Hot Take: Third variations will have little to no effect on the meta

[CrimsonShadow]

You’re mixing two criticisms. They took out ALL of the fun things about nrs games and people are complaining. Nobody asked tor all the fun things. Just the really dumb fun things.

As for the people complaining about broken mixups... “broken” is relative to a game’s meta. It doesn’t matter how you lose, if character’s have tools others don’t then, yea, people will complain. Who cares what the term used is.

At this point it’s pretty hard to imagine a scenario where the game comes out and people are satisfied/not complaining, pretty much regardless of what the meta is.

Just seems to kind of be the rule now. The game’s either too unbalanced, or it’s not crazy enough, there are too many mixups, or there aren’t enough mixups, they are patching too fast, or they aren’t patching fast enough, they’re nerfing too much, or they didn’t nerf enough, etc.

 

[MagicMan357]

@CrimsonShadow Just think about this

Every time i tell people factual info they get butt-hurt and start screaming troll (before i even do) and then have the fucking nerve to say that i complain which is completely ass backwards.

Ive come to realize this is their life in which they want to cry instead of actually understanding so they will go out their way to defend being stupid. There is no helping them so fuck it.

 

[B. Shazzy]

At this point it’s pretty hard to imagine a scenario where the game comes out and people are satisfied/not complaining, pretty much regardless of what the meta is.

Just seems to kind of be the rule now.

That’s a reflection of the game innit mate. If all you smell is shit, should check under your own shoe.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

That’s a reflection of the game innit mate. If all you smell is shit, should check under your own shoe.

I mean people are complaining nonstop about your favorite game too.

 

[B. Shazzy]

I mean people are complaining nonstop about your favorite game too.

Favorite game...You think Im a nerd like you guys? You wouldnt say that shit to me if you saw me, I’m jacked. Not only that but I wear the freshest clothes, eat at the chillest restaurants and hang out with the hottest dudes. Yall are pathetic playing games lol

 

[MagicMan357]

Favorite game...You think Im a nerd like you guys? You wouldnt say that shit to me if you saw me, I’m jacked. Not only that but I wear the freshest clothes, eat at the chillest restaurants and hang out with the hottest dudes. Yall are pathetic playing games lol

So why are you here?

 

[NeonGroovyGator]

At this point it’s pretty hard to imagine a scenario where the game comes out and people are satisfied/not complaining, pretty much regardless of what the meta is.

Just seems to kind of be the rule now. The game’s either too unbalanced, or it’s not crazy enough, there are too many mixups, or there aren’t enough mixups, they are patching too fast, or they aren’t patching fast enough, they’re nerfing too much, or they didn’t nerf enough, etc.

Almost like gasps the people mindlessly complaining are the problem and not the game

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Favorite game...You think Im a nerd like you guys? You wouldnt say that shit to me if you saw me, I’m jacked. Not only that but I wear the freshest clothes, eat at the chillest restaurants and hang out with the hottest dudes. Yall are pathetic playing games lol

You are a crazy fool Shazzy, haha

 

[Gruntypants]

I'm hoping they change the first 2 variations for all or most of the characters as well. Everyone could use more strings and possibly specials, a lot of the fighters just feel so barebones with few options

 

[Rude]

You’re mixing two criticisms. They took out ALL of the fun things about nrs games and people are complaining. Nobody asked tor all the fun things. Just the really dumb fun things.

As for the people complaining about broken mixups... “broken” is relative to a game’s meta. It doesn’t matter how you lose, if character’s have tools others don’t then, yea, people will complain. Who cares what the term used is.

Every fighting game has tool disparity amongst it's characters i.e. your character can do something mine can't. That's not new. Some characters are good, some characters won't be very good. Such is life.

I'm not mixing criticisms at all. Everyone complained about how over the top strong offensive options were in those games and everyone wanted it toned down. Well, now it is. Now the community is crying crocodile tears over strike/grab mix ups. It's ridiculous.

I have said this many times before and I believe this to be true: No one actually knows what they want. They only think they do.

 

[FanTalk]

Calling it right now: Scorpion is going to be S tier again with that Misery Blade variation.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

So here's something that brings me no end of amusement about discourse surrounding MK11:

We went from characters like Summoner Quan and MKX in general and Injustice where there were looping vortexes, ambiguous cross ups and heavy set play and everyone complained.

Now, people are taking a strike/throw mix up - which is one of the most basic mix ups in fighting games - and we're treating it like it's the most broke shit ever. What do people want? To never have to make a read or guess? Those things are apart if fighting games.

Wild times we live in.

This is a dumb as fuck hella scape goating take.

Let me explain something that seems to escape most people on this site.

We like broke shit when it has nuance and counterplay that extends beyond "don't get hit" or just guess. The Quan vortex was dumb because there was no counterplay to it, but the Firestorm vortex was fine, was pretty seeable in the opinion of a lot of high level players and was completely shut down by push blocking. It gave Firestorm personality, something to be scared of, but you had a way to shut it down and his neutral was sus.

