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Fatal Blows must be changed

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Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
I see you are an cool kid. Going all edgy and whatnot

  • I was getting mopped because my opponent had the momentum. It's completely possible, and it's happening.
  • Full combo to slide KB ~40%, whatever JK corner bnb ~25%, FB ~35%. I only connected 3 hits as you see, one of them being armoured.
  • I performed the other 2 AMP slides in the PREVIOUS round.
  • @Rozalin1780 too, as I said in my original post, I WAS A D4 away from flawless losing the round. D4. D freakin 4. Is a d4 equivalent of 1% damage? Don't think so. Is it possible to FB armour through an opponent's d1 while having left a health amount which is MORE than d1? Yes it is.
Watch your ways from now on boy. This place is not gamefaqs.
Ok, so 3% instead of 1%. How many attacks does any character have that you could armor through yet still live?

But let’s really get to the root of the issue here. You’re using the utmost extreme case of anecdotal evidence to make your case. Yes, I’m sure it would make a very compelling case that fatal blows should be changed because one guy made a comeback from a 97% life deficit after landing 65% worth of damage from other sources and then armoring through a d1 with a fatal blow.

I’m not trying to blow you up here, just pointing out that such an extreme example, true or untrue, isn’t the best way to make an argument.
 
Ok, so 3% instead of 1%. How many attacks does any character have that you could armor through yet still live?

But let’s really get to the root of the issue here. You’re using the utmost extreme case of anecdotal evidence to make your case. Yes, I’m sure it would make a very compelling case that fatal blows should be changed because one guy made a comeback from a 97% life deficit after landing 65% worth of damage from other sources and then armoring through a d1 with a fatal blow.

I’m not trying to blow you up here, just pointing out that such an extreme example, true or untrue, isn’t the best way to make an argument.

Considering D1 and S1 being usually the fastest normals (while doing about 2% damage) we are talking for only 2 attacks which are the holy grail for many players.

My op is more about occasions where the summed damage bursts win for you, while not having to deal with the tension and stress of a similar situation before FB's and KB's. I don't really know what should be changed about them, but there's definitely something to be tuned there.
 
Its also antihype to see someone lose to a 40+% FB combo without him having access to the same resource at that time, this feeling is simply cuz its a free resource that the loosing side gets first.
What? Isn't that the same as any revenge meter in any other fighter? Person who gets pummelled gets the option to do a comeback super? Yet the pummeller doesn't get the same. They may get a super meter boost because of the damage given, but that's taken care of with the off/def meters.

Given that many combos are anywhere from 25-40% +potential KB boosts; and a good player can hit them without fail every single time if given the opportunity off a jumping punch, or anti-air, i don't see how a one off ~30% move is seen as damaging to the game.

I get salty as hell when i get hit by them, but no more than x-rays of the past. But i also know i'm not a good player by a looong shot. So it's not surprising when it happens.

Frankly the only thing that bugs me with them is that they're all about 2 hits too long. Everytime i watch one i always think "if they stopped at this hit it would have been better."
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I didn't play the game, but as far as I've gathered over the years, the blue shell was a consumable in Mario Kart that could be employed by a losing player. The blue shell would race up to the winning player unerringly, bop him, and completely wreck his momentum, allowing other racers to pass him as he recovered.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this description someone.
Except you can't compare a fighting game match only involving 2 players with a race that involves 12. Mario Kart races allow randomly generated items based on your positions. For example it is impossible for a player in first a get a blue shell since the blue shell is strictly used to derail the player in first. However, it is also very rarely that the player in second gets a blue shell, the probability of that in game is low. More powerful items like bullet bills, stars and blue shells are more likely given to racers who are currently placing in the middle or last of the race, in order for them to catch up with other racers. There are also ways to defend against blue shells in newer Mario Kart games, things like using mushrooms (which are rarely given to the racer in first) to dash through the impact, or a new item that serves the sole purpose of bowing away the blue shell. If the racer in first has a sufficiently large lead then the blue shell won't even change the outcome, as it shouldn't. It is also entirely possible for the racer in first to take out the racer in second as well if he/she times the explosion to catch them both, so the effectiveness or "cheesiness" of the blue shell as a "free" comeback mechanic as some may think is called into question.

