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Fatal Blows must be changed

HeavyNorse

F*ck Mournful
I can agree that FB's could be more punishable if they whiff or are blocked, but otherwise they're fine as is, imo.
 
This is not to encourage a debate. This is reserved for everyone who wants to shut their console off every time they see one of these things and loudly express their discontent.
Well, this stipulation technically precludes my responding to this thread (NB: PC must'tard racer)... HOWEVER, I think I'm well past qualified to throw my two Vietnamese Dong's worth into this dumpster fire:

How to fix MK11's super mechanic ("Fatal Blows"):

1. Lower the activation threshold to [a base] 10%

2. Restrict FB's use to the FINAL ROUND ONLY -- i.e., if Player-2 has lost the first round of the match, their FB will become available at 10% HP in that second round (and the subsequent round, if unused and the third round is reached -- see below...)

3. Tie Fatal Blow to the game's meter system, where if the super move is used, it drains 100% of both defensive and offensive meters, PERMANENTLY -- i.e., players must sacrifice their meters (and all the mechanics tied therewith) for the rest of the match, if they want to avail their Fatal Blow super move; making the FB's true, Hail Mary "desperation" moves.

4. Increase FB damage output to a base ~50%/500pts (raw / un-comboed), to balance their cost.

5. Within a ±10%/100pt damage window, tweak ("balance") FB damage to reflect character archetype (big/small, male/female, humanoid/monster), FB potency and efficacy (combo viability, exposure to damage-scaling, frame data, armour properties) and FB look/style (animations).

6. Increase the FB QTE timing window to something reasonably and consistently attainable -- e.g., 10-frame window.

7. Increase the damage increase / mitigation properties of successfully timed FB QTE's -- e.g., ±10~15% damage increase / decrease per successful input -- i.e., x5 successful QTE inputs = ±50~75pts base FB damage (*opponent's actions and individual char. FB damage properties notwithstanding).

8.
Provide an option (AN OPTION) for non-universal, individualised, more traditional input command schemes for FB's -- e.g., 2141236 + two button; 4646 + one button.

9.
Tie thus "Alternate" input scheme to FB properties, in some positive manner (in order to incentivise their use, at least a competitive level) -- e.g., alternate input configuration yields an overall +5% damage boost -OR- earlier HP activation threshold -OR- better armour properties -OR- better frame properties (combo potential).

10.
MAKE THE FATAL BLOWS THE "DESPERATION ATTACKS" THAT THEY WERE, AT LEAST NOTIONALLY CONCEIVED TO BE.

NB: All such changes should be applied in concert, relative to one another and balanced as such. No, one hereinbefore change, on its own, will necessarily work for the better -- ALL of the changes are designed to interplay with one another to achieve a sound mechanic.

Disclaimer:
I do not care whether people "like" the ideas I've proposed, nor whether they 'think' the Fatal Blows are the bee's knee as is. The extant system is unequivocally GARBAGE -- evinced by the incessant cries for its overhaul and overwhelming hatred for it, and all immediately proceeding the game's release.

I have played fighting games for longer than most who play MK11 today have been alive. I know what a "super" or "desperation" attack should look and operate like, and MK11's Fatal Blows are NOT an example of this. Defending such an obnoxious and obvious non fighting game 'gamer' titillating mechanic, demonstrates nothing but the irrelevancy of one's opinion--where a fighting game's gameplay system is concerned.

My expertise in this department is unquestionable. I do not even consider the opinions of casual players, whose majority MK11 play-time comes from feckless, mindless grinding of the game's gated content, in its insulting non-core game modes. I could not care less what "Smash", "MvC" or "BB Cross Tag Battle" do. Apple-orange analogies have no place here... if MK11 is to be considered a genuine fighting game, and not just some "brawler" wherein combat mechanics are merely incidental.

If you are too blind to see the sheer wisdom in what I have so generously imparted upon you, that is your shame and, indeed, loss. I am not here to cosset your feeble feelings and fragile ego. If you are "offended" by my suggestions and/or forthright candour, that is a psychological problem that you, yourself must grapple with. Although I could act as your ad hoc shrink, I have no desire to do so; and nor will I. Grow a spine / some balls and deal with it™.

Most great people in history are only recognised posthumously. I, for one, will NOT go so gently into that dark night. My opinion supersedes yours. My ideas are better than yours. Your contribution pales in comparison to mine. What you wrought on your best day, is of lesser worth than what I barf up on my worst.

