What's new

General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero Cyber Sub Zero petition!

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
The Kenshi community is like the Mileena community before she was buffed to potentially #1.

Kenshi is not bad. He's good, just good. Do not buff this character like he's bad. Same with the borg boys.

None of these characters are super C tier unviable bums. They're just not as good as the rest of the cast.
except for CSZ I agree
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Let me clarify and say that I don't know what i'm talking about, when it comes to CSZ.

But Kenshi and the other Borgs are not bad. Lets not make them the next Mileenas.
hell lets not make CSZ one either, he was undeniably OP when he was first released, so far that I refused to play him, he definitely doesn't need to be at that level

But I think a lot of people don't understand how much impact the Triborg nerfs had on him, and finding a way around his HTB which was already armorable (unlike Cyrax's, Quan's, etc) also made him much less broken than we thought he was (was still extremely strong tho)
 

Zabru

My blade is broken damn right better than yours!
Let me clarify and say that I don't know what i'm talking about, when it comes to CSZ.

But Kenshi and the other Borgs are not bad. Lets not make them the next Mileenas.
Except for balanced Kenshi and possessed is ok at best, never good.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Except for balanced Kenshi and possessed is ok at best, never good.
Do you even play other characters? Play a character like Cassie Cage. You'll be missing that multi hitting armor that nets you more than 30 percent, sends them fullscreen, where you have projectiles to throw at them.

Great jump 1, good mids, good D4, great damage + the multi hitting armor that launches for great damage, projectiles. Every character, besides Mileena and Alien, are missing stuff. Erron Black is missing a good mid, just like how Kenshi is missing 50/50 launchers.

You can't just keep downplaying a character because he lacks 50/50s. They made him faster, he still has good damage and projectiles. His spacing is pretty good with jump 1, B1 and D4. If 50/50s were everything, Sonic wouldn't have won a majority of his matches at EVO with Kitana, and Tempest Kung Lao wouldn't have been top 3 for 80% of the game's life.

Oh yeah, he has a bad backdash. So does Kung Lao. Sonya and Scorpion have backdashes that legitimately do not work in a lot of cases.

Is he probably bottom 10 or even bottom 5? Sure, but that doesn't mean that a character is bad on this game. Characters have been getting steadily nerfed. All you have to do is try another character to see that. You'll be missing a lot of stuff that Kenshi has.

coughunlessyouplayMileenacough
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Try having a convo with someone who knows very little about a character and insists that beating random people online is a valid way to assess balance...I can understand why they became a bit aggressive. I've been repeating myself like 5 times and it's as if GAV is ignoring my posts. Still I'm trying to be civil because i dont think he's doing it to be an ass or anything.
I've read everything you said and didn't just glaze over it to get back to my argument, but gave it careful consideration. On most things, we agree.

We both a agree I was being a troll with the memes early on. We just disagree on whether they were funny.
We both agree that CSZ is an awesome character. We just disagree on whether he can be made to work or not anymore.

Here's what we really disagree upon, so chime in on this...

GAV - If I can win with him with zero practice against online players, there is something in what I'm doing that may translate in higher level play.

Kindred - You believe that only through high level play can answers be found for high level play.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
GAV is being pretty abysmal in here lets be honest

Hasn't even labbed the character and decided to not only tell people how fine he is, literally off a hunch, but make memes calling everyone who feels otherwise tier whores and babies whining to NRS
The memes were meant as a joke.

If I thought there were any hope of any change going forward, I wouldn't have made the memes.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Lol man you can't keep using this argument. I could probably take any 5-minute bottom tier into ranked matches and get a positive record. Unless you're beating top players with a character, it doesn't mean anything about how good the character is. And even at the high levels it's not necessarily indicative of how good a character is. But you can't just be playing randoms and say a character's fine because you're winning
Fair enough. I would agree 100% if I were all swaggin out in those matches, but my CSZ is just as scrubby and I keep winning.

My argument isn't to assess things through scrubby play, just that there is something to my plan going in.

Is frame data knowledge that strong? Because that is my only advantage. These guys have at least practiced who they are playing with.

I looked over CSZ's movelist, moved around a little, and did a few moves. That was the extent of my practice.

I knew the frame data going in...

