General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero Cyber Sub Zero petition!

[GAV]

Where does humility fit in all of this? Where does knowing when you just dont know anything about a character fit in? Because you seem to pretend like you know enough to argue.

I know I have a good plan...

Ideas are finite. Aspects are infinite.

Good ideas (or plans) are more likely to come from experts, but once in a while - a beginner gets lucky - and has a good idea.

In this instance, this CSZ's good idea is a plan.

 

[babalook]

This character is shit, end of discussion

 

[GAV]

Depends on the subject. If you just started playing a character, it's arrogant of you to think you can teach people who main him anything advanced. Maybe you can, but in this present CSZ case, you are completely and utterly wrong and have been explained in detail and in many different way why you are wrong. Yet you keep regurgitating the useless argument that you beat some randoms online.
I've trained in psychology and neuroscience for many, many, many years. And if a first year tried argue with me about an advanced topic in neuroscience in which I am an expert of, while he has never read a study and is going on a hunch, he's not teaching me jack shit. You seem to live in a lala land where every experience you have is valid and that's a bias you see a lot and I've studied this bias a few times during my psychology undergrad.

I'm no psychologist or neuroscientist, but I have learned not to discard anyone's input. Sometimes even a beginner can have a perspective unique to your own.

I really do think I need to re-iterate, I'm not trying to block any changes to CSZ that would help out the variation. I even signed the petition.

I feel like this is becoming very similar to "Green Eggs and Ham."

Kindred - "I do not like your plan, GAV my newb friend. I will not try it - and that is the end."

GAV - "I am nothing if not resilient..."

 

[GAV]

the only way to understand something properly is knowing how to recognize bad input

Bad input generally comes from an agenda.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Just agree to disagree guys lol

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Bad input generally comes from an agenda.

it just as commonly comes from ignorance

 

[GAV]

it just as commonly comes from ignorance

Years ago, kindergarten students were give a test for out-of-the-box thinking. 99% scored as genius level out of the box thinkers. Then, years later - as sophomores - those same students took a very similar test - just tweaked to make it more grade level appropriate. Only 1% scored as genius level out of the box thinkers. Since kindergarten students generally know much less than sophomores, why does this make perfect sense?

Beginners tend to paint with a broad brush, meaning their perspective is very wide and inclusive. As beginners start to learn, they learn to narrow their scope in order to better understand and categorize what they are looking at. As they progress, they tend to continue narrowing and categorizing. Eventually, they cut certain parts out all together. Good students don't look for answers; they look for THE answer. This is why beginners are often great sources of input for experts, since they look at it completely differently.

I'm not saying that ignorance is a strength, but smart men don't easily discard input hard thought on - even from a relatively ignorant beginner. The man with an agenda will always win out over the ignorant one, but the savvy man knows that the ignorant man isn't trying to lead anyone anywhere - and is just giving what he knows from his heart - and that the man with an agenda is just sharing parts of what he knows to lead you down the path that best suits his intentions.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Years ago, kindergarten students were give a test for out-of-the-box thinking. 99% scored as genius level out of the box thinkers. Then, years later - as sophomores - those same students took a very similar test - just tweaked to make it more grade level appropriate. Only 1% scored as genius level out of the box thinkers. Since kindergarten students generally know much less than sophomores, why does this make perfect sense?

Beginners tend to paint with a broad brush, meaning their perspective is very wide and inclusive. As beginners start to learn, they learn to narrow their scope in order to better understand and categorize what they are looking at. As they progress, they tend to continue narrowing and categorizing. Eventually, they cut certain parts out all together. Good students don't look for answers; they look for THE answer. This is why beginners are often great sources of input for experts, since they look at it completely differently.