The field of expertise must be respected -- failing to do so, risks chaos. I promote logic and order. Ignorance strives only for entropy. If you are ignorant, you are the enemy. The enemy must be fought and expunged--with extreme prejudice.

Do not be my enemy -- be my friend. Reject death. Choose life. Choose a better Fatal Blow system.

 

Lex Luthor II

Lord of Lightning
lol wot....I disagree .
If you have 33% and your opponent is at 27%, I would call it pretty even. I wouldnt say you did better just because you are a poke away from being at the same health meter :rolleyes:. Moments like these you gotta become vigilant and that's it.

Now, imagine you get your opponent to 27% and you're at 95% health. Suddenly, u get a FB because your opponent has one....that's a terrible idea and essentially brings their chances of a comeback to 0. Especially since FB recharge if they miss.

The biggest problem with FB is that it should be heavily punishable for everyone, without a pushback that makes it safe. And to those who have a long range one (ex: Frost and Erron), then it should take longer to recharge. It should be a high risk/high reward move.
Point flew totally over your head, and that was just a fake solution to a very real problem.

Why should your opponent be rewarded for doing 6% worse than you? They are CLEARLY at a huge advantage; how'd they get there? By doing worse so far.

If you cannot see the utter ridiculousness in that system then truly I say this unto you now: you are lost.
 
If fatal blow becomes available to one player, the OTHER player should get access to it as well. Its annoying hitting that spot where you are upset you have more life than them, when they have fatal blow.
It's the same as any comeback meter as far as i'm aware. The more you die the more meter you get.

The way you describe it, then in previous games if one player gets a full bar for x-ray/super, then the other should get one as well? It doesn't work like that. The way i see it you have to earn it. You get meter by being aggressive and on the offense, but that's risky as you can get blown up. FB you "earn" by giving up your life. So while you may get that as a bonus, you're at the end where any decent combo might take you out.

but another solution is to lower FB from 30% life to maybe 15% life.
Why would you bother? Anyone that even picks up the game for a day can pull off a 15% combo 100% of the time.

It's there as a comeback mechanic, and works well when one player is 70% and the other is 30% to even things up, but doesn't seem so fair when it's 35%/25%.

Maybe it should scale somehow? So take MAX 50% of whatever the opponent has left? Problem with that is you potentially can take 50% if you haven't hit your opponent, which will probably annoy people even more - but does even out the match rather quickly, which is the point after all.

Seeing as some people want it tied to meter, possibly something like this: first attempt is free, 2nd attempt you lose 1bar off/def meter, 3rd attempt you lose both bars. 4th you lose both bars and they don't regen. That way you have to make the first one count, otherwise every attempt afterwards you risk being stuck with less options as you've got less or no meter. Will definitely add to the risk of throwing it out especially more than twice.

Doubt they're going to re-jig much of it though. But so long as they balance them out so they're not overpowered/speed etc, then they'll get figured out in time.
 

Ayx

Omnipresent
Some of these suggestions for Fatals are ridiculous. It's like no one has ever played against a char w/ armor moves or invincibility frames ever. Comeback mechanics have been around since SF4.. in 2008..... you really think this is "that" broken? I think one of the only nerfs it really needs is add 3 seconds to the cooldown so people can't turtle that much. (adds more pressure to the player who failed it) and make recovery frames a guaranteed punish even for slower mid attacks regardless of range (basically adding more recovery frames). Yes they're fully punishable now but you can tell a lot of people have no idea how to punish them properly and if FB is noob friendly, punishing them should be noob friendly as well IMO.
 
SPOLIER ALERT!!
Nothing so substantive as a Fatal Blow overhaul would ever happen in an already-released NRS fight game. Little Beyond "nerf" patches will be forthcoming, and short of a "Super" or "Ultra" reboot of M11 -- something as likely as people getting the chars. they actually want, or the core gameplay engine changing: BUCKLEY'S AND SNOWFLAKE'S -- FB's will remain as is... for better or (rather) for worse.
 
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Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Point flew totally over your head, and that was just a fake solution to a very real problem.

Why should your opponent be rewarded for doing 6% worse than you? They are CLEARLY at a huge advantage; how'd they get there? By doing worse so far.

