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Fatal Blows must be changed

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
How does a blue shell work? I'm not that familiar with Mario Kart.
How does a blue shell work? I'm not that familiar with Mario Kart.
I didn't play the game, but as far as I've gathered over the years, the blue shell was a consumable in Mario Kart that could be employed by a losing player. The blue shell would race up to the winning player unerringly, bop him, and completely wreck his momentum, allowing other racers to pass him as he recovered.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this description someone.
 

Marlow

Premium
Premium Supporter
Cool. I was more of a Crash Team Racing guy. I guess if you're being loose and generous, both a Blue Shell and Fatal Blow are a kind of comeback mechanic, so they're "the same" in that regard, but other than that I don't see how they're that similar. It sounds like blue shells are "unblockable", with few options to play around. Fatal blows can be played around. Fatal Blows are also a resource a player only gets to use once per game, while I imagine that you can obtain and use a blue shell more than once? Also, in MK both players could have access to their FB at the same time, while in Mario Kart can the first place player have access to a blue shell at the same time as the other players?

Tying fatal blow to meter would be interesting, but it certainly doesn't "need" to happen.
 
The story is outlandish, and I still have difficulty believing it, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If this really happened (You going from a d4 away from dying, to full on taking a flawless round away), I'm super salty it wasn't recorded lol...because a comeback like that would have been worthy of watching for sure. ^^
Man, I really don't understand why this feels outlandish to you. Since mk9 I've been in hundreds of both sides of flawless rounds, like probably everyone here.

There was 2vs1 tag battle. Me teaming up with a somewhat bad but "random"player, against another friend of ours, clearly BELOW my skill level....he double flawlessed both of us. He got the entire tag round without taking a single hit. Talk about mopping.

Another one: I played a good Jade. Maybe as good as she could be.
Imagine Jade against Cyrax, having to carefully command bf3 to bypass his net, while also moving cautiously to avoid bomb set ups. Countless times I was one hit away from winning, until that one mistake that would 100% reset me to death.

In MKX, we all know it's just a matter of 2 50/50 attempts for this to happen.

MK11 is fresh, we don't play it autopilot yet and still work our ways through the new mechanics. It's natural for such things to occur.

In my opinion, wins and losses are not only pure skill and math. Stress and psychology factors determine the outcome too.
 

xenogorgeous

Seriously .... really ?
Premium Supporter
this gameplay mechanic would be better if, once you have the Fatal Blow active, using it, and hitting or not your opponent, the FP just goes away forever until the match ends .... this could make the precisely timing for use FB be more .... valorized and hyped in this game. :cool:

the way it is, just open wide for some braindead strategies, when both players have their FB on fire, and the way both play just changes totally, with each other trying to put some dirty poke or 50/50 strings only, in order to link ASAP the FB that was active again after the 10 seconds cooldown .... it's not funny to watch this, seriously :(
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
Man, I really don't understand why this feels outlandish to you. Since mk9 I've been in hundreds of both sides of flawless rounds, like probably everyone here.

There was 2vs1 tag battle. Me teaming up with a somewhat bad but "random"player, against another friend of ours, clearly BELOW my skill level....he double flawlessed both of us. He got the entire tag round without taking a single hit. Talk about mopping.

Another one: I played a good Jade. Maybe as good as she could be.
Imagine Jade against Cyrax, having to carefully command bf3 to bypass his net, while also moving cautiously to avoid bomb set ups. Countless times I was one hit away from winning, until that one mistake that would 100% reset me to death.

In MKX, we all know it's just a matter of 2 50/50 attempts for this to happen.

MK11 is fresh, we don't play it autopilot yet and still work our ways through the new mechanics. It's natural for such things to occur.

In my opinion, wins and losses are not only pure skill and math. Stress and psychology factors determine the outcome too.
Still should've recorded it, damn it! :p Nah, I'm messing with you man.
 