Batman having a vortex was dumb because he had all of his tools ON TOP of it. If he'd been built entirely around the vortex and didn't have mech bats he'd be perfectly fine.

The auto-shimmy/oki throw/fast mid RPS in this game has no counterplay. It's a straight guess. That's not enjoyable to anybody, either on the offender or defenders side. The fact for most characters that it perpetually loops into itself adds to the annoyance of it. I'm really tired of this bullshit red herring argument.

People dislike MK11 because everyones broke shit is the exact same thing and it stems from rudimentary decisions. The broke shit isn't unique, it doesn't have solid definitive counterplay that the opponent has to work around or break you via conditioning. Even MKX had this in it's last patch and Inj2 certainly had that all it's life regardless of what individual character balance disparities there were.

Also, the game punishes people for having whiff and block punishment knowledge down due to breakaway and just reinforces this boring auto shimmy/oki throw/mid RPS even more and penalizes the characters who don't play that game, thus rendering the game lacking in diversity and boring af.

I don't see how people on this site are so lacking in nuance that they're unable to see this.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

We like broke shit when it has nuance and counterplay that extends beyond "don't get hit" or just guess. The Quan vortex was dumb because there was no counterplay to it, but the Firestorm vortex was fine, was pretty seeable in the opinion of a lot of high level players and was completely shut down by push blocking. It gave Firestorm personality, something to be scared of, but you had a way to shut it down and his neutral was sus.

You're not getting away with this one. Quan Chi was Broke. Capital B BROKE. Not 'broke', not 'erm it might be kinda strong'. He was busted.

Firestorm was 'good'. Let's not act like Firestorm was cleaning everybody up at tourneys just because he had some dirt.

 

[just_2swift]

Wow so the title is a bill of goods.

Liu kang is a better grapple character than kotal Kahn and has a better teleport than Kung Lao.


Hot Take: Third variations will have little to no effect on the meta

hot take indeed.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Nah. You're not getting away with this one. Quan Chi was Broke. Capital B BROKE. Not 'broke', not 'erm it might be kinda strong'. He was busted.

Firestorm was 'good'. Let's not act like FIrestorm was cleaning everybody up at tourneys just because he had some dirt.

Where did I suggest Quan wasn't? I was explaining exactly WHY he was and why he was in a toxic manner.

Also I don't get the point about Firestorm. I agree with you. My point was everyone bitched about how broke he was but his strengths had deliberate counterplay applications.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Where did I suggest Quan wasn't? I was explaining exactly WHY he was and why he was in a toxic manner.

Also I don't get the point about Firestorm. I agree with you. My point was everyone bitched about how broke he was but his strengths had deliberate counterplay applications.

I'm just saying that there's really nothing right now in MK11 that's as lacking in counterplay as MKX Quan. That was the guy's original point.

Strike/throw has plenty of counterplay. Jump beats throw, neutral crouch beats throw, slight walkback beats throw. And by "beats" we mean full combo punish.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I'm just saying that there's really nothing right now in MK11 that's as lacking in counterplay as MKX Quan. That was the guy's original point.

Strike throw has plenty of counterplay. Jump beats throw, neutral crouch beats throw, slight walkback beats throw. And by "beats" we mean full combo punish.

A guess isn't counterplay though. My point is we're experiencing the SFV problem where the game is universally oriented around this RPS vortex. You have no way to eliminate any of those options via MU knowledge. Maybe this would be fine if BREAKAWAY DIDN'T EXIST to let you opt out of being blown up, but here we are.

IMO that trifecta of auto-shimmy/oki throw/mid is exactly the same thing as the Quan shit. Your agency is a guess. If you're wrong you take damage AND it loops into itself. It's no different. The reward is nowhere near as good yes, but it doesn't change the fact you can just never get your turn back.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

A guess isn't counterplay though. My point is we're experiencing the SFV problem where the game is universally oriented around this RPS vortex. You have no way to eliminate any of those options via MU knowledge. Maybe this would be fine if BREAKAWAY DIDN'T EXIST to let you opt out of being blown up, but here we are.

IMO that trifecta of auto-shimmy/oki throw/mid is exactly the same thing as the Quan shit. Your agency is a guess. If you're wrong you take damage AND it loops into itself. It's no different. The reward is nowhere near as good yes, but it doesn't change the fact you can just never get your turn back.

A read is counterplay. It's literally half the counterplay in fighting games. Which was part of his point -- we're acting like having to make a read is untenable. If someone is close enough to throw you than you've already lost the neutral, and now you need to make a read on what they'll do.

If you get thrown, and you don't tech it, in most cases you eat 14% and the neutral is reset. There are a couple of exceptions, but saying it's the same as Summoner Quan is completely bananas.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

A read is counterplay. It's literally half the counterplay in fighting games. Which was part of his point -- we're actually like having to make a read is untenable. If someone is close enough to throw you than you've already lost the neutral, and now you need to make a read on what they'll do.

If you get thrown, and you don't tech it, in most cases you eat 14% and the neutral is reset. There are a couple of exceptions, but saying it's the same as Summoner Quan is completely bananas.

