Reo's Balance Suggestions.

[Juggs]

Lmao Supergirl players flock in the numbers to tell you what's wrong with their character, meanwhile nobody talking about any other characters mentioned in the video.

These are all in response to other people. I orginally suggested a small buff alternative to REO's. Then I get stuck defending myself because people are saying nonsensical things. If the only response to my post was "I disagree, I don't think she needs that", I would have agreed to disagree. But when you respond in a condescending way like I'm an idiot for suggesting what I did, that's when there's a problem and I feel the need to defend myself.

 

[Superman64]

I play Cheetah and WoWo neither of these characters meet this criteria and cant burn a bar to be safe. You go all in and its a full combo punish.

Mb shield bash to be +2 and at a range to go for overhead not saying its the best or it doesn't have a gap but you said she doesnt have one.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I play Cheetah and WoWo neither of these characters meet this criteria and cant burn a bar to be safe. You go all in and its a full combo punish.

Cheetah has a a footsie-range advancing f3 that leaves her +10 on block. And the longest-ranged jump-in in the game. I'm sorry she doesn't also have a crazy footsie string to keep you from playing neutral against her at all.

Wonder Woman isn't lacking in the footsie department, and only needs to correctly space and choose her generously-ranged tools.

If both of those characters receive buffs it probably won't be to footsies, but to other things.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

No, most of the cast has confirmable combo starters from neutral. If you aren't a hard zoner, your main pressure tool likely has a hitconfirm for a bar, for trait, or for free. This isn't "top 5 exclusive material".

What separates the Top 5 are extreme damage, plus frames on footsie tools/traits that leave you at advantage for additional pressure, significant chip damage, full-screen hit-confirms, insanely good jump-in normals, etc. *Not* basic tenents like hitconfirmable footsie strings.

The only characters that have issues with these tools are absolute rock bottom, like Swamp Thing. You are crying about things that almost every character in the game get free.

dude, please, go read my suggestions please, i feel like i'm talking apples and you're talking coconuts. I'm saying make her b12 safe-ish at -5/7 and her b123 at -4/5, but leave the gap. This way you should be able to remain safe if you don't want to over commit, but still you'll need hit confirm shit instead of throwing moves. combine this with a damage buff and maybe what reo suggested and you have a top 15 character at WORST.


I'm not crying lol, seems the other way around to me...

and stop downplaying b12, it's and extremely strong footsie tool, it's hit confirmable and i'm suggesting to make it safe so you should be on my side here.

Top tiers busted tools should be normalized. we should not overbuff the lower tiers (a.k.a. the Bane treatement)

I know you dont want me to compare but literally almost every character has one so why cant supergirl. Supergirl is not borderline busted where we need to be super careful with buffs. SuperGirl players ask to be safe on block on something so its not almost a death wish for pressing a button. You say she has all these things she has all these things but what is supergirl suppose to do whiff punish everything because if any of are buttons hit a block we can get punished is that what you call borderline top tier. Not saying she isnt good she is but she is heavily unsafe and has probably the lowest damage in the game. No she doesnt need a damage buff she just needs to be safe. Her thing is she suppose to have good footsies so being able to make your buttons safe allows her to fill that role better.

you want safety? i've been posting about making b12/b123 safe options on block and where were you?

asking for gapless shit...

yes you need to be careful with sg, she already has strong neutral and overall great mobility.

There is nothing in supergirls kit that justifies her string have 4-5 much worst aspects in it compared to a large portion of the cast. There is nothing about it being gapless that will be too strong. She still has to burn meter for it to be safe. Her turn is still over after she burns a bar, AND even if you get hit it leads to pitiful damage.

What is the actual reasoning for supergirls b12 into breath being too strong?

how's making it gapless improves her gameplan? you'd still be in the same situation you're in now when they block her breath. there are better ways to improve her and make her scarier.

 

[alkipot]

Supergirl players turning every buff suggestion thread to "buff Supergirl she need TEH halp!!11". Just remove all her weaknesses, keep her very, very good strengths and maybe she'll be finally competitive in their eyes.

And I thought the Bison/Zangief forums on SRK were bad...

 

[Qwark28]

And to think that a few months ago there were threads asking how come all the top players aren't on TYM anymore.

 

[DC King]

This is why we can't have nice things. Seems like player's want a brain dead easy to pick up and do 50% dmg char instead of working for shit.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

dude, please, go read my suggestions please, i feel like i'm talking apples and you're talking coconuts. I'm saying make her b12 safe-ish at -5/7 and her b123 at -4/5, but leave the gap. This way you should be able to remain safe if you don't want to over commit, but still you'll need hit confirm shit instead of throwing moves. combine this with a damage buff and maybe what reo suggested and you have a top 15 character at WORST.


I'm not crying lol, seems the other way around to me...

and stop downplaying b12, it's and extremely strong footsie tool, it's hit confirmable and i'm suggesting to make it safe so you should be on my side here.