If you cannot see the utter ridiculousness in that system then truly I say this unto you now: you are lost.
Are you serious.... Calling me lost, yet you are having problems with a mechanic that forces you to be more patient....Sorry but the issue of FB has nothing to do with what you're saying. You bring up a fake solution to a fake problem you feel exists. You perceive it like a reward for doing bad. It's you POV and its one that isnt really shared in the FGC
 

Jbog

Noob
Botb characters should get fatal blow activated when 1 reaches the fatal blow line then can finish off or come back
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
All of the bolded is the problem with the gameplay: They're not needed and need to be updated. Tradition is just a binding mentality. There's no logical reason for a block button in a 2d fighter. The Scorpion's teleport excuse is lame because it used to be slower and easily crouched under. It used to be a primary anti-zoning tool and not a combo starter.

Not even Tekken, the game Boon is obsessed with has a block button. It's arbitrary to have to press two button just to block low and two different button commands to break throws. It works in Tekken because you can clearly see what type of throw is being used and characters fight from different angles (dodging). MK only has left and right to worry about. Logic, not just throwing things into the cauldron and calling it "different". They need to have logical application, which the above mechanics do not. The same can be said for how arbitrary it is to delay wake-up and counter from the ground.

Even the dial-a-combo system is conflicting with the purpose of neutral play, where it's more about memorization than reaction and reads. I know it's not going anywhere (facepalm), but can the game and it's characters not be all about who has the best strings? Please? Good gracious! Where are the ground/air 2-in-1 combos at? Where's interaction with specials vs specials and normal attacks vs specials? Special and normal attacks with unique attributes for neutral like how Jade's glow invalidates projectiles for a short time and back kicks that don't knockdown, but allow standing combos. There needs to be more of that type of nuance in strings, normals and specials. More branching points in strings with dash/special cancels, etc. It needs the back-n-forth play in every aspect and keeping players honest. That's neutral.

If the game is going to be based around neutral, a player should have the option of not relying on strings to succeed. Strings are not neutral play. They're the end result of winning neutral and predictable (memory-based) strings leads to a stagnated game.

There's really no purpose to Fatal Blows except to heavily hand-hold. Why not give each character unique traits at 30% or lower health? Something like the traits from Injustice. That would require actual skill instead of some auto-combo that does all the work for the player. Also, change breakaway into a MK 9 breaker. That way, players can break on the ground as well and not drop out with the chance to attack the aggressor right away. It goes right back to a full neutral position. And finally, lose the chip-kill. Make players earn the last hit. Those would be better (and more exciting) comeback mechanics.
You nailed exactly what I was getting at.

I don't hate the game. It's super fun. But so many of the mechanics are there because "tradition" or "neat" when in reality they're just outdated or don't add much to the game aside from aesthetics. Aesthetics are great, but something that is detrimental to the neutral for the sake of being "we've always done it" or "look how dope that krushing/fatal blow was" are going to hurt the game in the long run.

I've accepted that dial-a-combo strings are here to stay. They actually don't bother me that much aside from the hitstun vs blockstun timing being different (like when you j1/j2 and your combo drops b/c you didn't mash fast enough lol).

But the block button, pushback on pokes, free Fatal Blows, and ESPECIALLY the throws being true 50-50s are beyond moronic. The game is actually super fun in footsie range and dare I say fullscreen, but the minute you're point blank it turns into an entirely different d1/d3/d2/neutral duck/throw mixup game that feels awful.

If NRS is so concerned with neutral in MK they need to allow characters to actually push back to and reset to neutral more often instead of sticking together like idiots while you rotate pokes/grabs and see what sticks.

Now I realize that at the highest level, this ^^^ is way less common. But from someone who goes to plenty of tournaments and watches/plays against a ton of mid and upper-mid level players.... this stupid point blank meta is SUPER common. And then you have so many characters who either ignore neutral with an incredibly fast teleport (lol Scorpion) or they completely bypass this neutral that NRS supposedly cares so much about by mashing 2 buttons and doing an armored move that blows you up for walking backwards or using a well-spaced footsie button.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
After playing a lot of fights, fatal blows are pretty braindead stuff. Some are totally braindead and feel cheap compared to some others. Plus this stuff is pushed out onto a bad online.

