Liu Kang Matchup Discussion Thread

[GuamoKun]

Haha wow I can't believe how many parries you got away with there. I'm pretty sure b312 beats parry so using it so much is pretty ballsy.

It seemed to me like the thing you had the most trouble with was Liu Kang's zoning. I don't think you win the full screen game in this matchup, like maybe you throw an ice ball at the right time and it beats a fireball but I don't think it's something you can count on, although it's good to get an ice ball on the screen every now and again just to prove that you'll do it. Anyways when Kang starts shitting fireballs everywhere, your strongest option is dash block. Kang doesn't have a lot of really strong get-off-me tools, so once you're in you should be able to stay in.

Ah. This confirms my thoughts. It is at Kang's favor when he zones and upclose its all about who reads who. But when it's against a Liu like that...it feels like 8-2 instead of 6-4.

Many thanks.

 

[JacopeX]

This does not deserve a thread, but...

TOM BRADY's Match up Chart for Liu Kang

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkOCnfkQ4mX6dHRuNTNRUkNYaDBFRTFvOU1nOV9qNXc&output=html

5-5 vs Baraka
5-5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
4-6 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
4-6 vs Freddy Krueger
5-5 vs Jade
5-5 vs Jax
5-5 vs Johnny Cage
4-6 vs Kabal
5-5 vs Kano
4-6 vs Kenshi (No surprise there. As I mentioned in the last page, Kenshi has a response to everything Liu Kang does)
4-6 vs Kitana
4.5-5.5 vs Kung Lao
6-4 vs Mileena (What? Maybe I was right after all???)
6-4 vs Nightwolf
4-6 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
4.5-5.5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain
4-6 vs Reptile
4-6 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
4-6 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
4-6 vs Sindel
4-6 vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke
4-6 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
6-4 vs Sub-Zero

Total: 144
Rank: 21/32

Thoughts?

 

[Juggs]

How do you guys prevent being pressured? I'm sure it's just an online thing, but when I'm getting pressured it seems my pokes are too slow and nothing can stop them from raping me.

 

[swag1]

How do you guys prevent being pressured? I'm sure it's just an online thing, but when I'm getting pressured it seems my pokes are too slow and nothing can stop them from raping me.

Liu Kang's fastest move is his D+3 at 7 frames. His fastest standing move is 2 at 8 frames, which conveniently launches when the full combo is finished. His uppercut is faster than his D+1, so don't use that as much (I am guilty of overusing his D+1). His D+1 is -9 on block and D+3 is -7 on block. On hit, D+1 is +5, and D+3 is +3. If you are fairly sure it will connect, and have the time to execute as such because of it's slow startup. I use D+3 and standing 2 mostly.

 

[MK Peanuts]

This does not deserve a thread, but...

TOM BRADY's Match up Chart for Liu Kang

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkOCnfkQ4mX6dHRuNTNRUkNYaDBFRTFvOU1nOV9qNXc&output=html

Thoughts?

14 of these matchups are the same as what I have in my own matchup chart. I didn't use .5s for mine so the Kung Lao and Raiden matchups are basically the same too since those are only .5 off from what I had. There's like three characters I didn't include in my own chart as I didn't feel I had the matchup experience to make an informed decision, so that bumps the number up to about 19. Of the matchups that are different, most of them I wouldn't argue too much against, like I think Kitana is even but I can understand the case that it's not. The ones that are real head scratchers for me are Mileena, Nightwolf, Scorpion, Shang Tsung, and Skarlet. Those are all off by at least 1.5 points in one direction or another. Otherwise I think Tom's chart is pretty accurate, at least for Liu Kang.

 

[XBlades]

d1 is really good against jax overhead...and if you see armor coming out of it... you can cancel into ex fly kick.. its pretty beast.

 

[Peckapowa]

um i think liu kang actually beats kitana and is even with kabal, and cyrax is certainly not a bad matchup, reptile im not sure either.. same with a bunch including nightwolf and sindel and raiden



really disagree with brady's assessment of most of the matchups, i think he his selling liu kang short

 

[Squeaker101]

Any tips against Kitana? She's a bitch to get through, I usually get out zoned, and she pokes out of my pressure. She's probably my worst match-up. If not Raiden.

 

[Peckapowa]

u should be able to out zone her with low fireballs u need to get zoning advantage and occasionally throw instant airs and spam

 

[Squeaker101]

u should be able to out zone her with low fireballs u need to get zoning advantage and occasionally throw instant airs and spam

Yea, I've been trying that, maybe its just my timing with the low fireballs, I also do iafbs alot, (not TRUE iafbs, as a true one would hit a standing opponent right?) maybe it's just wrong judgement/guessing on my part. She still gives me a hard time though.

What about Raiden?

