What's new

Reo's Balance Suggestions.

Shaka

Tier Whore.
Again read my other replies because it doesn't look like I expressed the idea right in the other post. The main idea was that making a character harder to use shouldn't be considered a way to balance him because tournament players won't care at all and because what I said about all characters needing to have learning curves. I didn't say all characters should be potato.
INj2 isn't the first fighter with simple mode top tiers and execution heavy low tiers.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I dont want anyone over-buffed or over-nerfed, but I'm not a huge fan of just pulling the top tiers down and letting some of the weaker characters get better by default.. The weaker characters still have crappy stuff that's not strong, and thus generally, not as fun, rewarding or satisfying.

This particular comment isnt aimed at any specific thing, just a general statement. I think it makes for a more interesting and dynamic game.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
I appreciate the SG talk, I've labbed her but no expert, Learn a lot. Now could you guys talk about the rest?

How do you guys feel about those Adam/Aqua changes? I think that's about all nerfs they need, anymore will be over nerfing them.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
This is why we can't have nice things. Seems like player's want a brain dead easy to pick up and do 50% dmg char instead of working for shit.
We already have a couple of those.. If we aren't already playing them then I dont think we want that. I think people just want their respective characters to be strong.

I'll admit it openly.. I dont want my characters to be "viable". I want them to be strong. Not broken, but I dont want them to just scrape by and be generously described as "Not that bad" or "Decent" and I dont think there is a thing in the world wrong with that. I want every character in the game to be A-A+, and I favor changes that put them there.

Not attacking your statement or trying to start an argument, just trying to give an a different angle. I know this is a competitive site and we're all supposed to be totally focused on nothing but sterile, competitive viability and that can be achieved with a kind of bare-minimum approach.. But. shrug. I dont see why we cant all aim high.

Yes, I know, there is danger of characters being over-buffed and a new SS tier emerging, but in general, I dont see that many suggestions that would lead to something like that happening.

It always amazes me when i read about someone playing a bad character and asking for these teeny tiny buffs and they say things like "I love this character and just want him/her to be viable".. Fuck that noise. I want them to be STRONG. I see no problem with taking a bottom 1 character and ramping them up to (a reasonable) top 10 placement.

Shrug. I know, this rant was unwarranted. Im bored.
 
I appreciate the SG talk, I've labbed her but no expert, Learn a lot. Now could you guys talk about the rest?

How do you guys feel about those Adam/Aqua changes? I think that's about all nerfs they need, anymore will be over nerfing them.
I think the black Adam changes were good, but i think the aquaman nerfs only really hurt the lesser players the better players will know the spacing to a point where it wont make a difference. It makes him harder not worse in my opinion.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I appreciate the SG talk, I've labbed her but no expert, Learn a lot. Now could you guys talk about the rest?

How do you guys feel about those Adam/Aqua changes? I think that's about all nerfs they need, anymore will be over nerfing them.
In large part I agree. I dont want them gutted, I just want them normalized some and for the lower echelons pulled up so we have a wider and more interesting array of genuinely tournament viable characters.

I mean, if you scour tournaments and factor in niche picks here and there, there is "ok" representation, but its still one or two or maybe three fringe picks for every 8 or 9 main picks. I hate to say it, but Ive been super bored watching the competitive scene recently for Inj2. Shrug.
 

chores

bad at things
I think the black Adam changes were good, but i think the aquaman nerfs only really hurt the lesser players the better players will know the spacing to a point where it wont make a difference. It makes him harder not worse in my opinion.
the manual spacing would open up avoidance at all levels imo. could be avoided by fast forward advancing moves like red hoods dive. i dont get why some ground pound/overhead specials track while others are manually spaced. i understand manual spacing for projectiles that have a delay but like, why does aquamans track and firestorms doesnt for instance?
overall i dont think it matters much for balance, there are way bigger fish to fry
 

ShArp

Dedicated Broly main
Juggs your just downplaying. Supergirl is borderline broken and any buffs would push her over the edge. Even buffs that are not as good as the video this thread is about imo but good enough. Just stop downplaying you scrub and git gud. Lol
He plays Catwoman. And we played a set. I guess since then he thinks she can't be touched.
 

just_2swift

MK1 is the best MK period.
Cyborg doesnt really need anything if others are getting nornalized. He is already safe or plus on everything with a projectile for area of the screen and solid damage for a bar or any conversion of missles or trait. Hes not suppose to be a mix machine. Just make grapple require a button so i dont get it accidently when moving around in nuetral and maybe shave a few frames off missle recovertly and thats it
Not asking for him to be a mix up beast I want his stuff they stripped from him to return grapple hook is fine
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
I think the black Adam changes were good, but i think the aquaman nerfs only really hurt the lesser players the better players will know the spacing to a point where it wont make a difference. It makes him harder not worse in my opinion.
Idk I mained Quan in MKX and even at high levels players were avoiding rune traps all the time.
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
He plays Catwoman. And we played a set. I guess since then he thinks she can't be touched.
if this is refered to me, i can say that no, i don't think she can't be touched, i'm not even crying about her. I just think that buffing her damage and making his main string safer or straight up safe it's better than making d1/b12 gapless. that's all. I can see that she is a character with great mobility and overall solid tools, she's not helpless, but she needs the right help.

i think top tiers like cw, bladam & Co should be adressed first though.
 