I didn't play the game, but as far as I've gathered over the years, the blue shell was a consumable in Mario Kart that could be employed by a losing player. The blue shell would race up to the winning player unerringly, bop him, and completely wreck his momentum, allowing other racers to pass him as he recovered.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this description someone.
Wait what? I've seen the term "blue shell" lately and never thought it's origins. Mindblown

Your description is 100% correct.

Edit: I messed my response. Trying to reply on mobile android is hell
 
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Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
I'm pretty sure a lot if Fatal Blows are unsafe and I remember m2dave talking in another thread about how to punish them.

You can reduce the damage by labbing the timing, the armor doesn't start right away so you can hit someone out of it or break the armor, and it's a mechanic both players have access to. It's really not that big of a deal. There was never a time that I've gotten hit by one where it wasn't my fault.

It's new to the franchise and people aren't used to it. That's all.
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
I see you are an cool kid. Going all edgy and whatnot

  • I was getting mopped because my opponent had the momentum. It's completely possible, and it's happening.
  • Full combo to slide KB ~40%, whatever JK corner bnb ~25%, FB ~35%. I only connected 3 hits as you see, one of them being armoured.
  • I performed the other 2 AMP slides in the PREVIOUS round.
  • @Rozalin1780 too, as I said in my original post, I WAS A D4 away from flawless losing the round. D4. D freakin 4. Is a d4 equivalent of 1% damage? Don't think so. Is it possible to FB armour through an opponent's d1 while having left a health amount which is MORE than d1? Yes it is.
Watch your ways from now on boy. This place is not gamefaqs.
Ok, so 3% instead of 1%. How many attacks does any character have that you could armor through yet still live?

But let’s really get to the root of the issue here. You’re using the utmost extreme case of anecdotal evidence to make your case. Yes, I’m sure it would make a very compelling case that fatal blows should be changed because one guy made a comeback from a 97% life deficit after landing 65% worth of damage from other sources and then armoring through a d1 with a fatal blow.

I’m not trying to blow you up here, just pointing out that such an extreme example, true or untrue, isn’t the best way to make an argument.
 
Ok, so 3% instead of 1%. How many attacks does any character have that you could armor through yet still live?

But let’s really get to the root of the issue here. You’re using the utmost extreme case of anecdotal evidence to make your case. Yes, I’m sure it would make a very compelling case that fatal blows should be changed because one guy made a comeback from a 97% life deficit after landing 65% worth of damage from other sources and then armoring through a d1 with a fatal blow.

I’m not trying to blow you up here, just pointing out that such an extreme example, true or untrue, isn’t the best way to make an argument.

Considering D1 and S1 being usually the fastest normals (while doing about 2% damage) we are talking for only 2 attacks which are the holy grail for many players.

My op is more about occasions where the summed damage bursts win for you, while not having to deal with the tension and stress of a similar situation before FB's and KB's. I don't really know what should be changed about them, but there's definitely something to be tuned there.
 
Its also antihype to see someone lose to a 40+% FB combo without him having access to the same resource at that time, this feeling is simply cuz its a free resource that the loosing side gets first.
What? Isn't that the same as any revenge meter in any other fighter? Person who gets pummelled gets the option to do a comeback super? Yet the pummeller doesn't get the same. They may get a super meter boost because of the damage given, but that's taken care of with the off/def meters.

Given that many combos are anywhere from 25-40% +potential KB boosts; and a good player can hit them without fail every single time if given the opportunity off a jumping punch, or anti-air, i don't see how a one off ~30% move is seen as damaging to the game.

I get salty as hell when i get hit by them, but no more than x-rays of the past. But i also know i'm not a good player by a looong shot. So it's not surprising when it happens.

