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General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero Cyber Sub Zero petition!

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
So, are you winning with him? Because I'm winning with him. I may not be the best CSZ, but I'm winning with him.
Of course. Not as often as I used to for sure because he got neutered and when I do win, I have to work 5 times harder which leads to frustration. I'm not playing against randoms in online ranked either. The reality is that, if I don't have meter, my entire pressure game is gone if the opponent just blocks low. Why? Because my only starters that lead to combos are 111~iceball or B3~iceball. The B2 overhead isnt respected anymore if I don't have meter because it combos in nothing. And since I have to constantly choose between getting as much damage as possible (which isn't that much anyway) or risk getting even more scaling if I whiff DK or DS to get meter, it makes the amount of meter I get in a match suffer.
The question isn't a simple "are you winning with him? Yes? Then he's good enough"... that's an overly simplified analysis I expect from a person who doesn't really play CSZ.

You guys see me as an obstacle to buffs for CSZ. I think your line of thinking is believing in a pipe dream. I even signed your petition. I highly doubt that our petition will make any difference what-so-ever. I'm not blocking buffs. I'm trying to pep talk you into figuring out for yourself that he's still pretty good.
I don't see you as an obstacle at all. I don't want you to get that idea. I see you as a fellow MKX player, who sometimes plays CSZ against randoms in ranked, trying to tell me a character he knows superficially & thought was S+ tier, is still pretty good.
Let me be clear, CSZ is usable, you can win with EVERY character in the game no matter how shitty. But it doesn't mean the character wasn't unjustifiably fucked over. And fuck it, we aren't asking for much. Only make his iceball as fast as it was and make the recovery longer to avoid ppl spamming it full screen.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
When I played him today, I beat a good Goro pretty handily. I beat a solid Summoner. I beat a good Flame Fists. I beat a decent Royal Storm. Then, I lost a close set to a swaggy Ninjitsu Scorpion. Then, I lost a close set to a very twitchy GM. Then, I beat up on a pair of Tempests back to back. Everyone I played had heavy winning records..
The number of ppl in online rooms with insanely positive records that suck beyond belief is over 9000. (yup I used that meme)
Plus you are talking about people who, for all you know, arent used to playing against CSZ since he's only been out for 2 weeks. So your sample to illustrate your point is not representative.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
When I played him today, I beat a good Goro pretty handily. I beat a solid Summoner. I beat a good Flame Fists. I beat a decent Royal Storm. Then, I lost a close set to a swaggy Ninjitsu Scorpion. Then, I lost a close set to a very twitchy GM. Then, I beat up on a pair of Tempests back to back. Everyone I played had heavy winning records.

Then, I switched to Sun God - and tore up that same twitchy GM - before he switched to Cryo before rage quitting. Then, I beat a very good Goro player. Then, I lost a set to a very bad ass Fire BRC.

Do you guys really think I'm lobbying against CSZ? I'm just trying to tell you that he's still pretty good. I think if you could re-learn him, you would see what I'm trying to show you. You just gotta forget about how you played him before and go back to the drawing board. Keep the combos, but change the meta.

Sun God, I've been on since the beginning, but my CSZ isn't that far off of my SG.
Very long response for a post that didn't answer the question in my one line post you replied to.

However-

Sun God, I've been on since the beginning, but my CSZ isn't that far off of my SG.
Preceded by-

I play him a little though and I was having success zoning - and zoning isn't really my thing. I didn't lab. I just jumped online for player matches like I always do.
Makes it sound like you're capable of filling a hot air balloon.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Very long response for a post that didn't answer the question in my one line post you replied to.

However-



Preceded by-



Makes it sound like you're capable of filling a hot air balloon.
The only characters I've ever really labbed to play as has been Kotal Kahn, Predator, and Alien. It doesn't stop me from casually playing Jax, Jason, Triborg, Ermac, Kano, and Erron Black - and mostly winning with them.

The post was an attempt to show you where I'm coming from.

You guys are too busy lobbying for buffs to see that I'm just being straight with you.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
The number of ppl in online rooms with insanely positive records that suck beyond belief is over 9000. (yup I used that meme)
Plus you are talking about people who, for all you know, arent used to playing against CSZ since he's only been out for 2 weeks. So your sample to illustrate your point is not representative.
Can't argue with that. I'm not trying to paint a false picture. I'm not that great with him, but I'm beating comparable players with decent consistency.

They may not be great, but neither am I (at least not with CSZ) and I keep winning.

