Hot Take: Third variations will have little to no effect on the meta

[Edmund]

I think that the majority (which is why the majority weren't shown) will actually have an impact.

This is, of course, assuming that these custom moves did not receive buffs. I don't see, for example, Jade's being used because she loses glow, doesn't have the ranged projectiles that are used in defender, and she doesn't have any close range threats (her B2 and 3 combo extensions are both high starters). Also Skarlet, gains boiling point which is horribly slow, but it does do decent damage and hits low, but I don't see anyone picking it because she loses tentacle and has no true reason to be upclose other than her .5% DOT ability

 

[Trustful_Whale]

I feel like I'm just watching reruns now.
We're still really just skipping over the part where they're rebalancing these moves for their new variations, even going as far as giving people new KBs?

Nah, nevermind, it's all shit.

 

[Marinjuana]

I don't love the variation system but I challenge the idea that a variation is irrelevant because another variation from the same character is stronger.

Take Noob's Seeing Double and Dark Sabbath for example, and for sake of argument, let's just say Dark Sabbath is much better overall. Maybe a Noob fan just wants to play the variation that gives them the best chance to win, but maybe other players are drawn to the weaker variation because they enjoy the space control aspect of Seeing Double. Not every variation is like this, but this is a case of two variations that offer much different play styles.

You might say something like, "Why play weaker variation with that style when I can play top tier who is better?" This isn't Tekken 7 or Guilty Gear with crazy execution requirements and whatnot, if you want to pick up another character, it's not that hard to do so. Why play anyone but the best character? Well, people tend to play characters they like, and when done right, the variation system can give us variety. I would still prefer to have more fleshed out single characters, but you also wouldn't get something like "rushdown Jade" vs "zoner Jade".

 

[Eddy Wang]

I don't think Skarlet is going to benefict at all from this either, in fact the new variation might actually be her worst yet
No safe cancels because no tentacle, strings still full of gaps
the new moves super slow and super negative on block.
If she doesn't has a major overhaul on her data alone, slamming those moves no no matter if made faster as long as they are still unsafe i don't think it will be better than her previous 2 variations currently

 

[Edmund]

What characters will benefit?

I see Kitana's third variation (fearless) being used because of mixups with her low fan and the KB on the twist.

Jacqui's will be used for sure, the question is will it be better than her current two?

Who is legitimately excited for their character's variation?

 

[Bucketfeet]

Double edged sword for me. While I'm looking forward to playing with new variations for my characters, I'm also not looking forward to relearning matchups against the 3rd variation of all the characters I don't play.

 

[GLoRToR]

The lesson learned from Mortal Kombat X is that the variation system does not work. Players choose the same variation 90% of the time. Only a handful of characters have a second variation that is worth using in certain match ups. The problem is that by choosing the secondary or tertiary variation you almost almost give up your best special move. I predict that this problem will also remain in Mortal Kombat 11.

Shang Tsung, for example, has all the ninja special moves in his third variation. The problem is that none of these moves are as good as the ground eruption or the corpse drop, both of which he loses. The shake is admittedly one of the best anti-zoning tools in the game, but the ninja moves are not as complementary to the shake as the ground eruption and the corpse drop would be. So I theorize that this variation will be inferior to Warlock, especially once players learn to fuzzy guard the b+1,d+2 / EX slide mix up. Shang Tsung is my main character, but he is only one example. I have talked to several other players who feel the same way about their main character's third variation as I do about Shang Tsung's.

I am genuinely more excited about universal and character specific changes than I am about the third variations. Adjustments such as Jax's fatal blow hitting high and Liu Kang's f+4 being slowed down by two frames will actually have an impact on the meta unlike some of these third variations which will likely never be seen in tournament play.

What do you think? Vote in the poll and/or comment in this thread.

So are you saying that
Third variations are Abysmal?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Disagree. People having zoning/spacing varations where they did not is potentially a big deal for certain matchups. People having teleports, etc. is also a big potential factor for MUs.

And there are already certain communities speculating that certain 3rd variations might end up being some of the stronger ones, including my own community (Jacqui Briggs).

Dave, you're jumping to conclusions here, as is your style (remember 'Cetrion will be weak soon because flawless blocking the wall will ruin her footsie-ranged offense'?), but I think 1) It's far too early to tell and 2) I wouldn't be surprised to see these variations making an impact within a month's time, either as a limited MU counterpick or as a fullblown flagship variation in some cases.

 

[SattP PSN]

I mentioned this on Discord but I think with the third variations rolling out the next patch will be something that has to address universal buttons on characters more in depth as well as tweaking some underused variations.

The last patch played a lot of its changes fairly safely focusing more on under served variations and some jailing off of pokes stuff. With a third variation no longer looming on the horizon once all three variations for everyone have some miles put on them I think we'll see some more drastic frame changes for everyone with some abilities getting tweaked here and there to make sure no variation is getting left in the dust.