Frankly the only thing that bugs me with them is that they're all about 2 hits too long. Everytime i watch one i always think "if they stopped at this hit it would have been better."
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I didn't play the game, but as far as I've gathered over the years, the blue shell was a consumable in Mario Kart that could be employed by a losing player. The blue shell would race up to the winning player unerringly, bop him, and completely wreck his momentum, allowing other racers to pass him as he recovered.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this description someone.
Except you can't compare a fighting game match only involving 2 players with a race that involves 12. Mario Kart races allow randomly generated items based on your positions. For example it is impossible for a player in first a get a blue shell since the blue shell is strictly used to derail the player in first. However, it is also very rarely that the player in second gets a blue shell, the probability of that in game is low. More powerful items like bullet bills, stars and blue shells are more likely given to racers who are currently placing in the middle or last of the race, in order for them to catch up with other racers. There are also ways to defend against blue shells in newer Mario Kart games, things like using mushrooms (which are rarely given to the racer in first) to dash through the impact, or a new item that serves the sole purpose of bowing away the blue shell. If the racer in first has a sufficiently large lead then the blue shell won't even change the outcome, as it shouldn't. It is also entirely possible for the racer in first to take out the racer in second as well if he/she times the explosion to catch them both, so the effectiveness or "cheesiness" of the blue shell as a "free" comeback mechanic as some may think is called into question.

I don't really understand how one can compare FBs to a blue shell when they work under different contexts for different games and have totally different mechanics on balancing the usage. Both player have FBs, when the match goes down to the wire, both players must have the awareness and switch up their play style accordingly. It completely stops momentum because the attacker must be wary of the possibility of a comeback, the defender is given time to breathe and think on how to capitalise on their resources. Every time a FB is wasted, the 10 second timer becomes the all important window of opportunity to open an opponent up to make a comeback and secure a victory. Or the attacker can bait the defender in order to punish with fatal blow. The damage that combos with fatal blow do is high, though it is similar to standard optimal combos from MKXL if we are not taking about krushing blows. The only advantage that FBs have is that the opponent cannot breakaway from it if they are caught. However this also makes them a valuable resource to end out rounds and specifically catch breakaways so the opponent is left with considerably less resources for the upcoming round.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
Except you can't compare a fighting game match only involving 2 players with a race that involves 12. Mario Kart races allow randomly generated items based on your positions. For example it is impossible for a player in first a get a blue shell since the blue shell is strictly used to derail the player in first. However, it is also very rarely that the player in second gets a blue shell, the probability of that in game is low. More powerful items like bullet bills, stars and blue shells are more likely given to racers who are currently placing in the middle or last of the race, in order for them to catch up with other racers. There are also ways to defend against blue shells in newer Mario Kart games, things like using mushrooms (which are rarely given to the racer in first) to dash through the impact, or a new item that serves the sole purpose of bowing away the blue shell. If the racer in first has a sufficiently large lead then the blue shell won't even change the outcome, as it shouldn't. It is also entirely possible for the racer in first to take out the racer in second as well if he/she times the explosion to catch them both, so the effectiveness or "cheesiness" of the blue shell as a "free" comeback mechanic as some may think is called into question.

I don't really understand how one can compare FBs to a blue shell when they work under different contexts for different games and have totally different mechanics on balancing the usage. Both player have FBs, when the match goes down to the wire, both players must have the awareness and switch up their play style accordingly. It completely stops momentum because the attacker must be wary of the possibility of a comeback, the defender is given time to breathe and think on how to capitalise on their resources. Every time a FB is wasted, the 10 second timer becomes the all important window of opportunity to open an opponent up to make a comeback and secure a victory. Or the attacker can bait the defender in order to punish with fatal blow. The damage that combos with fatal blow do is high, though it is similar to standard optimal combos from MKXL if we are not taking about krushing blows. The only advantage that FBs have is that the opponent cannot breakaway from it if they are caught. However this also makes them a valuable resource to end out rounds and specifically catch breakaways so the opponent is left with considerably less resources for the upcoming round.
I'll be honest, I'm incredibly tired at the moment and I'm not sure if you're coming at me because you think I'm anti-FB, or if you just quoted me as a launching point to convey your support for FB's.

Either way, have fun. I'm going to sleep now. Zzzz
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I'll be honest, I'm incredibly tired at the moment and I'm not sure if you're coming at me because you think I'm anti-FB, or if you just quoted me as a launching point to convey your support for FB's.