@Dankster Morgan
 

14K

Noob
Beyond the initial trolling, which was a little over-the-top, but I'll do that for laughs sometimes - I really am trying to help.

I want to see Triborg in tournaments. I love watching high level play with all characters, but especially with Triborg. To me, its pure hype.
Your not going to unfortunately, i know of 2 pro players that actually still use this character, and both of them have/had new mains already, and their both European, that is UsedforGlue and Madzin, both of them openly said they moved on and only keep him as a pocket, so unless some tortured soul decides to pick up this pile of bolts and screws, that wont happen unfortunately.

But for the sake of argument lets analyze CSZ with what standards are needed in this game for a character to range from C all the way to S

For anyone that has no interest in my opinion or wants to skip this wall text evaluation from me plz do so, if you wish to comment or discuss this please i urge you to read this in its full entirety in order to avoid miscommunication, Thank you guys.

So lets begin, a Character most have at least the some of the following qualities to be even considerable of mid tier:
1.Good OH Low pressure
2.Good Zoning
3.Good pressure overall (including how good his Mids are)
4.Meter Building
5.Good Reversals
6.Good poking game
7.Good Mix ups (lets say this in the CSZ case has HTBs)
8.Mobility
9.How easily can open the opponent up (as in Punishing whifs and stuff of the sort)
10.And last but not least, damage output

So given this standards Lets see how CSZ fairs on the different categories: (this is subject to my opinion and factual experience from myself only)

1. Good OH Low pressure: its barely there anymore, the fact that meterless his options range from only 1 comboable low and his 111, if you do not have meter ( something cyber Sub doesnt make a hol lot of, but well get there) the opponent has no need to respect your options, and considering his other option B2, has so much start up and its so easy to see coming and such low damage from converting off it, the opponent truly does not have to respect cyber sub in the neutral... So in the instance of 1. this point is, Low tier point

2. Good Zoning: Now one could argue that before the patch he had good zoning. I Stand on the side of things that disagrees with this statement, he had good space control, but never good zoning. Good Zoning requires that your tool does chip damage and/or is able to control and push back the advancing opponent (Kenshi for instance), with that being said CSZ had neither, a good player could inch their way in safely, without taking any damage what so ever and be on CSZ face in no time, so saying he could zone is dodgy at best, he could control the space/speed in which the opponent could get in But not stop him from doing so. So 2. This point is, low tier point

3.Good Overall pressure: This is a simple one, Without a safe Meter special or decent mids/pokes This character is basically a hit and run with little to no options when engaging in a trade of blows, Like @GAV even said, he literally runs away, so while this is a solid strategy, it most be complimented by something, and this something is a solid zoning which he doesnt have... so 3. Also Low tier point

4.Meter Building: The ability to get tons of meter to convert from his meter heavy combos, Well here CSZ is only fair, considering most of his options rely heavily on meter even his mix ups i would put him as only fair at doing so... And ill explain why. Whilst before the patch the fact that his Iceball was so fast added with the fact that he could grenade the hell out of the ground his opponent needed to use in order to get in, net him incredible meter incredibly fast, while this was a bit to much pre patch, thats not the point, cause we are analyzing him as he is now, So in that regard with his newly nerfed fireball, his ability to get meter fast safely atleast, is only fair. So in the case of 4. his probably only mid tier considering Rekka and pressure intensive characters and zoners can probably farm meter much faster than he can.

5. Good Reversals: Now we are entering the field where a lot of argument can be had but ill try to keep this simple, a good reversal in this game can range from, being able to take you of the opponents pressure / being a launcher / having tons of armor / being extremely fast and punishing or the one we are going to talk about here, Offering tons of fast mobility: In this CSZ is quite good, his reversal ( Icy Slide ) offers him a fast punishing move that makes his hurtbox quite low to the ground whilst being extremely fast and moving him across a good part of the screen. Now its not safe, but thats obvious, and the fact that its such a good overall move in so many occasions nets him on 5. a Top tier point

6.Good Poking game: speaking solely on Down pokes and standing pokes his game is probably among the worse in the game, everyone knows this so im not even going into much depth regarding this issue. 6 nets him a low tier point

7.Good Mix ups: Considering that pre patch his HTBs had holes and you could always armor out of them while characters like for instance Johnny Cage can HTB using meter (like us before) but while jailing the opponent and almost making them so hard to block that its almost guaranteed, Our now post patch HTBs are a very reluctant Mid tier... so in 7. i give him a mid tier point.