This could be super naive of me but this is a roundabout way of saying I mostly agree that the variations likely won't change how the game is played but it opens the door to some real changes that might. That's not to say there aren't some variations that may elevate some characters a little on the tier lists since it's better than their current offerings but I doubt a lot of them significantly move the needle. A whole lot depends on what the tweaks to these abilities were as well as any other little adjustments they make that may have huge impacts.

 

[kantboy-2]

Snakebite can be cancelled into with Manhandled's F4, leaves knives in the opponent for DoT with Bio-Trap or additional damage with Bio-Pull.

But guess what? THEY CAN'T BE USED TOGETHER IN A TOURNAMENT SETTING.

No, the meta won't change at all. It's like the designers and the variation makers don't work in the same building.

 

[GLoRToR]

The lesson learned from Mortal Kombat X is that the variation system does not work. Players choose the same variation 90% of the time. Only a handful of characters have a second variation that is worth using in certain match ups. The problem is that by choosing the secondary or tertiary variation you almost almost give up your best special move. I predict that this problem will also remain in Mortal Kombat 11.

Shang Tsung, for example, has all the ninja special moves in his third variation. The problem is that none of these moves are as good as the ground eruption or the corpse drop, both of which he loses. The shake is admittedly one of the best anti-zoning tools in the game, but the ninja moves are not as complementary to the shake as the ground eruption and the corpse drop would be. So I theorize that this variation will be inferior to Warlock, especially once players learn to fuzzy guard the b+1,d+2 / EX slide mix up. Shang Tsung is my main character, but he is only one example. I have talked to several other players who feel the same way about their main character's third variation as I do about Shang Tsung's.

I am genuinely more excited about universal and character specific changes than I am about the third variations. Adjustments such as Jax's fatal blow hitting high and Liu Kang's f+4 being slowed down by two frames will actually have an impact on the meta unlike some of these third variations which will likely never be seen in tournament play.

What do you think? Vote in the poll and/or comment in this thread.

Here's a more serious response from me, though.

As I've said numerous times before, the variation system is a selling point much like the several "guest characters". It's no surprise to anyone that the more variables you put into an equation the harder the math will be. It's a literal game development nightmare to make all these characters balanced and so far so good if you ask me. Yeah, Geras Liu Sonya Erron and Kabal are a little more balanced than how balanced the rest of the cast is (read, they're ridiculous) and Scorpion's Air Teleport is the same as Teleport while several characters on the roster need to take a slot / entire variation for air moves that aren't even footsie-avoiding launchers, but let's be honest: mk11 is only frustrating if you don't play top 5-10. You can pick any of the above, Cassie, Cetrion, or hell even Frost to do fairly well. It's your fault if you play a Kahn, Jade, Kano etc and not having fun.

Adding more variations will just further complicate the meta but it will not be as impactful as people would like to think. All it will do is the weaker characters will have more shit to worry about while the stronger characters will still just romp the fuck out of everything on basis of far reaching mid lowcrushing launchers, fullscreen lows and the works.

Yeah, if you want to take this game seriously, it will be bad.

But pretty much nobody does at this point.

 

[M2Dave]

Dave, you're jumping to conclusions here, as is your style (remember 'Cetrion will be weak soon because flawless blocking the wall will ruin her footsie-ranged offense'?)...

No, I do not remember because I do not recall using the verb "ruined". If anything at all, I asked Cetrion players to be patient and continue labbing when the majority of them thought she was trash upon release.

As far as your point about zoning, spacing, and teleport variations is concerned, such variations have little to no impact on the meta as they get out-zoned by the top tier rush down characters like Geras and Sonya, who are also superior up close.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

As far as your point about zoning, spacing, and teleport variations is concerned, such variations have little to no impact on the meta as they get out-zoned by the top tier rush down characters like Geras and Sonya, who are also superior up close.

That doesn't preclude them from being used in other MUs, though. A variation which might not be useful against Sonya, Geras or Liu might be useful against multiple other characters.

With regard to Cetrion, the exact phrase you used was "She will struggle".

 

[DarksydeDash]

Kotal and Kano have the potential to be really good now, like it's actually insane how hard Kotal is to kill if he has the defense totems up. Keep in mind he has the highest health too.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Snakebite can be cancelled into with Manhandled's F4, leaves knives in the opponent for DoT with Bio-Trap or additional damage with Bio-Pull.

But guess what? THEY CAN'T BE USED TOGETHER IN A TOURNAMENT SETTING.

No, the meta won't change at all. It's like the designers and the variation makers don't work in the same building.

if he had snakebite and the poison thing in one variation he would be a lot of fun. the d1 poison being an amazing defensive tool and snakebite for big punish damage.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

That doesn't preclude them from being used in other MUs, though. A variation which might not be useful against Sonya, Geras or Liu might be useful against multiple other characters.

With regard to Cetrion, the exact phrase you used was "She will struggle".

As always crimson missing the point and shamelessly shilling for NRS and not providing a single objective example. He even used, "Jacqui community thinks..." speculation as an example to refute the main point.

The strongest characters will still be the strongest. Maybe a few variation 3's will matter but they will still not be geras or kang.