I'd also like to see the hitboxes on them...I wonder if NRS would feel embarrassed by what they look like. :p
 

LawAbidingCitizen

Cyrax, Kotal Kahn, NightWolf & Shang Tsung.
Calling people salty cuz they see things differently than you is pathetic. Assuming everybody who doesnt like the mechanic is a victim makes you look stupid. This together with how you phrased everything else makes it seem that you just like the mechanic cuz it helps you personally win.

Dont agree with it being linked to meter as well, just say that instead of being a douche.

Most of the times its not fun to use and making a comeback with it (for me it isnt), its not fun losing close matches to it and it totally sucks as spectator seeing matches be decided by it.

You call it comeback mechanic, i call it a robbery tool as long as you can use them raw and kill your opponent before he is in range of his own comeback mechanic. Especially if some are a lot stronger than others. Tune the damage down to ~25%, adjust the powerlevel of the FBs to be somewhat the same & make it 1 time use even on whiff (or do you need a comeback mechanic for failing with your comenack mechanic).

As they are now they are simply cheap in my book. You disagree? All good, enjoy it. I hope it changes.
I think many of them need balancing but there has to be a middle ground. I want them to be somewhat reactable like Noobs But not godlike speed like Jax's 11f Mid that is half screen but he needs the speed to connect in combos so maybe meet in the middle 17-19f startup seems fine. Btw I play Jax and think his is pretty damn strong considering its unreactable, its damn near impossible to bait, its a mid and it grants him Brushing Blow from full heat. His is meant to gain additional damage and set KB not juST A round closer.
ErroN Blacks Is pretty damn strong as well. Its the unreactable and none punishable ones that I think need adjustment. If they want to use it multiple times if it wife's, that's fine as long as its punishable and Reactable
not near poke speed and half to full screen.
 
The problem with fatal blows Is the nature of their design. They all do around the same amount of dmg 32-33% but the properties of them vary quite a bit. The FB that can be done from mid - full screen should do less damage over all or have a much longer start up. A character with a mid to long range fb can do it at any range while getting the exact same damage as a character who needs to be up close. In many the mid-full screen FB is faster. And in jax case, also buffs him.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
In previous NRS games the FB for each characters weren't really a big point of balance as they were rarely used. In this game they're so readily available and free, they NEED to be balanced better. Why geras and erron have two of the best with their tools makes no sense
 
It never feels good when your opponent makes a comeback off a yolo f*ck neutral 10 frame start up full screen armored rapidly multi hitting "projectile" that wouldn't have been punishable on block, required what amounts to a one button input and will return however many seconds later in the off chance it missed.

I want to be clear though: citing erron black's FB as the problem with fatal blows overall is highly deceptive. Erron's FB specifically is absurd, and LEAGUES beyond even the next best FB - whether you think that goes to Geras or Kabal.

I felt very early on that Fb inputs were too easy, I think that's part of the problem - it puts them squarely in the realm of "all I need to do is have the wherewithal to react to my opponent merely pressing a button in neutral," unlike say an ultra in SF4 which typically had a complex enough input if you were going to whip it out you had to be either somewhat preemptive in buffering (i.e., there's a degree of expectation) or have GODLIKE execution/reaction speed - and even then the startups were slow, so it wasn't to catch people doing "anything other than blocking" but to beat a projectile or something.

Not a big fan of pushing for every aspect of a FG to be uniform; the diversity between character tools is what makes it fun - but yeah, I'm more and more liking idea of FBs being primarily geared toward combos as a counter to breakaway. At the least they shouldn't return the same round on block or whiff and should probably have less pushback, but if nothing else for the love of god make them something other than pressing two buttons simultaneously. For all the complaints of how they don't scale hard enough in combos, I dislike these far more as things you just throw out in neutral because why not.

Perhaps this is the one area where the meter system fails (otherwise I quite like it). I think for moves this powerful, which are akin to "supers," there should be greater risk associated with throwing them out. You blow a super you lose all your meter. It's not "oh well I tried!" You lose a big resource. There's virtually no deterrent for yoloing FBs seeing as punishing them is highly situational.
 
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TyCarter35

Bonafide Jax scrub
Most of the fatal blows feel pretty balanced except for a few (looking at u Erron). Not having armor for the first 5 frames at least gives u a chance to meaty the shit so not like they can mash it wakeup or what not. That being said a 10 second recharge time is fine since 10 seconds is a lot of time in a match. Most are unsafe af as it was intended to be. With that being said the mechanic is fine it's just that some fatal blows need to be adjusted.