Top tiers busted tools should be normalized. we should not overbuff the lower tiers (a.k.a. the Bane treatement)



you want safety? i've been posting about making b12/b123 safe options on block and where were you?

asking for gapless shit...

yes you need to be careful with sg, she already has strong neutral and overall great mobility.



how's making it gapless improves her gameplan? you'd still be in the same situation you're in now when they block her breath. there are better ways to improve her and make her scarier.

B12 doesn't need to be safe, or staggerable. It just needs to not have the gap and do decent (but not amazing) damage. This isn't called "throwing moves", it's how Injustice works for most of the cast.

The point of making it significantly negative was for her to not be able to stagger it at will.

Making b12 -4 would open up a whole other can of worms in pressure and I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[Superman64]

Im done I am really done. Blame the super girl players for getting things of track juggs just stated his opinion on one of the characters in the video the other players came out and turned the tread about supergirl. Supergirl players didn't start anything people wanted to argue about what they think buffs she need or that she doesn't need none. Surprise how if other characters say they need buffs and everyone is like yeah but every time the name supergirl it just starts of fiery rage of people hating on the characters and make it seem like the players are downplaying. You wanna bring up pros well look at the video, go ask Foxy, Scar any top player on supergirl and ask them what they think. Well im not trying to be rude but i just think some of yall just suck at the match up and just dont want to come to terms with that fact.

 

[Wetdoba]

Umm why aren't we talking about the characters that are actually trash? Hmm idk like cyborg brainiac etc? And why do I feel SG will get the kitana treatment? All she and blue beetle need is a dmg buff.


But seriously though why we aren't talking about characters that NEED to be talked about?

Cyborg doesnt really need anything if others are getting nornalized. He is already safe or plus on everything with a projectile for area of the screen and solid damage for a bar or any conversion of missles or trait. Hes not suppose to be a mix machine. Just make grapple require a button so i dont get it accidently when moving around in nuetral and maybe shave a few frames off missle recovertly and thats it

 

[Zionix]

Cheetah has a a footsie-range advancing f3 that leaves her +10 on block. And the longest-ranged jump-in in the game. I'm sorry she doesn't also have a crazy footsie string to keep you from playing neutral against her at all.

Wonder Woman isn't lacking in the footsie department, and only needs to correctly space and choose her generously-ranged tools.

If both of those characters receive buffs it probably won't be to footsies, but to other things.

I'm not interested in buffs for the characters I play, they are far from low tier.

I do wish Cheetah was a little less all in and b1 had more range but I'd much rather see nerfs at the top.

Someone said about WoWo shield bash being plus 2 on mb; i was talking about full launchers when I made cant be safe for a bar comment.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

It doesn't need to be safe, or staggerable. It just needs to not have a gap and do decent, but not amazing damage. This isn't called "throwing moves", it's how Injustice works for almost the entire cast.

The point of making it significantly negative was for her to not be able to stagger it at will.

Making b12 -4 would open up a whole other can of worms in pressure, and that's not what's being asked for. The point is to make her up to par, rather than ridiculous.

i'm not talking about staggering it, -5/7 is enough to end your turn but still don't be combo punishable but, if you don't think b12 should be safe then they can make b123 safe so you can knock down ppl mashing in between the gap.

it's the same concept as lao in mkx.. when ex hat was +27 nobody would dare to press a button, but when they nerfed it to +12 they actually made it better cause people would open themselves to baits and punishes for trying to contest his plus frames.

this way she would be fun to play and she wouldn't be broken cause it's all about mindgames, which is a good thing in fighting game.

 

[Zionix]

Cyborg doesnt really need anything if others are getting nornalized. He is already safe or plus on everything with a projectile for area of the screen and solid damage for a bar or any conversion of missles or trait. Hes not suppose to be a mix machine. Just make grapple require a button so i dont get it accidently when moving around in nuetral and maybe shave a few frames off missle recovertly and thats it

I think this is a good position to have right now for the long term benefit of the game.

Fix the top and make no or very minor adjustments to the bottom

 

[Superman64]

I'm not interested in buffs for the characters I play, they are far from low tier.

I do wish Cheetah was a little less all in and b1 had more range but I'd much rather see nerfs at the top.

Someone said about WoWo shield bash being plus 2 on mb; i was talking about full launchers when I made cant be safe for a bar comment.

any way you put even if she had the change she had to spend a bar on block to be -5 and if not she is -18 so punishable easily if you dont spend the meter you need to get any sort of your 300 damage without landing a raw mb teleport or use interactables.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Im done I am really done. Blame the super girl players for getting things of track juggs just stated his opinion on one of the characters in the video the other players came out and turned the tread about supergirl. Supergirl players didn't start anything people wanted to argue about what they think buffs she need or that she doesn't need none. Surprise how if other characters say they need buffs and everyone is like yeah but every time the name supergirl it just starts of fiery rage of people hating on the characters and make it seem like the players are downplaying. You wanna bring up pros well look at the video, go ask Foxy, Scar any top player on supergirl and ask them what they think. Well im not trying to be rude but i just think some of yall just suck at the match up and just dont want to come to terms with that fact.