I'm not saying that ignorance is a strength, but smart men don't easily discard input hard thought on - even from a relatively ignorant beginner. The man with an agenda will always win out over the ignorant one, but the savvy man knows that the ignorant man isn't trying to lead anyone anywhere - and is just giving what he knows from his heart - and that the man with an agenda is just sharing parts of what he knows to lead you down the path that best suits his intentions.

yes, yes, lets ignore all the adults who have researched and labbed the character before jumping to random unfounded conclusions, instead lets go with the children who haven't even taken the character to practice mode yet and think that their opinion based on actually nothing is equally as valid

you sound just like someone trying to justify their stances who doesn't believe in global warming and hates vaccines, there will be opinions on either side of ANY argument but there is absolutely nothing sensible about what you are saying.


seriously, what you are doing at the moment is possibly the most annoying thing I've ever seen someone do on this site. Just drop it, you are being annoying as fuck and you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, the explanations you keep giving make no sense and just get absolutely destroyed logically, you REFUSE to post gameplay videos and your only supporting logic is anecdotal recounts that you just won't stop repeating. Just give this thread a rest, we've got it, you haven't labbed the character but you have a hunch he's fine. This is well understand by everybody at this point. You are not going to change a single person's opinion like this.

 

[babalook]

How is this conversation still going, anyone that's spent a significant amount of time with CSZ knows his tools combine in a fairly limited number of ways, there is no secret tech that we have yet to find that will help him out of bottom tier. It doesn't matter if you turtle or rush down with him, the character is straight up shit now.

 

[boba_buster]

I dunno bout anyone else but I feel like I just wasted 10 mins of my life reading the last few pages of this thread.

 

[Kindred]

I'm no psychologist or neuroscientist, but I have learned not to discard anyone's input. Sometimes even a beginner can have a perspective unique to your own.

Yes but the crucial difference here is this: You arent providing anything new. You're ideas are coming from the perspective of a beginner that has only played against other beginners. Your perspective doesnt apply to higher level play, where balance decisions are taken because it falls apart at that level. Simple as that.

Kindred - "I do not like your plan, GAV my newb friend. I will not try it - and that is the end."

I thought u said u read my posts carefully? I mentioned that I did try your approach and against people that are good it fails.

 

[Kindred]

The only way to give yourself fully to something is to take input from others - even beginners.

What if a kid comes up to you and tells you 5x5=100 ... you don't take this type of input because he obviously doesnt know.
You're coming in to CSZ mains telling them he's fine because you beat randoms online and never labed him ... 5x5=100

 

[14K]

So Against my better Judgment and my own advise i decided to pick this game up again and try to play CSZ, i figured his a piece of garbage, but im no stranger to playing the bottom of the barrel, and regardless of how bad NRS is at caring for their own games, i still enjoy this game a lot so i went online.

After fighting some mid lvl ppl wining here and there, losing pretty hard on most, i started feeling the river of salt rain down on me the more i played him...
When i was about to just stop, i catch VakPhoenix and his D Vorah in the PM rotation, and i was like what the hell, ill give it a shot, went for a first to 10 configuration, where D vorahs pressure presided to destroy me 10-0, now given i was already pretty salty and not really playing with my head, was more just going thru the motions, but thats no excuse, he destroyed me, i know D vorah somewhat well, i know where to find her gaps, what hits to take or not to take and what i can get away with or not, so im not helpless in that MU, but god D vorah steamrolls Cyber Sub, Without F13 as a starter the few opportunities i had to punish something simply feel short with the t-rex like reach of 111 ( Queen of the MK T-rexs Jacqui would be proud ) and the newly nerfed Iceball just meant that my B2xxIceball whiff punish on opponents trying to jump in on me no longer worked. Online lag didnt help but our connection wasnt that bad to complain about, it was pretty average.. So all in all, this character has some solid Losing 7-3s..

You guys wanna know what really drove me to salt city during that play session? i fought this Ermac MOS guy, a character i know inside out considering Ermac was my main up until kp2 and this moment said it all to me... near full screen distance from each other i toss an Iceball, almost a couple frames after he tosses his Soul ball, i get hit and bound, he presides to block my iceball and teleport to full combo me... This moment right here really said it all...

 

[supernumian]

So Against my better Judgment and my own advise i decided to pick this game up again and try to play CSZ, i figured his a piece of garbage, but im no stranger to playing the bottom of the barrel, and regardless of how bad NRS is at caring for their own games, i still enjoy this game a lot so i went online.