 

[EGP_Shoryuken]

Theres no reason in the world why Kitana should out zone Liu, even if you don't know how to do IAFs, you can still out zone her. Whenever she does an IAF, instead of ducking just do a low fire ball she will land on it every time and you get a free knock down. Once you knock her down start doing high fire balls to keep her from doing IAFs. Also I discovered a easier way to do Liu's IAF, just tap down and then do the command for the IAF, only tap down for the initial IAF, after the first one the rest are easy . For some reason its easier to get a perfect head shot on the initial fire ball when you start it from a crouching position.

 

[Peckapowa]

Yea, I've been trying that, maybe its just my timing with the low fireballs, I also do iafbs alot, (not TRUE iafbs, as a true one would hit a standing opponent right?) maybe it's just wrong judgement/guessing on my part. She still gives me a hard time though.

What about Raiden?

Raiden is tricky, he can teleport out of f12 on hit, if you mix up ur fireballs (the timing) from fullscreen u have enough recovery to punish teleport with f12 or 213. (watch out for en superman) When pressure raiden try to bait the teleport or pause ur pressure short and punish with 213 with raiden ur just going to have to read the teleport and apply solid unpredictable pressure, or predictable pressure to bait the teleport. any time u are moving forward its a better time for him to teleport, so variate ur movement so u arent spaced out by his teleports. Personally i know a player name Habity who is really good against raiden with liu kang and he does this against me

 

[Peckapowa]

I would say that LK has to work hard to beat Ermac.I certainly dont agree with the 4-6 vs Ermac.One throw of Ermac and LK has to work again his way inside.Once he is back in again he still needs to be careful of throws F4's 31's which can still turn the tables in favor of Ermac.So i would say its something like 3-7 in Ermac's favor.Ofc i might be wrong.

i disagree with this analysis, outside of forcepush range liu kang wins the fireball battle, also the recovery on kangs forceball forces the ermac player to have to teleport on prediction, so if the kang variates his zoning slighty it makes it hard for him to be punished. Liu kang also has pretty devastating pressure in my opinion. I don't see how it can be a 3-7, atleast a 4-6 mr. metzos, probably 5-5 imo but i havent fought enough ermacs that would be on your level.


Also i agree with pigofthehut on the cyber sub matchup liu wins form every part of the screen


in my opinion for the kabal matchup? liu kang can actually throw a couple low fireballs from fulll screen and beat out saws in time. The fact that he neutralizes kabals spam puts a kink in kabals incredibly unfair space control potential . Also liu can (theoretically) get away with iafbs against the saw too. Im pretty certain he can get away with standing fireballs too from certain ranges pnce he stops kabals iafbs, because tehy have better recovery than the lows, and the ex nomad dash can be blocked from farther ranges. Also liu kang wins in my opinion terms of pressure. That being said kabal does have en nomad dash and better movement options, and his pressure can be godlike too.

so that being said its probably 4.5 liu 5.5 kabal imo

 

[Metzos]

i disagree with this analysis, outside of forcepush range liu kang wins the fireball battle, also the recovery on kangs forceball forces the ermac player to have to teleport on prediction, so if the kang variates his zoning slighty it makes it hard for him to be punished. Liu kang also has pretty devastating pressure in my opinion. I don't see how it can be a 3-7, atleast a 4-6 mr. metzos, probably 5-5 imo but i havent fought enough ermacs that would be on your level.

Thats a really old post. Yeah the mu is even atm as it was presented in my mu chart.

 

[Peckapowa]

Thats a really old post. Yeah the mu is even atm as it was presented in my mu chart.

id like to hear ur insight ill go read that

 

[Lou Kang]

i feel that kitana, reptile, scorpion and sindel could arguably be 5-5, and kenshi could arguably be 7-3

 

[Squeaker101]

i feel that kitana, reptile, scorpion and sindel could arguably be 5-5, and kenshi could arguably be 7-3

Could you put your reasoning? The only ones I really agree with is Sindel and Kenshi.

 

[Lou Kang]

i dont play often as im away at school and have no xbox here, but as i remember nothin of reptile's zoning pressure ever seemed overwhelming, the kitana matchup could be annoying but i found well timed low fireballs to mitigate some of her zoning, and up close i always found it pretty even. Like i said tho i'm not a frequent player at the moment, and i also have no offline experiance against reptile, sindel, or reptile (mostly an online player)


edit, so i guess i dont have any helpful reasons, when i have the game i play lots but im not big on knowiong frame data and such and cant really give any information outside how i felt out the situations

 