If you thought (like I do) that there is absolutely no chance that he gets buffed, would you still be holding fast to this argument?
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
The only characters I've ever really labbed to play as has been Kotal Kahn, Predator, and Alien. It doesn't stop me from casually playing Jax, Jason, Triborg, Ermac, Kano, and Erron Black - and mostly winning with them.

The post was an attempt to show you where I'm coming from.

You guys are too busy lobbying for buffs to see that I'm just being straight with you.
I see what you're trying to say. Hey. You ever hear of the Hydra? From Greek mythology? Well if you haven't, it's the origin of the saying, that if you cut off the head of the Hydra it would survive the injury and another one(s) will grow back in its place stronger than the last.

Vague? Well I'd rather not provoke Hercules again. :coffee:
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
You can know for sure though that I believe 100% in what I'm saying.

I'm also trying my best to walk you through my thought process. That's going to speak to readers better than, "He sucks now!"

He had a ton of tools. Now, those tools aren't as good now, but they are still there - and they still combine to create a pretty formidable arsenal.

If I thought he sucked, I would say so - but he doesn't.
i respect you as a member of this site, that some post i enjoy reading from time to time.


im not trying to be mean in any way GAV, i just must state, that you said you just jumped online and found he was A+ - B-.

ok let me say this in a nice way:

i am a Triborg main, im with him no matter what.

and with that i didn't just jump online, i labbed the hell out of all the borgs!

I played out every counter poke, every backstep, every tool i could think of, as well as many sugesstions on this site through PM's, and Online practice.

He lost almost everything in his neutral from this patch alone.

the main fact is he can't safeley setup Drones and convert on many of his great combos.

he lost alot of damage to those combos.

his main sorce of damage buff has been toned down greatly.

his starters have been neutered.

F13 can't freeze.
B1 can't freeze.
B3U4D3/4 is very unsafe, and its not hit confirm-able.
Midscreen HTB is Armorable, backdashable now.

almost every starter thats not hit confirmable is severaly punishable. and for what mediocre damage?

how does he not suck?

main point, name 5 characters that are top or top mid that you would pick over him, tell me how they mixup worse than he does, have worse neutral, worse reach, worse armor, and those who do less damage midscreen meterless and metered than he does now on top of all that.

if you can supply 5 characters that meet those requirements then ill bite.

but since there is not 5 characters that have worse mixup's than he does, worse neutral, worse damage midscreen, and even greater punishable wakeups then him. i just can't.

im not saying he is bottom tier, because frankly we don't really know yet. but i can tell you, he definitely doesn't look top or top mid. he has a struggle with matchups, and lets just say it doesn't look good for Triborg right now.

Can't argue with that. I'm not trying to paint a false picture. I'm not that great with him, but I'm beating comparable players with decent consistency.

They may not be great, but neither am I (at least not with CSZ) and I keep winning.

If you thought (like I do) that there is absolutely no chance that he gets buffed, would you still be holding fast to this argument?
perhaps its because those players you have been playing that you said are not great, are making many mistakes they shouldn't, can't it be that they don't know what the matchup is, since he is so new with so many changes?

every time i use a new character even playing against high level players, i do great!

i win almost every game, and thats because they are not used to the matchup, they don't recognize the mixups, the animations, the setups, the visual Q's, the sounds on screen.

and online, is a hole nother story.

i played a friend 30 sets in a row before he realized Cyrax htb setup off Standing 4 was backdashable.

this was pre patch.

he screemed every single match that he had no options. he was doomed, he couldn't block, and i kept telling him, find a way out, don't block it.

set 30 he backdashes.

my point here is, online players don't always know what to do against the matchup, even when they are familar with it.

and online FT1ers sure as hell don't know: in fact i think they won't even play you 5 times if they are losing, and they certainly won't stay on the same character to learn the matchup.
 
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I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Pre-patch Quan WAS fine.
Right. But CSZ last patch wasn't. You really have no idea.
Summoner was S, but he was very beatable. Predator, Tanya, and CSZ weren't, hence the nerfs.
Summoner was nerfed as well though lol so that doesn't even make sense.

But regardless, if you think CSZ was unbeatable last patch, I challenge you to say why. What was so strong about him? What is it that you think he had? Better yet, can you tell me what effect the changes of the first patch actually had on the gameplay showcased in REO's day 1 video? If you can't answer these questions then you shouldn't be talking about him



And all this talk about you dominating with CSZ ... mind sharing some footage? So we can see both the caliber of these players, and also try to pick up on whatever it is you are doing that the rest of us haven't evolved our gameplay to yet
 

14K

Warrior
I mean this is all for not, all this "what ifs" a really good player played CZ0 against another really good player im sure CZ0 would do fine?

