Hot Take: Third variations will have little to no effect on the meta

[M2Dave]

this thread hasn't aged well.

Neither has your ability to cherry pick results. I assume the two tournaments below allowed third variations as they took place after the patch. The results speak for themselves.

Brazil Game Show (10/13)

1. NASR|TekkenMaster (Sonya, Geras)
2. DizzyTT (Sonya)
3. GOD|KillerXinok (Baraka, Geras, Nightwolf)
4. TF|Konqueror249 (Sub-Zero)
5. Shodown|GuiExceptional (Scorpion)
6. AOP|Mr. Bruno (Sonya)
7. uB|Kcd117 (Shang Tsung, Noob Saibot)
8. BH|Eternal_xld (Geras, Nightwolf, Sonya)

Ultimate Fighting Game Arena (10/06)

1. VideoGamezYo (Shao Khan, Nightwolf)
2. DizzyTT (Sonya)
3. Crathen (Noob Saibot)
4. IrishMantis (Johnny Cage)
5. Zoro (Nightwolf, Baraka)
6. TheReverse25 (Geras)
7. VGIA|Fasoll (Kung Lao)
8. NASR|SharkTeeth (Baraka, Erron Black)

ECT 2019 has been a pleasure to watch because of diversity in characters and variations, but the tournament is still in progress. We will see which characters and variations players will choose when their backs are against the wall.

 

[kcd117]

I don't think many of them where on stream, so that makes sense. I only seen one on stream.

Ps do you have an XB1?

Only PS4, unfortunately.

 

[kcd117]

Neither has your ability to cherry pick results. I assume the two tournaments below allowed third variations as they took place after the patch. The results speak for themselves.

Brazil Game Show (10/13)

1. NASR|TekkenMaster (Sonya, Geras)
2. DizzyTT (Sonya)
3. GOD|KillerXinok (Baraka, Geras, Nightwolf)
4. TF|Konqueror249 (Sub-Zero)
5. Shodown|GuiExceptional (Scorpion)
6. AOP|Mr. Bruno (Sonya)
7. uB|Kcd117 (Shang Tsung, Noob Saibot)
8. BH|Eternal_xld (Geras, Nightwolf, Sonya)

Ultimate Fighting Game Arena (10/06)

1. VideoGamezYo (Shao Khan, Nightwolf)
2. DizzyTT (Sonya)
3. Crathen (Noob Saibot)
4. IrishMantis (Johnny Cage)
5. Zoro (Nightwolf, Baraka)
6. TheReverse25 (Geras)
7. VGIA|Fasoll (Kung Lao)
8. NASR|SharkTeeth (Baraka, Erron Black)

ECT 2019 has been a pleasure to watch because of diversity in characters and variations, but the tournament is still in progress. We will see which characters and variations players will choose when their backs are against the wall.

We could not use V3 at BGS. I wish I could have played Buluc and Outtake .

 

[Jynks]

I assume the two tournaments below allowed third variations as they took place after the patch.

I thought ECT was the 1st time v3 was legal?

 

[M2Dave]

I thought ECT was the 1st time v3 was legal?

Even so, the use of third variations has been heavily exaggerated in this thread. HobbyGamer has uploaded every streamed pool match with time stamps. I reviewed most matches and checked for used variations and I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of players used the same variation that they had used in the previous version of the game. A couple of exceptions are Frost, who is a surprise, and Johnny Cage, who everyone but some in the TYM Johnny Cage forum thinks has a very good third variation.

For reference, or simply viewing pleasure, here are all the streamed pool matches.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Even so, the use of third variations has been heavily exaggerated in this thread

I don't think its been that exaggerated. Its natural for players to stick with what they know.
3rd variations have been used quite a bit in ECT but most where not streamed.
Frost AA was definitely dominate with Tweedy and HeyGeorge. Its a variation that is no doubt better than previous vars.
So is Kabal Speed Demon which was seen alot.
Laos 3rd was used by a few and we can't forget all the 1&2 variations that got changes make sure ng them better like Lotus Fist, Buluc, Ascension, Jaded/Untamable(?).
I think I even seen Geras, Sonya, Baraka's, Jacqui, Shang's 3rds pop up in ECT

the rest was just a couple here and there but that's to be expected being the first big major legalizing them. Many are making the argument they shouldn't have allowed 3rds.