I mean I've talked with top players who agree as much with my perception of the game and the consensus on twitter is that we just have to accept it for what it is.

 

[sub_on_dubs]

I dont know man. Sub, Noob and Kollector look like they're going to change the meta to me. Can't wait to try out Subby

 

[Rude]

This is a dumb as fuck hella scape goating take.

Let me explain something that seems to escape most people on this site.

We like broke shit when it has nuance and counterplay that extends beyond "don't get hit" or just guess. The Quan vortex was dumb because there was no counterplay to it, but the Firestorm vortex was fine, was pretty seeable in the opinion of a lot of high level players and was completely shut down by push blocking. It gave Firestorm personality, something to be scared of, but you had a way to shut it down and his neutral was sus.

Batman having a vortex was dumb because he had all of his tools ON TOP of it. If he'd been built entirely around the vortex and didn't have mech bats he'd be perfectly fine.

The auto-shimmy/oki throw/fast mid RPS in this game has no counterplay. It's a straight guess. That's not enjoyable to anybody, either on the offender or defenders side. The fact for most characters that it perpetually loops into itself adds to the annoyance of it. I'm really tired of this bullshit red herring argument.

People dislike MK11 because everyones broke shit is the exact same thing and it stems from rudimentary decisions. The broke shit isn't unique, it doesn't have solid definitive counterplay that the opponent has to work around or break you via conditioning. Even MKX had this in it's last patch and Inj2 certainly had that all it's life regardless of what individual character balance disparities there were.

Also, the game punishes people for having whiff and block punishment knowledge down due to breakaway and just reinforces this boring auto shimmy/oki throw/mid RPS even more and penalizes the characters who don't play that game, thus rendering the game lacking in diversity and boring af.

I don't see how people on this site are so lacking in nuance that they're unable to see this.

You just said a whole bunch of words only for me to tell you that most of the broke shit in I2 came down to guess overhead/low or left right, sometimes both.

And everyone complained about it and couldn't wait for I2 to die.

 

[Rude]

I mean I've talked with top players who agree as much with my perception of the game and the consensus on twitter is that we just have to accept it for what it is.

Appeal to authority fallacy, lol.

 

[Rude]

This is a dumb as fuck hella scape goating take.

Let me explain something that seems to escape most people on this site.

We like broke shit when it has nuance and counterplay that extends beyond "don't get hit" or just guess. The Quan vortex was dumb because there was no counterplay to it, but the Firestorm vortex was fine, was pretty seeable in the opinion of a lot of high level players and was completely shut down by push blocking. It gave Firestorm personality, something to be scared of, but you had a way to shut it down and his neutral was sus.

Batman having a vortex was dumb because he had all of his tools ON TOP of it. If he'd been built entirely around the vortex and didn't have mech bats he'd be perfectly fine.

The auto-shimmy/oki throw/fast mid RPS in this game has no counterplay. It's a straight guess. That's not enjoyable to anybody, either on the offender or defenders side. The fact for most characters that it perpetually loops into itself adds to the annoyance of it. I'm really tired of this bullshit red herring argument.

People dislike MK11 because everyones broke shit is the exact same thing and it stems from rudimentary decisions. The broke shit isn't unique, it doesn't have solid definitive counterplay that the opponent has to work around or break you via conditioning. Even MKX had this in it's last patch and Inj2 certainly had that all it's life regardless of what individual character balance disparities there were.

Also, the game punishes people for having whiff and block punishment knowledge down due to breakaway and just reinforces this boring auto shimmy/oki throw/mid RPS even more and penalizes the characters who don't play that game, thus rendering the game lacking in diversity and boring af.

I don't see how people on this site are so lacking in nuance that they're unable to see this.

Also:

Every Superman did f23 breath.
Every Atrocitus did blockstring vomit
Every Dr. Fate did Blockstring push
Every Batman did blockstring mb up batarang

And that's before you got to the many auto pilot d1 special move game most of the cast had. Such nuance bro!

 

[Chernyy Volk]

You just said a whole bunch of words only for me to tell you that most of the broke shit in I2 came down to guess overhead/low or left right, sometimes both.

And everyone complained about it and couldn't wait for I2 to die.

I mean, only scrubs and mid tier players complained in the legit complaining sense. It was fun to be like "yo Firestorm vortex is fucked up" but not a single one of us wanted it actually removed from the game. At least in the circles I hung in.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Also:

Every Superman did f23 breath.
Every Atrocitus did blockstring vomit
Every Dr. Fate did Blockstring push
Every Batman did blockstring mb up batarang

And that's before you got to the many auto pilot d1 special move game most of the cast had. Such nuance bro!

Superman was more than f23 breath come on bro, you're not this reductionist.

There were still tons of nuanced mind games based on spacing, hitbox/hurtbox interactions etc EVEN AGAINST BATMAN. In MK11 characters just have one or two tools they shove down your throat and there's no MU knowledge or nuance required. I just do not see how this can just go over peoples heads.