I don't really understand how one can compare FBs to a blue shell when they work under different contexts for different games and have totally different mechanics on balancing the usage. Both player have FBs, when the match goes down to the wire, both players must have the awareness and switch up their play style accordingly. It completely stops momentum because the attacker must be wary of the possibility of a comeback, the defender is given time to breathe and think on how to capitalise on their resources. Every time a FB is wasted, the 10 second timer becomes the all important window of opportunity to open an opponent up to make a comeback and secure a victory. Or the attacker can bait the defender in order to punish with fatal blow. The damage that combos with fatal blow do is high, though it is similar to standard optimal combos from MKXL if we are not taking about krushing blows. The only advantage that FBs have is that the opponent cannot breakaway from it if they are caught. However this also makes them a valuable resource to end out rounds and specifically catch breakaways so the opponent is left with considerably less resources for the upcoming round.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Except you can't compare a fighting game match only involving 2 players with a race that involves 12. Mario Kart races allow randomly generated items based on your positions. For example it is impossible for a player in first a get a blue shell since the blue shell is strictly used to derail the player in first. However, it is also very rarely that the player in second gets a blue shell, the probability of that in game is low. More powerful items like bullet bills, stars and blue shells are more likely given to racers who are currently placing in the middle or last of the race, in order for them to catch up with other racers. There are also ways to defend against blue shells in newer Mario Kart games, things like using mushrooms (which are rarely given to the racer in first) to dash through the impact, or a new item that serves the sole purpose of bowing away the blue shell. If the racer in first has a sufficiently large lead then the blue shell won't even change the outcome, as it shouldn't. It is also entirely possible for the racer in first to take out the racer in second as well if he/she times the explosion to catch them both, so the effectiveness or "cheesiness" of the blue shell as a "free" comeback mechanic as some may think is called into question.

I don't really understand how one can compare FBs to a blue shell when they work under different contexts for different games and have totally different mechanics on balancing the usage. Both player have FBs, when the match goes down to the wire, both players must have the awareness and switch up their play style accordingly. It completely stops momentum because the attacker must be wary of the possibility of a comeback, the defender is given time to breathe and think on how to capitalise on their resources. Every time a FB is wasted, the 10 second timer becomes the all important window of opportunity to open an opponent up to make a comeback and secure a victory. Or the attacker can bait the defender in order to punish with fatal blow. The damage that combos with fatal blow do is high, though it is similar to standard optimal combos from MKXL if we are not taking about krushing blows. The only advantage that FBs have is that the opponent cannot breakaway from it if they are caught. However this also makes them a valuable resource to end out rounds and specifically catch breakaways so the opponent is left with considerably less resources for the upcoming round.
I'll be honest, I'm incredibly tired at the moment and I'm not sure if you're coming at me because you think I'm anti-FB, or if you just quoted me as a launching point to convey your support for FB's.

Either way, have fun. I'm going to sleep now. Zzzz
 

Mandolore1123

Man of Science Who Wields the Living Lightning
I'll be honest, I'm incredibly tired at the moment and I'm not sure if you're coming at me because you think I'm anti-FB, or if you just quoted me as a launching point to convey your support for FB's.

Either way, have fun. I'm going to sleep now. Zzzz
I'm simply supplementing your post on blue shells. Sleep well
 

xKMMx

Banned
Its the scrub button for sure. The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button. If your getting your ass kicked and have no other options here's a way for NRS to give you an opportunity get back in a match you have no business winning,
They made this game purely for scrubs. Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round. Ive been trying my hardest to really love this game because its the first one Ive been around for at the begininnig of the life cycle since MK3. But man it is sooooooo shallow and is a scrub paradise online.
 