This already happened and in a tornament setting, Madzin ( Probably 1 of the only successful Sub Zero Players ) Pulled out CZ0 against HoneyBee at Hypespotting this weekend, And that match tells so much of the story.

Madzin presided to win 3 clean Matchs against Honeybee that had 0 clue how to deal with Cz0, Madzin did all the newly unsafe things in the world and HoneyBee had no clue how to even block it, Fastforward a couple mins to Honeybee completely destroying Madzins CZ0 because it literally took him ( a top player ) 3 matchs to adjust and preside to destroy him... Madzin went from having a hard time wining to being completely recked in a matter of a couple mins... So we no longer can remain here speculating that if a pro player pick this character he would be successful, because a pro player already did, and he switched so fast to Kotal that it left my head spinning...

Unfortunately the truth of the matter is that this character has become inconsequential, even for a loyalist there are 0 reasons to pick him up in a competitive setting, any pro that actually wants to win will avoid this character at all costs
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Summoner was S, but he was very beatable.
The fact that you think Pre-Patch Summoner and Pre-Patch CSZ were even on the same level says it all. Heck, Pre-Patch Summoner was one of the most insane FG characters I've ever seen and yiu say he was "bearable".

You were probably winning your random online matches on MU unfamiliarity, a lot of people don't have the character or understand the game.

Also, you say you haven't labbed him? Guess what, we have.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Watching Glue play him last night...I fear for when you guys really get a handle on CSZ. Shit will be mad work, though. #GitRDun
 

14K

Warrior
Watching Glue play him last night...I fear for when you guys really get a handle on CSZ. Shit will be mad work, though. #GitRDun
Mind linking it? would like to see that

EDIT: Nvm i had him on twitch i forgot, he doesnt have past broadcasts up ggs.

PS: @UsedForGlue bro you gotta get those past broadcasts up so guys like me that are always working can watch you ;)
 
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Sure, a lot of characters got nerfed, some heavier than others. What I'm not understanding is why would they think it's okay to nerf characters in such damaging ways, than to fix hit boxes? I kid you guys not, I have gotten hit by some ridiculous things online like jumping over Jason and getting punched by his standing 1 while I'm RIGHT OVER his head. Apparently THAT'S okay, but not an ice ball or the ridiculous other unnecessary downgrades? Are you for real?
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
The fact that you think Pre-Patch Summoner and Pre-Patch CSZ were even on the same level says it all. Heck, Pre-Patch Summoner was one of the most insane FG characters I've ever seen and yiu say he was "bearable".

You were probably winning your random online matches on MU unfamiliarity, a lot of people don't have the character or understand the game.

Also, you say you haven't labbed him? Guess what, we have.
Understood.

The difference in opinion lies in this. You think you're playing him correctly. I think you learned to play him correctly before and its blinding you on how to play him now.

I know this - as a casual zoner, he kicks ass.

Good thing M2Dave showed us how to play Tremor or the Tremor downplaying would be the flavor. Instead, its CSZ - until someone notable proves it one way or the other.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
i respect you as a member of this site, that some post i enjoy reading from time to time.


im not trying to be mean in any way GAV, i just must state, that you said you just jumped online and found he was A+ - B-.

ok let me say this in a nice way:

i am a Triborg main, im with him no matter what.

and with that i didn't just jump online, i labbed the hell out of all the borgs!

I played out every counter poke, every backstep, every tool i could think of, as well as many sugesstions on this site through PM's, and Online practice.

He lost almost everything in his neutral from this patch alone.

the main fact is he can't safeley setup Drones and convert on many of his great combos.

he lost alot of damage to those combos.

his main sorce of damage buff has been toned down greatly.

his starters have been neutered.

