Hot Take: Third variations will have little to no effect on the meta

[M2Dave]

This game's mix ups are nothing like Quan Chi's. Not even in principle.

Absurd comparison.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

A read is counterplay. It's literally half the counterplay in fighting games. Which was part of his point -- we're acting like having to make a read is untenable. If someone is close enough to throw you than you've already lost the neutral, and now you need to make a read on what they'll do.

If you get thrown, and you don't tech it, in most cases you eat 14% and the neutral is reset. There are a couple of exceptions, but saying it's the same as Summoner Quan is completely bananas.

The more dialogue I look at on here the more I realize the perception of this game in heavy competitive circles is entirely different than how enthusiasts perceive it. It's actually crazy. It's not a knock at you at all, but shit changes perception wise when it comes down to "Money/my sponsorship/my pride" is on the line. If you really think just taking the throw is as simple as that I'm not sure what to tell you. 80% of this cast throw loops whether it be due to natural positioning or by having wave dashes down. You can't just "take" the throw against Liu, or against even Sub who can literally run up pressure you after back throw if they have wave dashing down. KB throws exacerbate this problem even further. I dunno man, people just don't find that fun. FG's that are totally based off hard reads for EVERY DECISION typically aren't very enjoyable for competition from what I see and hear. I personally don't dig it either.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

This game's mix ups are nothing like Quan Chi's. Not even in principle.

Absurd comparison.

You're also missing the point Dave. Stop comparing shit to other games. Quan Chi in MKX is irrelevant to how MK11 plays and how the top tiers play.

 

[M2Dave]

You're also missing the point Dave. Stop comparing shit to other games. Quan Chi in MKX is irrelevant to how MK11 plays and how the top tiers play.

I am not comparing anyone or anything. You are the one who initially mentioned Quan Chi when he has no reason to be compared to anyone or anything in Mortal Kombat 11.

Quan Chi has a safe overhead and a safe low that can be canceled into a safe launcher, or an advantageous launcher pre-patch, that leads to a damaging reset combo. Nothing in Mortal Kombat 11 is comparable. If any comparison is to be made at all, Mortal Kombat 11 is similar to Street Fighter 5 with the strike and throw mix up.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The more dialogue I look at on here the more I realize the perception of this game in heavy competitive circles is entirely different than how enthusiasts perceive it. It's actually crazy. It's not a knock at you at all, but shit changes perception wise when it comes down to "Money/my sponsorship/my pride" is on the line. If you really think just taking the throw is as simple as that I'm not sure what to tell you. 80% of this cast throw loops whether it be due to natural positioning or by having wave dashes down. You can't just "take" the throw against Liu, or against even Sub who can literally run up pressure you after back throw if they have wave dashing down. KB throws exacerbate this problem even further. I dunno man, people just don't find that fun. FG's that are totally based off hard reads for EVERY DECISION typically aren't very enjoyable for competition from what I see and hear. I personally don't dig it either.

But it's like.. This game would be far more based off hard reads if we had the traditional oki setups, ambiguous crossups, etc. that you have in a normal 2d fighting game.

I understand you.. But if you don't like having to make reads here, how could you play Street Fighter, DBFZ, or pretty much any fighting game that works on that plane? You're complaining about strike vs. throw when that's basically the kid gloves of 'mixup' in a FG.

 

[kcd117]

Every fighting game has tool disparity amongst it's characters i.e. your character can do something mine can't. That's not new. Some characters are good, some characters won't be very good. Such is life.

I'm not mixing criticisms at all. Everyone complained about how over the top strong offensive options were in those games and everyone wanted it toned down. Well, now it is. Now the community is crying crocodile tears over strike/grab mix ups. It's ridiculous.

I have said this many times before and I believe this to be true: No one actually knows what they want. They only think they do.

The problem here is that if you don’t have a good safe mid or tools to make people respect your highs you can’t play the strike/throw meta, and if your character can’t play it he literally sucks at MK11. There is literally one single formula for a character to be good at this game and it plays the exact same way for everyone bc the nature of the riskless movement and dumb jump attacks makes 90% of the games be played at jump distance or closer and be decided in strike/throw situations.

If you watch top players that play multiple characters play this game rn you’ll notice they play the same way across multiple charcters. F0xy’s Shang has the same gameplan as his Nightwolf, that has the same gameplan as his Sub, that has the same gamplan as his cassie, that plays just like his Lao. Rewind’s Jax, Liu and Jacqui play exaclty the same up close. Tekken Master’s Erron, Geras and Sonya.