After fighting some mid lvl ppl wining here and there, losing pretty hard on most, i started feeling the river of salt rain down on me the more i played him...
When i was about to just stop, i catch VakPhoenix and his D Vorah in the PM rotation, and i was like what the hell, ill give it a shot, went for a first to 10 configuration, where D vorahs pressure presided to destroy me 10-0, now given i was already pretty salty and not really playing with my head, was more just going thru the motions, but thats no excuse, he destroyed me, i know D vorah somewhat well, i know where to find her gaps, what hits to take or not to take and what i can get away with or not, so im not helpless in that MU, but god D vorah steamrolls Cyber Sub, Without F13 as a starter the few opportunities i had to punish something simply feel short with the t-rex like reach of 111 ( Queen of the MK T-rexs Jacqui would be proud ) and the newly nerfed Iceball just meant that my B2xxIceball whiff punish on opponents trying to jump in on me no longer worked. Online lag didnt help but our connection wasnt that bad to complain about, it was pretty average.. So all in all, this character has some solid Losing 7-3s..

You guys wanna know what really drove me to salt city during that play session? i fought this Ermac MOS guy, a character i know inside out considering Ermac was my main up until kp2 and this moment said it all to me... near full screen distance from each other i toss an Iceball, almost a couple frames after he tosses his Soul ball, i get hit and bound, he presides to block my iceball and teleport to full combo me... This moment right here really said it all...

I feel your pain.
One of the most interesting character in the game reduced to this is unfair.

 

[GAV]

yes, yes, lets ignore all the adults who have researched and labbed the character before jumping to random unfounded conclusions, instead lets go with the children who haven't even taken the character to practice mode yet and think that their opinion based on actually nothing is equally as valid

you sound just like someone trying to justify their stances who doesn't believe in global warming and hates vaccines, there will be opinions on either side of ANY argument but there is absolutely nothing sensible about what you are saying.


seriously, what you are doing at the moment is possibly the most annoying thing I've ever seen someone do on this site. Just drop it, you are being annoying as fuck and you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, the explanations you keep giving make no sense and just get absolutely destroyed logically, you REFUSE to post gameplay videos and your only supporting logic is anecdotal recounts that you just won't stop repeating. Just give this thread a rest, we've got it, you haven't labbed the character but you have a hunch he's fine. This is well understand by everybody at this point. You are not going to change a single person's opinion like this.

If this isn't an elitist's attitude, then what actually is?

All I'm saying is just look at what I've said and try it.

I've given over on the issue of balancing. I even signed the petition.

I'm not saying that those that know less know more because that just makes no sense.

What I'm saying is that no one can be an expert on all aspects of something. Everyone has blind spots. Everyone looks at things differently.

Sometimes, a unique perspective can come from an unexpected source. I don't want to stretch it out through stories from my own life that only have meaning to me, but time and time again - I have learned things from beginners in subjects that I am considered an expert in.

 

[GAV]

Yes but the crucial difference here is this: You arent providing anything new. You're ideas are coming from the perspective of a beginner that has only played against other beginners. Your perspective doesnt apply to higher level play, where balance decisions are taken because it falls apart at that level. Simple as that.


I thought u said u read my posts carefully? I mentioned that I did try your approach and against people that are good it fails.

You said that you had already thought of that. My endgame was mostly getting them to jump and air-to-airing them with his J1 and Dive Kick. Soft damage, I know - but it won exchanges and kept extending matches. I keep meaning to make a vid, but I only had a short time to play yesterday - and only played guys from here.

Years ago, I trained Randy Moss (his Madden name, not the real RM) in Madden. He had a great offense, but couldn't play D. By most, he was considered just a good online player. I excelled on D, so I taught him my D - inside and out - and I explained the nuances that I thought made it work. That year, he won a Madden 07 Challenge.

Years later, he hit me back - and taught me the nuances that he thought made his offense work. That year, I came in runner up at the Philly Madden Challenge. Now, before I helped him - he was just a good online player. When he helped me, I was an over-the-hill Madden player who was just a good online player. We were both able to help one another to elevate our games. The reason it worked was because we saw different aspects of the game clearly - and we were able to get the other person to see what we saw clearly just like we did. We were both "Madden mains", but we both had very clear blindspots that we were able to clear up for one another.