F13 can't freeze.
B1 can't freeze.
B3U4D3/4 is very unsafe, and its not hit confirm-able.
Midscreen HTB is Armorable, backdashable now.

almost every starter thats not hit confirmable is severaly punishable. and for what mediocre damage?

how does he not suck?

main point, name 5 characters that are top or top mid that you would pick over him, tell me how they mixup worse than he does, have worse neutral, worse reach, worse armor, and those who do less damage midscreen meterless and metered than he does now on top of all that.

if you can supply 5 characters that meet those requirements then ill bite.

but since there is not 5 characters that have worse mixup's than he does, worse neutral, worse damage midscreen, and even greater punishable wakeups then him. i just can't.

im not saying he is bottom tier, because frankly we don't really know yet. but i can tell you, he definitely doesn't look top or top mid. he has a struggle with matchups, and lets just say it doesn't look good for Triborg right now.



perhaps its because those players you have been playing that you said are not great, are making many mistakes they shouldn't, can't it be that they don't know what the matchup is, since he is so new with so many changes?

every time i use a new character even playing against high level players, i do great!

i win almost every game, and thats because they are not used to the matchup, they don't recognize the mixups, the animations, the setups, the visual Q's, the sounds on screen.

and online, is a hole nother story.

i played a friend 30 sets in a row before he realized Cyrax htb setup off Standing 4 was backdashable.

this was pre patch.

he screemed every single match that he had no options. he was doomed, he couldn't block, and i kept telling him, find a way out, don't block it.

set 30 he backdashes.

my point here is, online players don't always know what to do against the matchup, even when they are familar with it.

and online FT1ers sure as hell don't know: in fact i think they won't even play you 5 times if they are losing, and they certainly won't stay on the same character to learn the matchup.
Good post.

What I'm saying is that I think there is a way to play him effectively that the CSZ mains are oblivious to right now because its much different than how they are used to playing him successfully.

I don't look to exchange with CSZ. I either want lots of space - or guaranteed hits. If I think it will be blocked, I don't put it out there - except for his F12, F2 - or his meter burned slide. Even B2 and his freeze, I only use to beat out pokes. Otherwise, I'm all about the ice ball at far range.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Right. But CSZ last patch wasn't. You really have no idea.

Summoner was nerfed as well though lol so that doesn't even make sense.

But regardless, if you think CSZ was unbeatable last patch, I challenge you to say why. What was so strong about him? What is it that you think he had? Better yet, can you tell me what effect the changes of the first patch actually had on the gameplay showcased in REO's day 1 video? If you can't answer these questions then you shouldn't be talking about him



And all this talk about you dominating with CSZ ... mind sharing some footage? So we can see both the caliber of these players, and also try to pick up on whatever it is you are doing that the rest of us haven't evolved our gameplay to yet
I'll see what I can put together.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Understood.

The difference in opinion lies in this. You think you're playing him correctly. I think you learned to play him correctly before and its blinding you on how to play him now.

I know this - as a casual zoner, he kicks ass.

Good thing M2Dave showed us how to play Tremor or the Tremor downplaying would be the flavor. Instead, its CSZ - until someone notable proves it one way or the other.
Lol me and like a million other people were the ones telling m2dave that Tremor was good. I was yelling at him that prepatch crystalline is probably broke when he was calling it a useless gimmick.

I'm somewhat known to upplay whatever character I'm playing, and I can't see CSZ possibly being anything above mid tier in his current state.
 

14K

Warrior
Lol me and like a million other people were the ones telling m2dave that Tremor was good. I was yelling at him that prepatch crystalline is probably broke when he was calling it a useless gimmick.

I'm somewhat known to upplay whatever character I'm playing, and I can't see CSZ possibly being anything above mid tier in his current state.
He could have taken any nr of nerfs even to his damage and i thing he would be just fine, but nerfing his starters is just NRS drinking the silly juice...

The nerf to Divekick totally agree with it, perfectly acceptable and even warranted, many here said so already.
Some damage scaling, i would be totally fine with it, dont think he needed it by any means but i could totally live with it, not even worth crying over
The nerf to his HTBs, the very first hotfix, no one complained about it, it was totally acceptable
Even some of the Hit adv. i mean sure why not...Oo

Now nerfing his starters is just stupid specially the F13... Honestly what ppl are asking for here is not ludacris, its not going to make him broke, its literally a well thought out request... He still wouldnt be able to spam Iceballs but he would have his starters back, this seems like a perfectly acceptable request from the CS0 community...

The problem with this patch is that NRS destroyed this character so that there wouldnt be a single chance of something possibly to good/broken showin up at Season 3, because of how many sponsors the event has they dont want to look bad like it happened on numerous occasions at previous tournaments, because unlike random majors, they have a dog in the race at season 3 so they dont want to look shitty, and characters with generic playstyles that revolve around HTBs are always likely to have broken stuff in them... Guess what say hello to Johnny Cage the new HTB machine...
 

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Understood.

The difference in opinion lies in this. You think you're playing him correctly. I think you learned to play him correctly before and its blinding you on how to play him now.