Strike/throw mixups are fine by its definition but the way they are applied in this game, where you can dash cancel or jump at people and commit to a safe mid or throw for free, the mixup puts you in a constant blender that wouldn’t be possible if walking was the main way of moving. When you factor in 9 frame mids, throw loops, auto-shimmies and throw KBs you have a very MKXish experience, specially against the top tiers.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

The problem here is that if you don’t have a good safe mid or tools to make people respect your highs you can’t play the strike/throw meta, and if your character can’t play it he literally sucks at MK11. There is literally one single formula for a character to be good at this game and it plays the exact same way for everyone bc the nature of the riskless movement and dumb jump attacks makes 90% of the games be played at jump distance or closer and be decided in strike/throw situations.

If you watch top players that play multiple characters play this game rn you’ll notice they play the same way across multiple charcters. F0xy’s Shang has the same gameplan as his Nightwolf, that has the same gameplan as his Sub, that has the same gamplan as his cassie, that plays just like his Lao. Rewind’s Jax, Liu and Jacqui play exaclty the same up close. Tekken Master’s Erron, Geras and Sonya.

Strike/throw mixups are fine by its definition but the way they are applied in this game, where you can dash cancel or jump at people and commit to a safe mid or throw for free, the mixup puts you in a constant blender that wouldn’t be possible if walking was the main way of moving. When you factor in 9 frame mids, throw loops, auto-shimmies and throw KBs you have a very MKXish experience, specially against the top tiers.

Thank you. I'm not sure how this is escaping people.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Honestly I'm starting to believe Injustice is where you go for a varied deep FG experience for NRS. This is the second game we've had where everyone plays the exact same meta and your character is decided by that in an MK game.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Another hot take: water is wet.

 

[Rude]

I mean, only scrubs and mid tier players complained in the legit complaining sense. It was fun to be like "yo Firestorm vortex is fucked up" but not a single one of us wanted it actually removed from the game. At least in the circles I hung in.

Top players constantly talked about how flowchart and unfun it was, and how they were only playing until the Pro Season was over. Pro Season ended and....

At least the players I followed and remember, I like I2 but it was not this Honest Man's, Footsies And Nothing Else Game that nostalgia makes it out to be.

 

[Rude]

Superman was more than f23 breath come on bro, you're not this reductionist.

There were still tons of nuanced mind games based on spacing, hitbox/hurtbox interactions etc EVEN AGAINST BATMAN. In MK11 characters just have one or two tools they shove down your throat and there's no MU knowledge or nuance required. I just do not see how this can just go over peoples heads.

Batman made you guess. I was a Batman main and he made you guess. You guessed on the vortex. You guess if he'd go for the guaranteed f2 after mb up batarang and once you respected that he'd dash in and apply the guessing game again. You could pushback, but every good Batman had trait saved up.

Atrocitus vomit after blockstrings was hella auto-shimmy. In fact, Dragon was so afraid when Cat was out that Coach Steve could just walk up to him unchallenged. Such nuance.

It's okay to not like MK11, but at some point you've got to admit your bias. You see both games through the eyes of your mains. Manta had a lot of pressure options, but he was the exception, not the rule. Most of the really creative characters were lower tier while the most straightforward characters like Black Adam and Aquaman were successful. Remember the Aquaman mirror EVO Grand Finals? Pepperidge Farm remembers.

I also call bullshit on your Firestorm revisionist history. As soon as the vortex was found, Twitter was alive with the sounds of Top Players talking about how fucked up it was. You just don't want to remember it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Rude]

Honestly I'm starting to believe Injustice is where you go for a varied deep FG experience for NRS. This is the second game we've had where everyone plays the exact same meta and your character is decided by that in an MK game.

Tfw I2 had unblockable explosive intractables that launched and repeated use, armored corner escapes and plus on block corner divekicks. Several unblockable interactables on giant stages where characters that had incredibly strong keep away like Starfire and Fate.

Unblockable launching bomb = nuance.

 

[Jynks]

I think this is pretty carzy thread. A classic M2Dave!

We do not know what the meat will bring, but I would bet cash right now that we see 3rd variations in the next major they are legal in. Even if we discount roster slots like Kitana that will probably have their 3rd variation become the standard.

 

[B. Shazzy]

lul we all know cherny ragequits, so he doesnt like the game. he even rqs games he likes. But Rude also ragequits the game he’s apprarently willing to die for too. Any nrs game he plays contrarian to whatever people complain about.

These two are basically the same in their actions, just different in their words. who has more credibility lul

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Honestly I'm starting to believe Injustice is where you go for a varied deep FG experience for NRS. This is the second game we've had where everyone plays the exact same meta and your character is decided by that in an MK game.

