The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[PLAYING TO WIN]

And how would having to memorize "back, forward, 1 then 2" work against that situation where you're already memorizing every string and every command special except you replace the last input with the universal button. If you can master a character in 3 days, adding a single different button to ex specials won't change those 3 days, maybe add 3 minutes to the process...

This mechanic added nothing, solved nothing, it was just fake, a placebo.

I think it's ridiculous how something that wasn't even related to execution has evolved into discussing that execution is dead.

The input thing is not the talking point, rather, it’s more lack of depth. We are all afraid bc 16 keeps saying these characters are easy to play. We do not want another deadshot or aqua man situation. If this input thing is all we have to kombat the paper rock scissors/ppl using 5 characters then so be it.

I’ll keep saying it. Execution adds depth to a game. No character should be top tier and super easy to learn. No respected fighting game had top tiers that were deadshot easy and the relative games top players having a roster of 3 to 5 top tiers that cover almost every matchup.

 

[dribirut]

I think it’s dumb that they’re lowering the execution barrier for a game that was already very low execution compared to other fighting games

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

I think it’s dumb that they’re lowering the execution barrier for a game that was already very low execution compared to other fighting games

It makes me happy to see people like you comment like this. Makes me feel a bit less crazy lol.

 

[Juggs]

@Juggs , having more difficult inputs for amplified moves hardly classifies as a "critical thing" that prevents players from participating in certain strategies. Whether or not one frame links should exist as part of a character's bread and butter combo would be a meaningful argument that we could agree or disagree on, but no element that has been observed thus far in Mortal Kombat 11 closely resembles the difficulty of execution that are one frame links. So albeit Sirlin does make great points, none of them are applicable in this case.

The topic is execution, Dave. All of his points are absolutely applicable. They just go against your opinion.

 

[wsj515]

The input thing is not the talking point, rather, it’s more lack of depth. We are all afraid bc 16 keeps saying these characters are easy to play. We do not want another deadshot or aqua man situation. If this input thing is all we have to kombat the paper rock scissors/ppl using 5 characters then so be it.

I’ll keep saying it. Execution adds depth to a game. No character should be top tier and super easy to learn. No respected fighting game had top tiers that were deadshot easy and the relative games top players having a roster of 3 to 5 top tiers that cover almost every matchup.

I don't think a single person disagrees with this lol. People are reacting to the Tom and Dave etc. who were saying that the input changes add depth.

Edit: Also, easy to play isn't necessarily bad, but characters should obviously be very difficult to play at the highest level. Ideally, characters should have really low skill floors and really high skill ceilings.

 

[deathstroke187]

i dont want to spam or anything but i forgot to mention how much i dislike them comparing Tekken to NRS games . Tekken games are legacy games meaning its the same god damn moves and character since every single Mortal kombat games have been diferent maybe inj1 and 2 are legacy but thats about it... cmon man how the hell you will compare something that has 25+ years to something that have 2 years life span. saying mkx doesnt have depth is ludacris . Ninjakilla shown us just recently how good Liu Kang can be played at the highest of level but other pros wasnt able to. this game has so mutch more to be discovered . Anyway im just tired of man childs crying for no reasons.

 

[spidey300]

I get that you guys are arguing about setting a precedent but I think this is a bad example. I don't think the old amplify inputs add any real depth to the game it's just 10 extra minutes learning inputs in training mode. also I have enough faith in nrs to think that they didn't just make this change because people were whining. I'm sure that if they really thought the old system was the best way to go they would have just stick with it. I'm sure that both the qa and design team agreed that this was a better direction to go in.

so you want easy learning for a character?

 

[spidey300]

I honestly can't believe you or anyone else supports different inputs for amplified moves. It's not like it's hard to do and suddenly makes you a god of execution and better than the rest, it's just a nuisance that makes you fill your brain with more rubbish instead of actually focusing on the stuff that matters.

so you just can't handle having to learn more huh

 

[spidey300]

Amplify inputs aside, cancels require execution and we know that cancels are not eliminated in this game...

but they eliminated run and run cancels which people definitely complained about

 

[deathstroke187]

for me the best hyped moment in the NRS FGC history was when Honeybee cameback from a 100% life deficit and beated Theo or when DJT walked down REO at EVO or when CDJR mirrored Tyrant for the best Jax in mk9 . those moments where magic and hype af not because those players had crazy execution. anyone can do a combo but not anyone can outplay someone like Daigo dominated SF for years. Daigo is known for impeccable execution but also is will to never give up and mind games. just like sonicfox.

 

[M2Dave]

The topic is execution, Dave. All of his points are absolutely applicable. They just go against your opinion.

So the previous inputs for amplified moves are on the same terms as frame links?

And that is why you (and Crimson Shadow) are frequently the "Fool of the Week".

 

[Wrenchfarm]

People upset because 16-Bit has been saying each character is "easy to use", wow.

Do you really think ANYONE, in what is essentially an elaborate infomercial for their product, is going to say "oh this shit is super hard to use and will take a lot of time to learn"?

Guessing not a lot of people work in the software business around here. Everything is "easy to use" when you're demoing it

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I can't understand the logic of thinking that having to learn a couple extra inputs for meter burn would stop someone from playing an alt after they already had to learn:

• That character’s entire moveset
• That character’s optimal punishes, conversions and bnbs
• The character’s frame data
• The character’s meta and some of the MUs

“But hey, I’ve gotta remember to press Up+X to MB so I’m not gonna be able to play my alt.”