8.Mobility: In this i think its quite arguable, because his mobility comes at the price of being unsafe at certain instances, but it cannot be denied that his does have very good mobility for all around purposes, so in this instance 8. i give him a top tier point.

9.How Easily can open up his opponents: Now this is different than mixing your opponents up in the sense that, how easily can he punish whifed moves or specials and convert from them... Well not easily anymore in my opinion. Pre patch we had F13 that even tho was a initial high, was fast and efficient at providing CSZ with foward momentum and ability to convert meterless from it for something like 28% to 30%, this was pretty good, not the best in the game good, but quite solid... Unfortunaly this also was taken from us, so now his only reliable whiff punish move comes in the form of 111 or B3, which honestly is not horrible , but its not winning any awards for greatness... so in this regard i give 9. mid tier point

10. Damage Output: extremely mediocre, he would not enter the gates of Valhalla with such mediocre damage, even when you convert using meter and DS his damage output is still quite bad in comparison to the remaining members of the cast. at 10. i give him a Low tier as in CSZ was witnessed and everyone gave him a Mediocre...

So to some it up. in all 10 points i gave him 5 low tier points, 3 mid tier points and 2 top tier points which in my opinion the top tier points do not give him much when compared to the topics in which he is given low scores. So this character is quite Bad, he might and this is a big (if) not be the worse of the crop, but its 1 step away from joining them... and thats my semi in depth evaluation of his abilities at a present date.
 

Zabru

My blade is broken damn right better than yours!
@Tweedy

Jump 1 has shit for hit advantage.
Yes the armor is multi hitting (your point?) it's also -17.
Sending them full screen is hardly and advantage when bf3 is -43 on whiff or as us Kenshi mains like to call it: "death on whiff".
"projectiles' aren't very good when they can be made to whiff simply by running in.
Great damage...?
3 is a pretty good mid yes, B1 is better now but is still risky.
D4 is nice but should be quicker.
He is minus on almost everything including on hit with his db4.
His keep away tools don't keep anyone away with the exception of complete idiots.
Many other character have better "projectiles" than Kenshi.
I would trade a "good" mid for a good OH any day (I thought this was common sense).


You can't just keep downplaying a character because he lacks 50/50s.
Oh, so you think thats why I'm "downplaying"! Cause he lacks 50/50s, I wish that were the case.
Kitana has an amazing keep away game, Kung Lao has insane tools across the board.
Kenshi has no dirt, no amazing option, no feature that makes you go: "and that's why he picked Kenshi".

I'm playing Shaolin Kung Jin and I'm not missing anything besides the blindfold.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
GAV - If I can win with him with zero practice against online players, there is something in what I'm doing that may translate in higher level play.

Kindred - You believe that only through high level play can answers be found for high level play.
Take the example of Jacqui. You could easily go online and pick up a lot of wins with her with no experience. Like... yeah the machine gun is important in high level play, that doesn't mean whatever you're doing that's exposing weak players will translate the same way you're using it.

A lot of these players probably don't know things like 1112 having a gap, what his + strings are, how to punish certain moves, etc
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Take the example of Jacqui. You could easily go online and pick up a lot of wins with her with no experience. Like... yeah the machine gun is important in high level play, that doesn't mean whatever you're doing that's exposing weak players will translate the same way you're using it.

A lot of these players probably don't know things like 1112 having a gap, what his + strings are, how to punish certain moves, etc
Kenshi is much the same, but CSZ isn't built like that. His stuff is situational.

With CSZ - I almost feel like I'm playing post-patch SF4 Seth, but instead of taking more damage - I'm doing less damage.
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I've read everything you said and didn't just glaze over it to get back to my argument, but gave it careful consideration. On most things, we agree.
We both a agree I was being a troll with the memes early on. We just disagree on whether they were funny.
I never said your memes aren't funny GAV lol

Here's what we really disagree upon, so chime in on this...

GAV - If I can win with him with zero practice against online players, there is something in what I'm doing that may translate in higher level play.