It's an interesting issue, though. Because Injustice's meta is very polarizing, mainly because of the difficulty in balancing the different groups of playstyles.

Like we went through a whole meta where zoning was incredibly strong, and that made it difficult for non-zoners who just wanted to get in and play their game.

If you give everyone the tools to deal with everyone else (even though the game will never be perfectly balanced), then at least you know you are playing your game much of the time, and it's just about who plays it better. That's closer to a game like Tekken than something like Injustice.

I can't say which is best, but you can guarantee that you're making a tradeoff either way. The more wacky playstyles you have, the more characters will succumb to individual matchups that are terrible.

 

[Komatose]

REO said multiple times it's irrelevant what they do with Erron Black bc the combination of moves won't be better than 52 pickup.

Its all contingent on actual changes to existing moves or new moves themselves, like what happened with Noob's Seeing Double slide. Got faster, got launching ability, got easier access to the KB.

More to your point, the variation system is inherently unbalanced because it also limits KB's to certain variations for certain characters. No fucking way you get the shadow KB with Dark Sabbath. And Kollector's chakram KB is impossible to get in his two existing variations right now. Then we have characters like the champion who has 5 or 6 KB's locked and loaded in 1 variation.

I don't think the meta changes at all, and yeah agree variations suck.

This in a nutshell.

 

[versavices]

They really need to add 1-2 of these custom moves to each characters base moveset. I think it would open up more playstyles for the whole cast. Also not a fan of customs that replace a move. Unless it's a clear improvement I don't see how you could ever justify it being worth a slot.

Never forget, one of the percs of Thin Ice was that it had a BASELINE move that was better than the custom move that replaced it in Dead of Winter. (Cold Shoulder) There is something gravely wrong with this.

 

[trufenix]

20 new characters added over night and no effect on the meta? Sure. That sounds like its ever happened before.

 

[cavemold]

i think that will be true for some charcters like baraka,raiden, lui kang

 

[M2Dave]

The hot takes continue...

Winners:

• Geras for having a seemingly good third variation
• Liu Kang for having a seemingly good third variation
• Kitana for receiving major buffs

Losers:

• everyone else, especially Kollector, for having a bad third variation and/or receiving major nerfs on moves in the third variation

So the rich, Geras and Liu Kang, got richer. Kitana, who was making minimum wage, might have hit the jackpot.

 

[TaserFace007]

I think that Kano came out a winner. They reversed the unintentional damage nerf he got, so it's just buffs and he got a good third variation.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

Outside of a few variations, it looks like the OP was 100% accurate. Many top players saying they are trash.

To nobody's surprise, the most useful variations were given to the already top tier. Kano almost had a legit buff with f1 being a mid but the second hit you can mash a poke even if you blocked the f1. Kitana got a lot of love and is probably the big winner. Skarlet's 3rd variation gets 35% off 212 for one bar so that's really good.

 

[PLAYING TO WIN]

The hot takes continue...

Winners:

• Geras for having a seemingly good third variation
• Liu Kang for having a seemingly good third variation
• Kitana for receiving major buffs

Losers:

• everyone else, especially Kollector, for having a bad third variation and/or receiving major nerfs on moves in the third variation

So the rich, Geras and Liu Kang, got richer. Kitana, who was making minimum wage, might have hit the jackpot.

kollectors chakram was so good they slowed it down to 20 some frames of startup and added 7 frames of recovery? Given the characters other tools in that loadout it made sense. NRS continues to contradict themselves by allowing geras to have a better Aquaman FTD. An unreadctable low that leads to oki, punishes everything and is safe vs the entire case minus 1 or 2. Geras already being a complete character with many of the best things in the game. I wish Paulo would do a Q&A to discuss his logic.

 

[kcd117]

kollectors chakram was so good they slowed it down to 20 some frames of startup and added 7 frames of recovery? Given the characters other tools in that loadout it made sense. NRS continues to contradict themselves by allowing geras to have a better Aquaman FTD. An unreadctable low that leads to oki, punishes everything and is safe vs the entire case minus 1 or 2. Geras already being a complete character with many of the best things in the game. I wish Paulo would do a Q&A to discuss his logic.

I love how they crippled one of Kollector’s coolest moves with no evidence of how good it would be in competitive scenario (even tho I believe it had mad potential) but Geras’s quicksand trap is still a lightning fast recovery 15% dmg neutral killer low anti-zoning projectile that gives him free oki anywhere in the screen with a very easy KB requirement and gets overlooked everytime when we have already seen how busted it is at every single level.

 

[Vhozite]

Exactly. We are nerfing moves before they even have a chance to be a problem?