Keep these ridiculous points coming boyz.

 

[Baconlord]

so you want easy learning for a character?

I want systems that add actual strategic depth to the game. literally the only thing the old system did was confuse casual players

 

[M2Dave]

literally the only thing the old system did was confuse casual players.

NRS can assign one button special moves, combos, fatalities, etc. for casual gamers (i.e., all the people who voted "yes" in the poll). For this reason, I am arguing for a "tournament" or "competitive" mode with traditional or more involved inputs.

 

[Baconlord]

alright so I've done some more thinking on this topic and there's some stuff I agree with. nrs games can benefit from higher execution and yes higher execution can lead to more depth in a game. however I don't think the basic system mechanics are were you should have this execution. you don't want to put up execution barriers that early on in a game with universal stuff like amplify moves because that scares off new players. the execution should be there in the characters mechanics itself, not something that is required to have a basic understanding of a game.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Game needs more depth. Better ways to do it then this new amplify feature. Perfect guard and lethal hits are good additions. NRS should keep borrowing from other games. Technically interactables add depth, I stil dont care for that mechanic.

It just seems tacked on, but they couldve let it rock in the beta to experiment. At the very least you could make only some characters have to do an intricate mb special input to raise the barrier. You know, to” balance” mb moves instead of changing meter for everyone.

Honestly why arent you guys talking about the meter system? Thats a bigger deal. Cooldowns like some mobile game lul. That’s the type of mechanic that’ll kill a fg

 

[wsj515]

NRS can assign one button special moves, combos, fatalities, etc. for casual gamers

Nobody wants this. Everyone in this thread agrees that high execution is a good thing that is makes the game more interesting, more fun, and generates hype. What people don't want are arbitrary mechanics that have no purpose or depth, like having different inputs for enhancing specials. You are very selectively replying to comments in order to create a false narrative.

 

[Baconlord]

NRS can assign one button special moves, combos, fatalities, etc. for casual gamers (i.e., all the people who voted "yes" in the poll). For this reason, I am arguing for a "tournament" or "competitive" mode with traditional or more involved inputs.

I agree that there should be more execution required in nrs games but my point is that I don't think this is the right way to do it. we absolutely should have systems and mechanics that rewards your time investment, but something as simple as ex moves is not the place to do it. and I don't want to make it sound like I think you guys suck or some shit like other people in this thread, I respect you guys as players and I agree with what your overall argument is, I just don't think this is an example of the problem you're addressing.

 

[Juggs]

So the previous inputs for amplified moves are on the same terms as frame links?

And that is why you (and Crimson Shadow) are frequently the "Fool of the Week".

Dang, you went straight to ad hominems in the other thread, now straight to a strawman argument. And then used another ad hominem in the same post! You waste no time throwing out the logical fallacies do you?

 

[Gamer68]

So the previous inputs for amplified moves are on the same terms as frame links?

And that is why you (and Crimson Shadow) are frequently the "Fool of the Week".

NRS can assign one button special moves, combos, fatalities, etc. for casual gamers (i.e., all the people who voted "yes" in the poll). For this reason, I am arguing for a "tournament" or "competitive" mode with traditional or more involved inputs.

I feel like you've ignored most people in this thread that has posted good arguments, or completely deflected any points they had by calling them casual gamers or scrubs. In the thread that was dedicated to the Amplified input change, I'm pretty sure you told @CrimsonShadow to try to make "posts that actually have value", yet here you are with this.

You must be trolling. I honestly can't see how you can be serious. It's like you are trying to start a debate just for the sake of having debate, not to find any real conclusion.

 

[GLoRToR]

People upset because 16-Bit has been saying each character is "easy to use", wow.

Do you really think ANYONE, in what is essentially an elaborate infomercial for their product, is going to say "oh this shit is super hard to use and will take a lot of time to learn"?

Guessing not a lot of people work in the software business around here. Everything is "easy to use" when you're demoing it

This.

 

[Roy Arkon]

Let's illustrate the height of the hypocrisy here:

-NRS implements Flawless Block with a 3-frame window, clearly aimed at players who like higher execution and timing requirements -- Cool.
-NRS adds a detailed system of single use Krushing Blows, some of which have very specific requirements -- Cool.
-NRS decides to keep Meter Burn the same as before -- "Omg, execution is dead, NRS catering to casuals"

Huh?

Exactly. I've said myself that Tom was praising all of the new mechanics like the Krushing Blows and the new meter system and what not both in REO's podcasts and his own podcasts and he found great reasons to back up his praises, but now NRS are changing one thing and all of the sudden he acts as none of that matters anymore and he even has concerns about those mechanics as well, the same mechanics that he praised before. That is ridiculous.

 

[Rearawt]

What people don't want are arbitrary mechanics that have no purpose or depth, like having different inputs for enhancing specials.

Where do you draw that line though, because it seems completely arbitrary already. Strings having the inputs they do is fine and good, but specials that have inputs like strings are purposeless and shallow and should be removed. Why?

 

[Kroaken]

Good podcast. Always happy to hear from Brady. Thanks