I actually never lose badly to supergirl... if i lose it's on me and i know exactly what i did wrong and try not to do it the next time.

you can ask @ShArp we've played a few good sets together. He's a very good sg player

 

[Superman64]

I actually never lose badly to supergirl... if i lose it's on me and i know exactly what i did wrong and try not to do it the next time.

see that good on you but not everyone who talks about changes are like that.

 

[Zionix]

any way you put even if she had the change she had to spend a bar on block to be -5 and if not she is -18 so punishable easily if you dont spend the meter you need to get any sort of your 300 damage without landing a raw mb teleport or use interactables.

I understand where you are coming from.

 

[Wetdoba]

I think this is a good position to have right now for the long term benefit of the game.

Fix the top and make no or very minor adjustments to the bottom

There arent any characters that need complete overhauls on either side. Most characters can be made fair or competitive with just one or two smart quality of life changes. Theres no need to overthink these or over change any character. Start small and let it play out, we dont just want to shift tiers around like every other patch.

 

[DeftMonk]

I don't agree with the change to from the deep, making it a move for more skilled players will only remove him from online warriors, it wouldn't do anything in the competitive scene. A character should never be balanced around it being harder or easier to use (in an ideal world all characters requiere equal skill and their tools are perfectly balanced across the board).

? What ideal world is this? High skill cap chars are totally fine.

 

[Lokheit]

? What ideal world is this? High skill cap chars are totally fine.

So Wrestler Jax needing to perfectly time inputs at the right frames including 4 buttons at the same time to get the exact same damage than many other grapplers by just inputing their grabs is fine? Nope.

What I said is that all characters should have equal learning curves, meaning that all of them should have a base that any player can pick, and a learning curve that rewards investing time on them (I didn't say characters shouldn't require skill, only that there shouldn't be a disparity and that high execution should make sense with the results rather than being artificial like adding weird inputs with no reward like Jax's case for example).

Having that kind of execution disparity because potato is not right from a design standpoint. If it makes sense it's ok but all characters should have learning curves: many players LIKE specific characters and if a game is designed to have potato characters and jedi master execution ones, they're screwed if their beloved one falls into the later group, in the ideal world I was talking about they can play with the base tools of any of them and high skill players can perform better with all of them.

 

[Shaka]

? What ideal world is this? High skill cap chars are totally fine.

Exactly, If the entire cast were simple mode Aquaman this game would become boring very fast.

 

[Lokheit]

Exactly, If the entire cast were simple mode Aquaman this game would become boring very fast.

Again read my other replies because it doesn't look like I expressed the idea right in the other post. The main idea was that making a character harder to use shouldn't be considered a way to balance him because tournament players won't care at all and because what I said about all characters needing to have learning curves. I didn't say all characters should be potato.

 

[DeftMonk]

So Wrestler Jax needing to perfectly time inputs at the right frames including 4 buttons at the same time to get the exact same damage than many other grapplers by just inputing their grabs is fine? Nope.

What I said is that all characters should have equal learning curves, meaning that all of them should have a base that any player can pick, and a learning curve that rewards investing time on them (I didn't say characters shouldn't require skill, only that there shouldn't be a disparity and that high execution should make sense with the results rather than being artificial like adding weird inputs with no reward like Jax's case for example).

Having that kind of execution disparity because potato is not right from a design standpoint. If it makes sense it's ok but all characters should have learning curves: many players LIKE specific characters and if a game is designed to have potato characters and jedi master execution ones, they're screwed if their beloved one falls into the later group, in the ideal world I was talking about they can play with the base tools of any of them and high skill players can perform better with all of them.

Agree to disagree bro. Look at any other fighting game, guilty gear for example. Johnny is much more difficult to use than say Leo or soulbadguy does that mean u will win more? No it just means you are gonna have a lot of swag(high skill cap char). That command grab jack had was just a dumb design. Anywho back to the original thread before it gets derailed... I am surprised he didn't say anything about lowering the chip slightly on trident rush? Am I alone in feeling that ish is lame?

 

[DeftMonk]

Agree to disagree bro. Look at any other fighting game, guilty gear for example. Johnny is much more difficult to use than say Leo or soulbadguy does that mean u will win more? No it just means you are gonna have a lot of swag.

That command grab jax had was just a dumb design. Anywho back to the original thread before it gets derailed... I am surprised he didn't say anything about lowering the chip slightly on trident rush? Am I alone in feeling that ish is lame?

 

[chores]

Again read my other replies because it doesn't look like I expressed the idea right in the other post. The main idea was that making a character harder to use shouldn't be considered a way to balance him because tournament players won't care at all and because what I said about all characters needing to have learning curves. I didn't say all characters should be potato.

i get what you are saying and it makes sense but i think it is okay to balance around steep execution requirements within reason e.g. zato in guilty gear or viper in sf4