OzzFoxx

Hardcore gaming poser.
I have mixed feelings on fatal blows. they are cool but just too long. a novelty that has already worn off. The quick fatal blows are kinda neat though.
Quick fatal blows? Is this a thing? God my life would be so much better if I just got knocked down and lost 320 when a fatal connected. At least give me a “forfeit round” option.
 

Auron

Look, it has begun.
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.


The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button.
Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?

Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round.
A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most characters.
 

xKMMx

Banned
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.

Awww did someone’s feelings get hurt cause their favorite fighting game studio made a game that has massive issues? There there little buddy. No reason to get testy with people.

Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?



A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most
 
Its the scrub button for sure. The only people I ever saw use Xray in MKX were low level scrubs that couldn't pull off a 35 percent combo to save their lives. Its the same with this one. Its the scrub button. If your getting your ass kicked and have no other options here's a way for NRS to give you an opportunity get back in a match you have no business winning,
They made this game purely for scrubs. Down 2 is over powered as fuck and easy to land because every one's b n b's start with highs so scrubs either mash out D1 or D2 after their turn is over and they constantly grab for 14 percent.
THese tactics are of course easily recognized and beatable once you see it for a round but its ridiculous that crap is even viable for a round. Ive been trying my hardest to really love this game because its the first one Ive been around for at the begininnig of the life cycle since MK3. But man it is sooooooo shallow and is a scrub paradise online.
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
 

xKMMx

Banned
Fatal Blows are all punishable and only once per match. Some of you guys would be having an aneurysm over Rage arts.




Combo breakers aren't linked to the same resource pool as Fatal Blows, Netherrealm obviously got tired of making supers no one was using for 4 games, if you're so great why aren't you blocking and punishing? They average at -22. If you are punishing what exactly is the problem?



A round? You have to lose a round to realize you can punish d1 and d2 crazy af mashers? If you're winning and these tactics are ineffective why are you crying here in the first place? And there's plenty of viable mid starters for most characters.
FIrst thing bro. Not all fatal blows are punishable and not by all characters. So let me stop ya there. A lot of them have big range and some even full screen range (Noob Saibot) and most have push back negating a lot of potential punishing options.

And yea sometimes it can take a round to evaluate and opponents strategy. But I'm probably not as "great" as you. I'm sure a five time EVO champ like you probably never needs to see more than the character select screen to figure out how an opponent is going to play in the match but others that play maybe a few hours every couple days tend to need a bit of a warm up period for their reactions.

THe reason I personally am on here stating that I Feel it needs to be changed is I think the mechanic is whack and doesn't have enough risk reward balance. That's all I'm getting at. Its not because I'm losing to it or not. Its my opinion on it.

That said since your so upset about my "crying" feel free to send me your gamer tag and we can run a first to 5 and hopefully you can show me how you punish fatal blows all day.
 
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xKMMx

Banned
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
Yea and that's my point on it. Its just like Xray in MKX. But at least the Xray had risk reward balance.
 

Ayx

Omnipresent
When the game gets older and the matchups are well known, you'll only see the newer players use them. I remember when made a new account and started playing MKX again. Every low level scrub tried to do xrays right when the meter was full.
I just had really good KOTH in MK11 with 4 good players. None of us use fatal blows except the one other Johnny player that used it to cancel.
That's incorrect. The FB will always be a staple for mindgames. Do you think back in MK9 or MKX there were mindgames over a X-Ray? No, because meter was too valuable and you would only use it.. at best to kill someone at high level. For High Level MK11 it's way different. When your opponent has FB enabled it can completely shift momentum on how you approach for some character MUs. For Erron (for example) you can't even jump or do anything from full screen without a 30% punish. This really hurts matchups where zoning is important to keep spacing and he can just bop you mid setup. You think this is something only low level bots will abuse? no.