 

[Rude]

On today's episode of, "Old man yells at sky...."

 

[CrimsonShadow]

As always crimson missing the point and shamelessly shilling for NRS and not providing a single objective example. He even used, "Jacqui community thinks..." speculation as an example to refute the main point.

The strongest characters will still be the strongest. Maybe a few variation 3's will matter but they will still not be geras or kang.

I'm not sure how pointing out that some specific tools given in 3rd variations (like teleports and ranged/zoning options) might change some MUs or provide additional counterpick options has anything to do with NRS at all. This is starting to look schizophrenic on your part.

This is day -5 of the patch and you're already calling anyone who disagrees with you a shill. Calm down.

 

[colby4898]

The meta will always be throw/mid unless theres a radical change to the game.

 

[colby4898]

I don't love the variation system but I challenge the idea that a variation is irrelevant because another variation from the same character is stronger.

Take Noob's Seeing Double and Dark Sabbath for example, and for sake of argument, let's just say Dark Sabbath is much better overall. Maybe a Noob fan just wants to play the variation that gives them the best chance to win, but maybe other players are drawn to the weaker variation because they enjoy the space control aspect of Seeing Double. Not every variation is like this, but this is a case of two variations that offer much different play styles.

You might say something like, "Why play weaker variation with that style when I can play top tier who is better?" This isn't Tekken 7 or Guilty Gear with crazy execution requirements and whatnot, if you want to pick up another character, it's not that hard to do so. Why play anyone but the best character? Well, people tend to play characters they like, and when done right, the variation system can give us variety. I would still prefer to have more fleshed out single characters, but you also wouldn't get something like "rushdown Jade" vs "zoner Jade".

The whole argument of "one variation is stronger so variations system is bad" dumbfounds me. It's the same as saying "this character is the best in the game so why use another"... erm becuase they enjoy it? A tiny fraction of the player base is competitive. NRS already made a mistake by trying to make this game "better" competitively and in turn have created a dull game. They need more of this quirky stuff. That's why people enjoy Mk.

 

[M2Dave]

That doesn't preclude them from being used in other MUs, though. A variation which might not be useful against Sonya, Geras or Liu might be useful against multiple other characters.

In theory yes. In practice no. History (Mortal Kombat X) says otherwise. The vast majority of Mortal Kombat 11's second variation say otherwise. Why would these third variations be any different?

As for my statement on Cetrion, I said something to the extent of "She will struggle if tournament players can flawless block the wall consistently". Well, apparently they cannot. Besides, I have no idea why you are so persistent about this irrelevant statement. I know you love to discredit and argue with anyone who criticizes NRS in the slightest, but my recent hot takes have been fair and well-reserved.

 

[dribirut]

I’m starting to think that at this point, the game is almost unfixable. It is paaaaainnfully obvious the game was rushed. The variation system was soooooo poorly implemented in this game. So you’re going to tell me that they were able to implement a strong 3 variation system for mkx but that was not possible for mk11??

The characters are sooo dull in this game. I mean just look at sub zero.. two generic as fuck special moves.. like wtf..

I really really hope they shut me up with this new patch but it’s looking doubtful. It’s a real shame because the core mechanics of the game although not perfect, are imo the best out of any nrs game..

 

[CrimsonShadow]

In theory yes. In practice no. History (Mortal Kombat X) says otherwise. The vast majority of Mortal Kombat 11's second variation say otherwise. Why would these third variations be any different?

As for my statement on Cetrion, I said something to the extent of "She will struggle if tournament players can flawless block the wall consistently". Well, apparently they cannot. Besides, I have no idea why you are so persistent about this irrelevant statement. I know you love to discredit and argue with anyone who criticizes NRS in the slightest, but my recent hot takes have been fair and well-reserved.

Just pointing out the dangers of jumping to massive conclusions as early Day -5 of a patch. We had this same discussion when you said "We already know who all the top characters are" in Week 3 when people were putting Sub-Zero and Scorpion in the S-tier slot and Cetrion was hardly mentioned.

What does that have to do with NRS

 

[Daemantalo]

Kano can dish out a lot of damage with Snakebite now, but I fall in line with the thinking of REO from what he thinks on Erron Black: Kano already has his 2 solid variations that synergize VERY well. Eye blast and Snakebite is pretty much thrown together. A 24 frame mid projectile that does 5% is not going to be effective or synergize with Snakebite.

Cetrion’s 3rd variation is just plain bad. Let me choose my buff.

Scorpion’s Misery Blade will drastically change his playstyle.

Different prospectives on this. For some characters the third variation is beautiful. For some it’s irrelevant. I’m mixed on this.

 

[Vslayer]

How can it not change the meta? We'll see characters being played much differently, we may find a hard counter for someone that wasn't there before. It's so useless to try and imagine how things are gonna be when we 1) still don't have the patch notes so we don't know all the frame data changes, 2) no one knows how the new variations are going to be played because of that.

However, for characters like Kano who has no new abilities, and without frame data changes, then yeah it's a useless variation. But again, we still don't know, they may change some things around.