3rd variations will definitely have an impact on the game and competitive play. We just need some time to let it evolve.
Most of the variations are decent. I don't think they have to be Top Tier to be effective, "Its OK To Be Mid Tier" but there are a few bad variations but that's to be expected. We can't ask for unique fun characters without having some struggle unless we want every character to function exactly the same way which would be incredibly boring.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1185783500919709696

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Disagree. People having zoning/spacing varations where they did not is potentially a big deal for certain matchups. People having teleports, etc. is also a big potential factor for MUs.

And there are already certain communities speculating that certain 3rd variations might end up being some of the stronger ones, including my own community (Jacqui Briggs).

Dave, you're jumping to conclusions here, as is your style..

Just gonna leave this here

 

[Tony at Home]

Even so, the use of third variations has been heavily exaggerated in this thread. HobbyGamer has uploaded every streamed pool match with time stamps. I reviewed most matches and checked for used variations and I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of players used the same variation that they had used in the previous version of the game. A couple of exceptions are Frost, who is a surprise, and Johnny Cage, who everyone but some in the TYM Johnny Cage forum thinks has a very good third variation.

For reference, or simply viewing pleasure, here are all the streamed pool matches.

You just did a Podcast that featured Tom Brady screaming a monologue about how only the top 10 or so characters could compete and we just had two tournaments in a row that proved otherwise.

Stop your theory fighting please.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Even so, the use of third variations has been heavily exaggerated in this thread. HobbyGamer has uploaded every streamed pool match with time stamps. I reviewed most matches and checked for used variations and I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of players used the same variation that they had used in the previous version of the game. A couple of exceptions are Frost, who is a surprise, and Johnny Cage, who everyone but some in the TYM Johnny Cage forum thinks has a very good third variation.

For reference, or simply viewing pleasure, here are all the streamed pool matches.

I didn't even watch the tournament in full, but these are the 3rd variations I saw take important scalps today:
Frost
Jacuqi (2 different players playing Upgraded)
Geras (Kombat plays Eternal)
Cage
And there are a few more

You're omitting information here because it doesn't suit your original argument.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If Sonic wins this tournament with a 3rd variation Dave and his 'hot take' buddy P2W are going to be eternally on blast.

 

[Afk Skinny]

If Sonic wins this tournament with a 3rd variation Dave and his 'hot take' buddy P2W are going to be eternally on blast.

He won with Jaded. Does that count?

 

[DarksydeDash]

Johnny Cage says hi, Dave.

 

[FonicSox]

Sonic could random select and sneeze on his pad and make top 3, before and after variation patch. Tournament meta doesn't appear to have changed much. It's still early though.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Sonic could random select and sneeze on his pad and make top 3, before and after variation patch. Tournament meta doesn't appear to have changed much. It's still early though.

In actuality Sonic was aided by two things:

1) The meta has evolved to the point where people now recognize Cage as a valid foil for Liu Kang's buttons. That's not a result of the added variations, but it is a definite repudiation of everyone who said the game was 'figured out' one month in.

2) Sonic specifically used Cage's 3rd variation against Cetrion and neutralize her zoning, which is pretty much exactly what I predicted would happen -- people would start to use 3rd variation tools to gain MU-specific advantages, even if they don't play that variation 100% of the time.

I don't think we can overlook the fact that the game is still evolving, and with 3rd variations in play we've now already seen significant impact at the first major US tourney that allows them. I think it's pretty safe to say there's more in store.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

In actuality Sonic was aided by two things:

1) The meta has evolved to the point where people now recognize Cage as a valid foil for Liu Kang's buttons. That's not a result of the added variations, but it is a definite repudiation of everyone who said the game was 'figured out' one month in.