ShArp

Dedicated Broly main
if this is refered to me, i can say that no, i don't think she can't be touched, i'm not even crying about her. I just think that buffing her damage and making his main string safer or straight up safe it's better than making d1/b12 gapless. that's all. I can see that she is a character with great mobility and overall solid tools, she's not helpless, but she needs the right help.

i think top tiers like cw, bladam & Co should be adressed first though.
Why are you still talking about gaples D1 WHEN this was covered shitload of times before, including Juggs himself - everyone agreed it's unecessary. Yet you still trying to bring it out, as if you don't have a valid point to back up yourself otherwise than just trying to remind same ol' same buff that everyone's agrees to be too much.
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
Why are you still talking about gaples D1 WHEN this was covered shitload of times before, including Juggs himself - everyone agreed it's unecessary. Yet you still trying to bring it out, as if you don't have a valid point to back up yourself otherwise than just trying to remind same ol' same buff that everyone's agrees to be too much.
i haven't seen him saying gapless d1 is unnecessary but eh, i must've missed it.. that's actually what got me triggered in the first place. is b123 safe on block too much though? i can see why it could be for b12 but idk...

anyways, i don't want to over argue so i'm just going to end it here. hope we can play again soon.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
He plays Catwoman. And we played a set. I guess since then he thinks she can't be touched.
I've never even touched Catwoman, and I've never played you. What are you talking about? Maybe you quoted the wrong person?
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
i haven't seen him saying gapless d1 is unnecessary but eh, i must've missed it.. that's actually what got me triggered in the first place. is b123 safe on block too much though? i can see why it could be for b12 but idk...

anyways, i don't want to over argue so i'm just going to end it here. hope we can play again soon.
Yes, I've said it multiple times that I was wrong with suggesting D1 into breath being gapless. Idk why I even originally said that, that is the first and only time I've ever suggested it. And then I agreed it was too much.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
if this is refered to me, i can say that no, i don't think she can't be touched, i'm not even crying about her. I just think that buffing her damage and making his main string safer or straight up safe it's better than making d1/b12 gapless. that's all. I can see that she is a character with great mobility and overall solid tools, she's not helpless, but she needs the right help.

i think top tiers like cw, bladam & Co should be adressed first though.
I don't want her damage buffed. The only reason she would need a damage buff is if that's the only thing that changes with her. If she gets B123 at -5 on block and B12 into breath gapless, she won't need anything else imo. Some agree with that, for varying reasons, and some disagree.
 

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
Yes, I've said it multiple times that I was wrong with suggesting D1 into breath being gapless. Idk why I even originally said that, that is the first and only time I've ever suggested it. And then I agreed it was too much.
it's alright, that got me wondering.

i can back you guys up with SG buffs cause i do think she needs something right now, but i do think the focus should be on her damage and safety instead.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I think a good way to nerf some top tiers like Black Adam is to properly incorporate the HP values. For instance I would get rid of the defense value altogether. It doesn't make much sense to make both a defense and an HP value, they kinda contradicts each other. Like across the roster with all the differen HP and defenive values, the difference in damage they take is from 1-4%. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Take SF4 for example. This is how strong characters are sometimes balanced. A character with a vast array of tools and decent damage has significantly less health than every other character (Seth). Or a character that does a lot of damage and has a good amount of options also has significantly less health than the rest of the cast (Akuma).

Essentially you're making the character a "glass cannon". He can deal massive damage but he dies much quicker than any other character. Personally I believe this would be a great way to balance Black Adam. What are y'alls thoughts on that?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think a good way to nerf some top tiers like Black Adam is to properly incorporate the HP values. For instance I would get rid of the defense value altogether. It doesn't make much sense to make both a defense and an HP value, they kinda contradicts each other. Like across the roster with all the differen HP and defenive values, the difference in damage they take is from 1-4%. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Take SF4 for example. This is how strong characters are sometimes balanced. A character with a vast array of tools and decent damage has significantly less health than every other character (Seth). Or a character that does a lot of damage and has a good amount of options also has significantly less health than the rest of the cast (Akuma).

Essentially you're making the character a "glass cannon". He can deal massive damage but he dies much quicker than any other character. Personally I believe this would be a great way to balance Black Adam. What are y'alls thoughts on that?
I think one of the biggest issues aside from Black Adam's damage is his trait. It does too many things well (chips, allows new combos, gives him plus frames, increases throw damage, let's him win matches easily when both players' health is low, etc). If you change it so that it only does some of those things, or has some other drawback, it might help level him out as a character.
 
great video but i dont agree with aquaman losing tracking from the deep since characters like poison ivy and atrocitus can keep it so is black adam? and for his invincible wakeup i dont think he needs to lose it since you can neultra jump it and full combo punish him

for batman why not reducing his dmg since he can also do 50dmg for 1 bar into restand for a second bar ?

swamp thing needs way more buffs than just that

black adam should just have reduce dmg scalling on dive kicks and he would problably do between 40-47% wich is fine compare to any other top tier like Darkseide and Batman who both do 50+
 

Snibbor

Yarrrr Matey
I like most of the changes REO suggested, and I also like what Juggs suggested, that maybe characters like BA that have a crazy amount of tools and damage should have their health reduced a bit to compensate for that.

One thing about aquaman is that I wish his MB trident rush couldn't chip out. Nothing more anti-hype at the end of a close fight than a chip out that way imo.
 

Shaka

Tier Whore.
great video but i dont agree with aquaman losing tracking from the deep since characters like poison ivy and atrocitus can keep it so is black adam? and for his invincible wakeup i dont think he needs to lose it since you can neultra jump it and full combo punish him

for batman why not reducing his dmg since he can also do 50dmg for 1 bar into restand for a second bar ?

swamp thing needs way more buffs than just that

black adam should just have reduce dmg scalling on dive kicks and he would problably do between 40-47% wich is fine compare to any other top tier like Darkseide and Batman who both do 50+
Well part 2 is coming.