How can progression happen if you already think you know everything?

Even experts don't know everything.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

What on earth is going on here?

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

This is a CSZ thread

 

[I GOT HANDS]

its a philosophical life advice thread now

 

[GAV]

What if a kid comes up to you and tells you 5x5=100 ... you don't take this type of input because he obviously doesnt know.
You're coming in to CSZ mains telling them he's fine because you beat randoms online and never labed him ... 5x5=100

Fighting games aren't as straight forward as a math problem.

I've actually given up on saying he's fine and believe that he most likely isn't.

I still think I've found a good way to play him. If I could get my execution up, I think I can surprise some people with him.

I think you guys still think I have an agenda though and I don't know how to remove that doubt.

 

[Shaikhuzzaman]

Fighting games aren't as straight forward as a math problem.

I've actually given up on saying he's fine and believe that he most likely isn't.

I still think I've found a good way to play him. If I could get my execution up, I think I can surprise some people with him.

I think you guys still think I have an agenda though and I don't know how to remove that doubt.

CSZ is not very good. Let's move on

 

[ThePunisher026]

I sat here and read the responses that some of you guys put on here, and a lot of you guys don't even realize that by some of the things you all are saying, is really just helping what us Cyber Sub players have been upset about in the first place. Typically going into this, I knew there would be people saying "It's hopeless. It's stupid. They'll never fix it" so on and so on. But you'll never know unless you try and we won't stop trying. B1 ice ball string doesn't connect. B3 ice ball string doesn't connect. F1 3 ice ball string, doesn't connect. Even though human Sub Zero has more startup frames, for some odd reason, it still connects with more strings than Cyber Sub's does. So I ask you all, why not? If you all don't care about the character, why shouldn't he have a faster ice ball? You guys shouldn't mind it one bit!

 

[RM Ree]

Awfully quiet in the CSZ discussion board for this kind of thread. I'm aware he's... "Not very good," to put it gently. But before we sign a petition, we should come together as a community and pull as many threads as we can find with this kharacter. Look for tech, strategy, MU's, etc instead of tunneling into the ice ball nerf. We might find something amazing.

If we're going to demand NRS put in work, we should put in an equal amount to show them why this ice ball is as terrible for his meta as he seems to be. Many hands make light work guys.

 

[ThePunisher026]

Awfully quiet in the CSZ discussion board for this kind of thread. I'm aware he's... "Not very good," to put it gently. But before we sign a petition, we should come together as a community and pull as many threads as we can find with this kharacter. Look for tech, strategy, MU's, etc instead of tunneling into the ice ball nerf. We might find something amazing.

If we're going to demand NRS put in work, we should put in an equal amount to show them why this ice ball is as terrible for his meta as he seems to be. Many hands make light work guys.

@RM Ree Very true, and honestly I've already done that. There's a lot of things I did find out, but the more I learned, the more things that are just weird. For example: F13 ice ball, B1 ice ball, and B3 ice ball only works on SOME characters like Erron Black but it doesn't work on a Mileena, Cassie or Takeda. The B1 ice ball, B3 ice ball, and F13 ice ball, only really connect against Goro. What fun is that when only some combos work depending on who you're playing against? He feels like a situational character now. Too much meter gets burned for simple things and all of his damage is in his drone support. With an ice ball that's already hard to catch, you have to almost gamble opportunities to call a drone out. On top of that, the length of how long the opponent is frozen was also reduced so there's almost no time to call a drone. Maybe you guys will have better luck than I.

Truthfully, I don't mind the damage output being reduced, or certain strikes no longer being plus on block. That's fine because that was really unfair on so many levels. The ONLY issue is the Ice ball start up frames.

 

[babalook]

This character only truly excelled in the corner, fixing his iceball won't save him from being bottom tier. Before this nerfed, I had a strong feeling that as the game and people's knowledge of the MU progressed, CSZ was going to be located at upper mid tier. He wasn't nearly as good as some people thought he was.