2) Sonic specifically used Cage's 3rd variation again Cetrion and neutralize her zoning, which is pretty much exactly what I predicted would happen -- people would start to use 3rd variation tools to gain MU-specific advantages, even if they don't play that variation 100% of the time.

I don't think we can overlook the fact that the game is still evolving, and with 3rd variations in play we've now already seen significant impact at the first major US tourney that allows them. I think it's pretty safe to say there's more in store.

Now if only there weren't any 3rd variations that are utterly useless (Kollector, noob to think of a couple)

 

[M2Dave]

Now if only there weren't any 3rd variations that are utterly useless (Kollector, noob to think of a couple)

Thank you (and several others) for having the mental capacity to follow the simple argument in the initial post of this thread.

The fact that a handful of third variations are tournament viable does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of third variations are worthless.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Now if only there weren't any 3rd variations that are utterly useless (Kollector, noob to think of a couple)

Yeah, it's the first patch. They will obviously continue to buff variations like they have with a number of the game's lesser-used variations that received adjustments in previous patches.

 

[Juggs]

Tbh, the 3rd variations only made a few characters more viable. Especially JC and Frost. The other viable v3’s are from characters that were already really good anyway. But I guess we will see how play progresses, still relatively early.

 

[Jynks]

I thought variation 3 had a huge impact on ECT. There was a lot of people running v3 as a main. Kabal.v3 was all we saw for example, and Frost.v3 was also pretty much the main version. Cage.v3 was used all the way through into Grand Finals. Kano.v3 was also seen a ton.

We also saw new meta counter picks using v3 like Shang.v3 vs hi mobility characters using the ermac lift to shut them down and a lot more... and a new hard counter with JC vs Cetrion. We saw absolute bonkers "Blue Balls" Jaquie play as well. I am convinced that will end up a go to variation after people get more into it.

AND this was event 1 with the v3 available... so I think it would be an easy guess to assume that we will see more v3 as people get more into it.

It seems to me like v3 was all over this event, and not only that really changed a lot of matchups and also effected top 8 and grand finals in a major way.

Tbh, the 3rd variations only made a few characters more viable. Especially JC and Frost. The other viable v3’s are from characters that were already really good anyway. But I guess we will see how play progresses, still relatively early.

I do not think it is about making them "more" viable.. than other variations... the variation itself just needs to be viable, in a vacuum so to speak. We saw a lot of v3 counter picking to make a character better at dealing with another character with out a roster slot change... and I think this is the main goal of variations actually.

It seems to me that v3 was all over the competition and as you say it is super early still, so I expect it will get even more mixed.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

We also saw new meta counter picks using v3 like Shang.v3 vs hi mobility characters using the ermac lift to shut them down and a lot more... and a new hard counter with JC vs Cetrion. We saw absolute bonkers "Blue Balls" Jaquie play as well. I am convinced that will end up a go to variation after people get more into it.

Yup, bingo. This is the thing I was talking about that a lot of people seem to have missed.

Even if a 3rd variation doesn't become the go-to that's used in every MU, it can still alter the meta by giving characters tools they didn't previously have to shut down (or at least better handle) a specific playstyle.

 

[spidey300]

The character that showed off the most was Johnny and would you look at that. The heavily talked about outtake was overshadowed by shock jock. Y'all make it sound like variation 3s were just running wild in top 8

 

[dribirut]

I don’t get what the big aha moment was?.. obviously if you add 30+ variations into the game 3-4 will naturally be good and used. How does that change the fact that 80% of them are completely useless..

To be fair, saying that they would have 0% impact on meta is definitely too much

 

[sub_on_dubs]

M2Dave wrong again? Cant say that I'm surprised.

 

[Error404]

14 out of 28 characters have viable 3rd variations. It's not "the vast majority" that aren't good.

 

[MadPropz101]

I was never to keen on the variation system but I think MK11 does ir much better than MKX, most characters actually have a couple of variationa that are viable and fun to play.