Kindred - You believe that only through high level play can answers be found for high level play.
Other than the fact that what I "believe" is shared by every CSZ main here, the point is this: I've done random select against people with good W/L ratios online and still won. This does not mean their character needs to be buffed or the character I used is fine. You winning against randoms is simply due to the fact that you may have a better overall knowledge of fighting game mechanics.

@14K , @I GOT HANDS (Who wrote a fucking perfect analysis above that cannot be more clear and if you still disagree after reading it, then you are naive, arrogant and stubborn), @rev0lver , @Dankster Morgan , @SaltShaker , @MadeOfMetal ....we've all been trying to explain to you why your approach is not a valid one to assess balance....And we all know more about CSZ in our pinky than you do in your entire head, because we main him.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I never said your memes aren't funny GAV lol



Other than the fact that what I "believe" is shared by every CSZ main here, the point is this: I've done random select against people with good W/L ratios online and still won. This does not mean their character needs to be buffed or the character I used is fine. You winning against randoms is simply due to the fact that you may have a better overall knowledge of fighting game mechanics.

@14K , @I GOT HANDS (Who wrote a fucking perfect analysis above that cannot be more clear and if you still disagree after reading it, then you are naive, arrogant and stubborn), @rev0lver , @Dankster Morgan , @SaltShaker , @MadeOfMetal ....we've all been trying to explain to you why your approach is not a valid one to assess balance....And we all know more about CSZ in our pinky than you do in your entire head, because we main him.
I've trained boxing and kung fu for many, many, many years. Its been a big part of my life since I can remember. Still, people who have just started training teach me new things every day. Transcendence only exists theoretically. What transcendence means to us humans is that if you give yourself fully to something, you will be the best at it that you can be. Life lessons are everywhere; not just within our own narrow focus. There are more aspects to the head of a pin than recognitions that any human can hold at once. Knowing that you don't know everything is the only way to achieve human transcendence. Pure transcendence can only be achieved of oneself. To go further, you need others...
 
Turns out last night I reread the fixes on this patch and I noticed they fixed the screen disorientation caused by Kano's roll. So I went online and fought an Ermac with Jacqui. Ermac levitated and I blasted him hit Jacqui's rocket, then the screen once again got disorientated. Try this out for yourself to see if it was only our game this happened to, but if it's stuck like this for us all, maybe there is something that needs to be done about this and possibly fix that horrendous ice ball start up in a possible next patch?
 
Reactions: GAV

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I've trained boxing and kung fu for many, many, many years. Its been a big part of my life since I can remember. Still, people who have just started training teach me new things every day.
Depends on the subject. If you just started playing a character, it's arrogant of you to think you can teach people who main him anything advanced. Maybe you can, but in this present CSZ case, you are completely and utterly wrong and have been explained in detail and in many different way why you are wrong. Yet you keep regurgitating the useless argument that you beat some randoms online.
I've trained in psychology and neuroscience for many, many, many years. And if a first year tried argue with me about an advanced topic in neuroscience in which I am an expert of, while he has never read a study and is going on a hunch, he's not teaching me jack shit. You seem to live in a lala land where every experience you have is valid and that's a bias you see a lot and I've studied this bias a few times during my psychology undergrad.

What transcendence means to us humans is that if you give yourself fully to something, you will be the best at it that you can be. Life lessons are everywhere; not just within our own narrow focus. There are more aspects to the head of a pin than recognitions that any human can hold at once.
You havent given yourself fully to learning CSZ. A lot of us here have. Yet you feel you can argue balance.

Knowing that you don't know everything is the only way to achieve human transcendence.
Where does humility fit in all of this? Where does knowing when you just dont know anything about a character fit in? Because you seem to pretend like you know enough to argue.
 

xInfra Deadx

Gimmick stolen by Jordan Peele
Everyone who has signed this worthless petition are delusional and hopeless. They even managed to do one thing I thought you guys would never do, and that's make Digimon look sane in comparison to his ridiculous petition years back...
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
You havent given yourself fully to learning CSZ. A lot of us here have. Yet you feel you can argue balance.


Where does humility fit in all of this? Where does knowing when you just dont know anything about a character fit in? Because you seem to pretend like you know enough to argue.
The only way to give yourself fully to something is to take input from others - even beginners.
 
Last edited: