It’s really not a big deal and you are right. But. It was something to combat the probability of i2 repeating itself. Three day dead shots may not have existed and won in top 8’s/16’s if there was another layer of complexity.

As long as the designers actually make deep characters then stupid control changes like this wouldn’t matter.

That statement is completely out of place. IJ2 is build as a Zoning-mainly game, so even if that game had different inputs for the MB specials, including the projectiles and long ranged specials, the game would still turn out to be what it turned out to be, because the overall concept of it would've been the same.

 

[Vslayer]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

We these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

Those were great moments. Still, I don't think anyone here is going to argue you can just pick up a character and be amazing at them. It takes time, practice, losses and going against other players to really understand a character and fully adapt their strengths and weaknesses to how you play. But both execution and decision making are critical to FGs. If you can perfectly execute combos, but you don't predict your opponent's movements or anticipate them, you'll still lose.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Those were great moments. Still, I don't think anyone here is going to argue you can just pick up a character and be amazing at them. It takes time, practice, losses and going against other players to really understand a character and fully adapt their strengths and weaknesses to how you play. But both execution and decision making are critical to FGs. If you can perfectly execute combos, but you don't predict your opponent's movements or anticipate them, you'll still lose.

^This. 110% True.

 

[Marlow]

Wasn't Deadshot more of a balance issue than an execution issue? His special moves were basically the same to execute as any other characters'.

 

[Bloodfang]

Wasn't Deadshot more of a balance issue than an execution issue? His special moves were basically the same to execute as any other characters'.

^This. I don't feel like Deadshots or hell Deathstroke in INJ1 was an execution issue as a balance issue of not enough characters with sufficient tools to get around it. Erron Black and Jacqui could spam gun shots all day but more characters had tools to get around it so the spam was only problematic against inexperienced or unskilled players.

 

[Marlow]

^This. I don't feel like Deadshots or hell Deathstroke in INJ1 was an execution issue as a balance issue of not enough characters with sufficient tools to get around it. Erron Black and Jacqui could spam gun shots all day but more characters had tools to get around it so the spam was only problematic against inexperienced or unskilled players.

I always wonder how much is also just the day 1 effect of a game, where certain characters seem really powerful day 1 or early in the games life, maybe due to a simple to execture gameplan or powerful special move that's obvious to use, but then people learn how to actually fight them, so things start to balance out naturally.

 

[JBeezYBabY]

From reading this thread Ive learned that most of y'all need to get out the damn house more. GOOD LORD!

 

[deathblooms2k4]

Ah the age old discussion of the execution curve in game play. Jokers on both sides. You've got the "protect muh skill gap" elitist on one side. Who think training muscle memory is some novel idea that separates the men from the boys. News flash there's nothing that makes you special for training muscle memory it's a linear path of time spent. You can spend all the time in the world in the lab training high execution combos and then go 0-13 in a match against someone who understands the mind games involved in fighting games mixing you up and destroying you in neutral. And then you got the "casuals" on the other side who don't understand that their longevity of enjoyment is based on the input and reward dichotomy of the learning curve.

For me the balance is in the middle. I mostly like universal inputs especially if what they are covering is some arbitrary element that was just complicated for the sake of being complicated. I think the fear is that the term universal somehow correlates with characters all playing the same and people want their characters to have their own identity. This is a legitimate concern and there are games where characters are very samey. But at the end of the day what separates fighting games apart from other genre's is it's 1 on 1 your mind versus someone elses. Stands to reason arbitrary barriers added in execution hinder the potential to reach the mind game element that makes the genre so enjoyable.

Is the execution arbitrarily difficult? Or is the difficulty the cost of creating something unique to the character or the game. Nobody seems to care that every character uppercuts, sweeps, throws and blocks with the same buttons. Or that half circle inputs are largely gone from the genre. Where do you draw the line?

One final note on the elitists here. If you really think requiring tons of time labbing complicated timing and inputs is what should separate players from each other. You're really cheating yourself by using a small fraction of your brain, conditioning muscle memory is a trivial skill predicated mostly on time spent not intelligence.

 

[methademic]

Has Tom even played the damn game yet? How can you judge the execution of a game you have only seen through second hand media? Especially when the game isn't even finalized.

 

[Ram]

(1) Originally, I didn't think remapping the amplify input to "meter burn" button was a big deal, but REO's example of amplifying a move in different ways based on different inputs is intriguing...I hope that this is still somehow implemented into the game

(2) I also originally liked the idea of universal wakeup options. But as I think about it more, you kind of lose some character uniqueness. For example, Shazam in Injustice 1 was all about oki and knockdowns, either his or yours. When he got knocked down, his invincible teleport wakeup got him out of 99% of oki situations. And when he knocked you down, you better guess right between his command grabs and OH/low mixups (and god help you if your wakeup game was ass). It doesn't seem like a Shazam-like character could really exist in MK11, but I hope NRS proves me wrong once the game is released <3

 

[deathblooms2k4]

(1) Originally, I didn't think remapping the amplify input to "meter burn" button was a big deal, but REO's example of amplifying a move in different ways based on different inputs is intriguing...I hope that this is still somehow implemented into the game

(2) I also originally liked the idea of universal wakeup options. But as I think about it more, you kind of lose some character uniqueness. For example, Shazam in Injustice 1 was all about oki and knockdowns, either his or yours. When he got knocked down, his invincible teleport wakeup got him out of 99% of oki situations. And when he knocked you down, you better guess right between his command grabs and OH/low mixups (and god help you if your wakeup game was ass). It doesn't seem like a Shazam-like character could really exist in MK11, but I hope NRS proves me wrong once the game is released <3

I'd be surprised if everyone had equal options on these. Just based on NRS's track records where some characters can duck projectiles others can't, or some characters uppercuts are good anti airs and others are not. Somewhat of an over simplification but the act of pressing down to duck can be considered by definition as a universal input and historically the ducking properties have varied between NRS characters so it would really surprise me if all characters wakeup options were equal.

 

[M.D.]

Evo moment 37 was 15 years ago, get over it. Things have evolved and now nobody cares about the combo, just the neutral.

Re-watch the evo finals. Everyone cheers at the punishes, reads, traps, mindgames, not the poetry combo the players learned at home.

Umvc3 is the perfect example. Someone comes with zero full team combos and doom infinites.
Nobody cares. They just care about the first hit, then "ok he's gonna do the combo big deal can we move on already?"

Things have evolved, doing a combo is taken for granted for a pro player, nobody cheers when he actually does it because it's already expected. Stop living in the past.

Things will get "decent" in inputs without idiotic 1 frame links, 17 directions for a grab or random spacing micro dashes and all that crap. Nobody has time for that as it's preventing them to peak as a mindset in the game.

I love all the ex-elitists worrying they will be bodied by a random kid with better reads and brain than them because they don't have to grind months to learn a character. It's time to evolve or go back in the gutter, tough life.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

There is a reason why only skilled manually players are able to pull Red Parry in SFIII

I don't give a damn about enhanced one button move. I can't imagine most cast, being as easy, as Black Adam in I2.

Amen.

 

[Marlow]

(1) Originally, I didn't think remapping the amplify input to "meter burn" button was a big deal, but REO's example of amplifying a move in different ways based on different inputs is intriguing...I hope that this is still somehow implemented into the game

(2) I also originally liked the idea of universal wakeup options. But as I think about it more, you kind of lose some character uniqueness. For example, Shazam in Injustice 1 was all about oki and knockdowns, either his or yours. When he got knocked down, his invincible teleport wakeup got him out of 99% of oki situations. And when he knocked you down, you better guess right between his command grabs and OH/low mixups (and god help you if your wakeup game was ass). It doesn't seem like a Shazam-like character could really exist in MK11, but I hope NRS proves me wrong once the game is released <3

I thought 16 bit mentioned in the commentary with UltraDavid during The Reveal event that while the wakeup would have a universal input, the strength of each character's wakeup would be different.

 

[VSC_Supreme]

I think this argument is a little ridiculous on the amplified meter inputs and inputs in general for MK. Wasn't all the weird inputs in the original MK the result of making executing moves easier?

Amplified moves have been the same for the last 8 years, why change something for the sake of changing it? Switching it back to 1 button won't change the players will who will dominate in this regardless.

If we're gonna talk execution barrier the discussion should be on IAFBs and the new flawless block system.

Edit: I think REO's idea for simplified amplified would have been the best take I think.

 

[Ares_Supreme]

Man the amount of “execution shouldn’t matter it’s about decision making” really blows my mind.

We these moments have existed if execution didn’t matter?

Yes it should matter. Yes you should have to invest months in a character. All the millennials in this thread want things quick and easy and don’t think they should hv to work for anything.

I walked into this thread ready to argue with you. I saw this and was floored. That was incredible.

 

[John Grizzly]

at ~24:50: Knee plays more than six characters competitively, lol

I caught that, as well. Knee can most likely play the entire Tekken 7 cast at a very high level.

 

[Pterodactyl]

I think this argument is a little ridiculous on the amplified meter inputs and inputs in general for MK. Wasn't all the weird inputs in the original MK the result of making executing moves easier?

Amplified moves have been the same for the last 8 years, why change something for the sake of changing it? Switching it back to 1 button won't change the players will who will dominate in this regardless.

If we're gonna talk execution barrier the discussion should be on IAFBs and the new flawless block system.

I think you and a lot of people in both sides are over thinking the intentions of the initial change.

There is no way they’d did it to make execution difficult, because the commands weren’t actually hard. The only challenge involved is the 5 more minutes it would take to memorize the extra little commands. The stuff was really simple and made sense for the attacks the characters followed up with. It was a game feel thing.


I encourage anyone wondering what this type of input system could feel like to play it in MKX, because there’s actually a character intentionally designed this way:

I never considered myself a Mileena main but this was one of top 5 most played characters throughout MKX’s life since launch, I put hours into playing Ravenous, and it was all because the combos felt so damn SATISFYING to do.

 

[Ram]

I'd be surprised if everyone had equal options on these. Just based on NRS's track records where some characters can duck projectiles others can't, or some characters uppercuts are good anti airs and others are not. Somewhat of an over simplification but the act of pressing down to duck can be considered by definition as a universal input and historically the ducking properties have varied between NRS characters so it would really surprise me if all characters wakeup options were equal.

I thought 16 bit mentioned in the commentary with UltraDavid during The Reveal event that while the wakeup would have a universal input, the strength of each character's wakeup would be different.

Whelp, now l don’t know what to think lol