Also it's free damage unlike X Ray. For example Cetrion is my main. Everyone knows how frustrating her zoning is and her wave dashing etc. But in reality her damage per combo is very fair compared to a Sonya or Baraka. Her Krushing Blows are also rare except her target kombo punish KB and usually they know that's the only time a Cetrion gets huge damage and they breakaway. The FB allows me a situation where I can do 30%+ in a combo which can determine a round or game. If you think people aren't going to use it based on some "honor system" like your KOTH matches or because only bots use it, you're wrong.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Armor is the main issue. Geras. Erron black. You cant press a button because itll beat whatever you do. Remove the armor so they at least have earn a legit hit and then confirm to FB.
nah, armor on the fatal blows is fine, it already requires startup so u can't just activate it while someone is trying to pummel you, its also one of the few instances of armor left in the game, so no its not a big deal. making all the fatal blows more punishable is fine.
 
Its just like Xray in MKX. But at least the Xray had risk reward balance.
Isn't a big part of the risk of Fatal Blows is that it's a one use only option? Use it in the first round and it's gone for the 2nd and 3rd if you get that far. If you keep it for the 2nd you might be down 1 round and gives the other player some momentum to pummel you in the 2nd round.

It definitely adds another layer of mindgames to deal with.

But at least in MK11 you still have your def/off meters to play with so you're not completely stuck with no options. And seeing as it's only ~30% damage, it's still not much worse than many combo's esp. when a KB is added.

Some should probably be tweaked as they're a little too OP as have been mentioned, but overall they're not an "I win" button as it seems many as saying.
 

xKMMx

Banned
Isn't a big part of the risk of Fatal Blows is that it's a one use only option? Use it in the first round and it's gone for the 2nd and 3rd if you get that far. If you keep it for the 2nd you might be down 1 round and gives the other player some momentum to pummel you in the 2nd round.

It definitely adds another layer of mindgames to deal with.

But at least in MK11 you still have your def/off meters to play with so you're not completely stuck with no options. And seeing as it's only ~30% damage, it's still not much worse than many combo's esp. when a KB is added.

Some should probably be tweaked as they're a little too OP as have been mentioned, but overall they're not an "I win" button as it seems many as saying.
I mean yea but honestly the way they recharge for free is kinda whack. In MKX if you wanted to throw out an Xray out of desperation late in a round you were screwed for resources if you missed.
I don't know man I'm honestly worn out on the debates to be honest. THeres a lot of crap to not like about the game but it is here and its the way it is and probably will stay so like it or not its time to adjust and get over it I suppose.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
I tend to agree. I actually like FB a lot... watching summit shows just how epic and exciting they are.. but I think that missing them could maybe have a larger consequence. Sure they are all punishable on block but even so.. I that having a longer recharge time if you miss might be cool.
 

Wallach

Noob
I tend to agree. I actually like FB a lot... watching summit shows just how epic and exciting they are.. but I think that missing them could maybe have a larger consequence. Sure they are all punishable on block but even so.. I that having a longer recharge time if you miss might be cool.
This is about where I am. I think you should only have one shot at using Fatal Blow per round. If you don't land it, you can try again next round (if you get a next round). That makes more sense to me than seeing them recharge in only 10 seconds.
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
Lol, calling people scrubs coz they disagree and assuming they dont play other fighters. Tell me a modern day fighter where isnt somekind of "comeback mechanic or scrub mechanic"? Oh and the "if u Kids..." rly original and fresh
I wasn't speaking about comeback mechanics in general, but MK11's Fatal Blows not being spent for the round after using it is a good example. They should be easily punishable (many aren't) and should stay gone for that round if yours misses or is blocked.

Better examples of "tradition" mechanics I was speaking to that are awful:
-block button (not necessary in a 2D game, literally no other mainstay 2D fighter has one)
-throw techs being 50-50s (just handle throws like every other game)
-pokes not having pushback (D1 and D3)
-buffers for specials being different than buffers for normals

Note this list isn't huge. Game is good.