I know this - as a casual zoner, he kicks ass.

Good thing M2Dave showed us how to play Tremor or the Tremor downplaying would be the flavor. Instead, its CSZ - until someone notable proves it one way or the other.
I do completely understand what you're saying, and your point has merit.

But I will say this, is it acceptable that this has happened numerous times now? Where NRS are so incompetent with balance that the characters are a total mess on release. Then, instead of making the simplest decisions to solve the stupid problems, they either buff them even more, completely destroy them or completely revamp the character.

Whether it was for the better or worse, this is just stupid. Better decisions should have been made and people are allowed to vent about it, it just helps.

But thats a discussion for another time, about CSZ now, he is a pretty good zoner against characters with poor mobility. But his best way to stop yolo run ins or advancing moves was F13, which no longer links into iceball, so he's getting miniscule damage off it whether he spends any meter or not. This means the risk/reward just isn't in his favor.

You can apply this thinking to every situation with CSZ though, no matter how you play him the risk reward is never in his favor. You can try to rushdown, zone, counter zone or whatever and it doesn't matter, because he's always getting out damaged.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Can't argue with that. I'm not trying to paint a false picture. I'm not that great with him, but I'm beating comparable players with decent consistency.They may not be great, but neither am I (at least not with CSZ) and I keep winning.
Again, you may not be trying to paint a false picture but you are. You admit you barely use him. I barely use Mileena so it would come off arrogant of me to go to the mileena forum and tell them about their character. Whether you realize it or not, this is what you're doing. You aren't great and are beating ppl that aren't great either....this invalidates whatever you're trying to argue. You are the equivalent of a person who took a high school physics class trying to tell graduate physics student about advanced physics theory. You can't and that's why you're being met with some aggressiveness.

If you thought (like I do) that there is absolutely no chance that he gets buffed, would you still be holding fast to this argument?
Eventually if nothing gets done, i just won't play the game. I was bored of it already and CSZ brought back some interest and now it's gone again.

The difference in opinion lies in this. You think you're playing him correctly. I think you learned to play him correctly before and its blinding you on how to play him now.
This is a vapid statement, no offense, because you can say this about EVERY bottom tier character. But the reality is that there are and always will be shit characters. What also makes this a vapid statement is that it's coming from someone who barely plays the character and had some success in zoning (which must mean you play against really bad players because CSZ isn't a zoner in this state, as I explained in my previous post)
 

JORGIE

Noob
CSZ is very bad I was maining him until this last patch hit. If anybody honestly believes this character is good and viable, FT5 me on the PSN using him and I'll demonstrate to you just how bad he is by shutting his whole game plan down.

Put me in a corner? Lol I'll jump out. Might even wakeup grab you to be a dick.
Try to zone me out with ice ball or b2xxiceball? Lol I'm teleporting on reaction to that slow ass bullshit. Or I'll use D'vorah and tbag you while walking to avoid it.
Mix me up? Lol how are you going to get in? Spamming iceball doesn't work, b1 is reactable and I have no reason not to be blocking low.
"But Jorge I have divekick!" a fully punishable move that leads to nothing on hit? Better hope that shit doesn't connect.

this character is dead stop trying to upplay hot garbage
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Again, you may not be trying to paint a false picture but you are. You admit you barely use him. I barely use Mileena so it would come off arrogant of me to go to the mileena forum and tell them about their character. Whether you realize it or not, this is what you're doing. You aren't great and are beating ppl that aren't great either....this invalidates whatever you're trying to argue. You are the equivalent of a person who took a high school physics class trying to tell graduate physics student about advanced physics theory. You can't and that's why you're being met with some aggressiveness.


Eventually if nothing gets done, i just won't play the game. I was bored of it already and CSZ brought back some interest and now it's gone again.



This is a vapid statement, no offense, because you can say this about EVERY bottom tier character. But the reality is that there are and always will be shit characters. What also makes this a vapid statement is that it's coming from someone who barely plays the character and had some success in zoning (which must mean you play against really bad players because CSZ isn't a zoner in this state, as I explained in my previous post)
OK, lets say you are 100% right about the character and I am 100% wrong.

I'm not conceding now. This is just to move the conversation forward...

If this is the case, what hope is there? Do you really think NRS will undo some of what they have done?
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Do you really think NRS will undo some of what they have done?
I'd like to think so. People have bitched about stuff in the past and characters were nerfed/buffed so although the chances are slim, I still have hope. Especially since all we are asking for is the iceball to be returned to 21 frames and have a longer recovery.
 
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