[Squeaker101]

i dont play often as im away at school and have no xbox here, but as i remember nothin of reptile's zoning pressure ever seemed overwhelming, the kitana matchup could be annoying but i found well timed low fireballs to mitigate some of her zoning, and up close i always found it pretty even. Like i said tho i'm not a frequent player at the moment, and i also have no offline experiance against reptile, sindel, or reptile (mostly an online player)


edit, so i guess i dont have any helpful reasons, when i have the game i play lots but im not big on knowiong frame data and such and cant really give any information outside how i felt out the situations

Ah, I see. No worries, I only have online experience as well. With Reptile i'd say it's 6-5 for us, we can outzone him with iafb., and we're more dominant up close. Reptile might be able to dash out of our pressure, but i'd say it's pretty risky. I'd think he'd give us a hard time at jumping range, or just out of f21 range. As for Kitana I have a hard time with her, but iafb can outzone her. She'll easily poke out of our pressure, so when you get the chance, i'd go for the combo. Scorpion I honestly wouldn't know. I've played the match-up a few times, but not any really good ones. Sindel? I'll leave this one alone. Kenshi? I fully agree with 7-3 for Kenshi. In all honesty i'd even say 10-0 for Kenshi...

This is all from what I know and heard. I'm no pro, and not even that well known. So we might wanna get someone who knows Liu like the back of their hand. But here's my opinion.

 

[MK Peanuts]

Some rambling thoughts on the Sektor matchup.

I couldn't sleep last night so I did like an hour of training mode around 2am. At MLG I ran some casuals with Sao87 and had a lot of trouble against his Sektor. Something he was doing that I haven't seen other Sektors do is every time I did a string that ends with Liu Kang at neutral, he would do Sektor's 12b1 string. That's got 6 startup frames so it would beat out a b312, f12, f3, 213, I mean pretty much all of my favorite strings. It leads to a full combo too.

I was kind of curious what my options against that string are. Block is obviously an option but that's pretty boring and I wanted to see if I could do anything better. I went into training mode, set the dummy to "Human", then set the 1 button on my stick to autofire and held down the block button with my big toe (incidentally, fuck the training mode in this game forever). From there I did a string that ended at neutral, then I'd let go of player 2's block and see if an immediate standing 11 from Sektor would beat my next move. I would have liked to test it against 12b1 proper but what can you do. The good news is that the second hit of Sektor's 11 hits Liu Kang out of neutral crouch, same as the second hit of his 12b1, so it's an okay substitute for what I was testing.

Anyways what I was able to determine is that you can't beat stand 1 with any of Liu Kang's standing normals, you can't backdash away from it, and you can't jump it (doesn't work for neutral jump, cross over jump, or a jump backwards). I thought maybe immediately going into Dragon Stance might work since that moves Kang's hitbox back, but it doesn't start up fast enough to avoid Sektor's stand 1. The one thing that does work is low poke. d3 works, and actually you even have time to d4 which is great cause d4 is like plus a billion. Obviously if Sektor decides to low poke he'll win because his pokes are faster, but even so it's low risk and it allows you to continue pressure if Sektor decides to stand 1.

Another option rather than trying to beat stand 1 outright is just to end strings at unpredictable times. When I played Sao I was doing f12 by itself every time, when what I realize now I should have been doing is occasionally finishing the f121 string or cancelling into an EX low fireball. It may also help to use some of Liu Kang's more obscure strings like b2b3 or 334 in an attempt to confuse the opponent.

Jesus Christ I am tired.

 

[Zyns]

I simply do not see what's so bad about the Kenshi matchup. I tend to be very successful against him. Once I get in I just bait out his armor and unleash hell. The only thing he can do that I struggle against is the overhead projectile.
I don't know, maybe I need to play better Kenshi's. On paper, the matchup seems to heavily favor Kenshi, but I just haven't been given a reason to think so.

 

[FrothyOmen]

So, how does Kang do vs. Kabal, Cage, and KL in the current state of the metagame? I feel like the OP is not updated lol

 

[TotteryManx]

Alright, here is the million dollar question. How viable is Liu Kang in high level play? He's my main offline and I'm going to attend some tournaments this year. MLG and MWC to be specific. The only characters I struggle against are the ones that can outzone Liu, except Noob. I think that mu isn't as difficult as people say. Thoughts?

 

[Eddy Wang]

I have a friend that plays with this character a lot and without breaker he can easely deal some damage after successful b312.

The Only way i found safe to deal with liu, is stop his strings before they starting, or i'll be a huge disvantage

 

[TotteryManx]

So, how does Kang do vs. Kabal, Cage, and KL in the current state of the metagame? I feel like the OP is not updated lol

IMO, I think he loses to Kabal because he can be outzoned, despite him having great zoning as well. Anytime I play a decent Cage I immediately pick LK, greedy Cages often will hit a EX dragon stance leading to a full combo. As far as KL is concerned I like it in Liu's favor. This is from my experiences.