It's not some huge secret that the majority of NRS players don't play other fighters. Aside from SonicFox and a small handful of others, what players have had success in other games? Not many. Playing lots of other games shows you just how polished NRS games are--but it also makes it painfully obvious which mechanics are outdated relics that need to be replaced/updated.
 
I wasn't speaking about comeback mechanics in general, but MK11's Fatal Blows not being spent for the round after using it is a good example. They should be easily punishable (many aren't) and should stay gone for that round if yours misses or is blocked.

Better examples of "tradition" mechanics I was speaking to that are awful:
-block button (not necessary in a 2D game, literally no other mainstay 2D fighter has one)
-throw techs being 50-50s (just handle throws like every other game)
-pokes not having pushback (D1 and D3)
-buffers for specials being different than buffers for normals

Note this list isn't huge. Game is good.

It's not some huge secret that the majority of NRS players don't play other fighters. Aside from SonicFox and a small handful of others, what players have had success in other games? Not many. Playing lots of other games shows you just how polished NRS games are--but it also makes it painfully obvious which mechanics are outdated relics that need to be replaced/updated.
I don't see any problem with having a block button. It's a legacy mechanic, but it does also change the game because if you hold back to block then inputs out of block are different. Also you couldn't dash-block + wavedash without a button. Throw techs being 50/50s mean that characters lacking fast mids or mix-up have a presence up close (johnny cage). Pokes not having pushback, idk, and idk about buffers for specials vs. normals, but I don't necessarily see how those are "awful" either.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
I don't see any problem with having a block button. It's a legacy mechanic, but it does also change the game because if you hold back to block then inputs out of block are different. Also you couldn't dash-block + wavedash without a button. Throw techs being 50/50s mean that characters lacking fast mids or mix-up have a presence up close (johnny cage). Pokes not having pushback, idk, and idk about buffers for specials vs. normals, but I don't necessarily see how those are "awful" either.
All of the bolded is the problem with the gameplay: They're not needed and need to be updated. Tradition is just a binding mentality. There's no logical reason for a block button in a 2d fighter. The Scorpion's teleport excuse is lame because it used to be slower and easily crouched under. It used to be a primary anti-zoning tool and not a combo starter.

Not even Tekken, the game Boon is obsessed with has a block button. It's arbitrary to have to press two button just to block low and two different button commands to break throws. It works in Tekken because you can clearly see what type of throw is being used and characters fight from different angles (dodging). MK only has left and right to worry about. Logic, not just throwing things into the cauldron and calling it "different". They need to have logical application, which the above mechanics do not. The same can be said for how arbitrary it is to delay wake-up and counter from the ground.

Even the dial-a-combo system is conflicting with the purpose of neutral play, where it's more about memorization than reaction and reads. I know it's not going anywhere (facepalm), but can the game and it's characters not be all about who has the best strings? Please? Good gracious! Where are the ground/air 2-in-1 combos at? Where's interaction with specials vs specials and normal attacks vs specials? Special and normal attacks with unique attributes for neutral like how Jade's glow invalidates projectiles for a short time and back kicks that don't knockdown, but allow standing combos. There needs to be more of that type of nuance in strings, normals and specials. More branching points in strings with dash/special cancels, etc. It needs the back-n-forth play in every aspect and keeping players honest. That's neutral.

If the game is going to be based around neutral, a player should have the option of not relying on strings to succeed. Strings are not neutral play. They're the end result of winning neutral and predictable (memory-based) strings leads to a stagnated game.

There's really no purpose to Fatal Blows except to heavily hand-hold. Why not give each character unique traits at 30% or lower health? Something like the traits from Injustice. That would require actual skill instead of some auto-combo that does all the work for the player. Also, change breakaway into a MK 9 breaker. That way, players can break on the ground as well and not drop out with the chance to attack the aggressor right away. It goes right back to a full neutral position. And finally, lose the chip-kill. Make players earn the last hit. Those would be better (and more exciting) comeback mechanics.
 
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