Either way, have fun. I'm going to sleep now. Zzzz
I'm simply supplementing your post on blue shells. Sleep well
 

xKMMx

Noob
Its the scrub button for sure. The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button. If your getting your ass kicked and have no other options here's a way for NRS to give you an opportunity get back in a match you have no business winning,
They made this game purely for scrubs. Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round. Ive been trying my hardest to really love this game because its the first one Ive been around for at the begininnig of the life cycle since MK3. But man it is sooooooo shallow and is a scrub paradise online.
 

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
Premium Supporter
I have mixed feelings on fatal blows. they are cool but just too long. a novelty that has already worn off. The quick fatal blows are kinda neat though.
Quick fatal blows? Is this a thing? God my life would be so much better if I just got knocked down and lost 320 when a fatal connected. At least give me a “forfeit round” option.
 

Auron

Look, it has begun.
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.


The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button.
Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?

Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round.
A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most characters.
 

xKMMx

Noob
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.

Awww did someone’s feelings get hurt cause their favorite fighting game studio made a game that has massive issues? There there little buddy. No reason to get testy with people.

Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?



A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most
 
Its the scrub button for sure. The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button. If your getting your ass kicked and have no other options here's a way for NRS to give you an opportunity get back in a match you have no business winning,
They made this game purely for scrubs. Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round. Ive been trying my hardest to really love this game because its the first one Ive been around for at the begininnig of the life cycle since MK3. But man it is sooooooo shallow and is a scrub paradise online.
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
 

xKMMx

Noob
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.




Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?



A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most characters.
FIrst thing bro. Not all fatal blows are punishable and not by all characters. So let me stop ya there. A lot of them have big range and some even full screen range (Noob Saibot) and most have push back negating a lot of potential punishing options.

And yea sometimes it can take a round to evaluate and opponents strategy. But I'm probably not as "great" as you. I'm sure a five time EVO champ like you probably never needs to see more than the character select screen to figure out how an opponent is going to play in the match but others that play maybe a few hours every couple days tend to need a bit of a warm up period for their reactions.

THe reason I personally am on here stating that I Feel it needs to be changed is I think the mechanic is whack and doesn't have enough risk reward balance. That's all I'm getting at. Its not because I'm losing to it or not. Its my opinion on it.

That said since your so upset about my "crying" feel free to send me your gamer tag and we can run a first to 5 and hopefully you can show me how you punish fatal blows all day.
 
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xKMMx

Noob
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
Yea and that's my point on it. Its just like Xray in MKX. But at least the Xray had risk reward balance.
 

Ayx

Omnipresent
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
That's incorrect. The FB will always be a staple for mindgames. Do you think back in MK9 or MKX there were mindgames over a X-Ray? No, because meter was too valuable and you would only use it.. at best to kill someone at high level. For High Level MK11 it's way different. When your opponent has FB enabled it can completely shift momentum on how you approach for some character MUs. For Erron (for example) you can't even jump or do anything from full screen without a 30% punish. This really hurts matchups where zoning is important to keep spacing and he can just bop you mid setup. You think this is something only low level bots will abuse? no.

Also it's free damage unlike X Ray. For example Cetrion is my main. Everyone knows how frustrating her zoning is and her wave dashing etc. But in reality her damage per combo is very fair compared to a Sonya or Baraka. Her Krushing Blows are also rare except her target kombo punish KB and usually they know that's the only time a Cetrion gets huge damage and they breakaway. The FB allows me a situation where I can do 30%+ in a combo which can determine a round or game. If you think people aren't going to use it based on some "honor system" like your KOTH matches or because only bots use it, you're wrong.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Armor is the main issue. Geras. Erron black. You cant press a button because itll beat whatever you do. Remove the armor so they at least have earn a legit hit and then confirm to FB.
nah, armor on the fatal blows is fine, it already requires startup so u can't just activate it while someone is trying to pummel you, its also one of the few instances of armor left in the game, so no its not a big deal. making all the fatal blows more punishable is fine.