General/Other - Cyber Sub-Zero Cyber Sub Zero petition!

[Kindred]

OK, lets say you are 100% right about the character and I am 100% wrong.. I'm not conceding now. This is just to move the conversation forward...

....I just saw this. I'm amazed you can say that dude. You clearly don't know the character in depth and play as a "casual zoner" with some success against players like "Cool_MK17365" and "IbeatYourMom95"
There is no "let's say you're 100% right"...All CSZ main players are telling you you're wrong. If you were a CSZ main that lab him for hours then, we can have a discussion. How arrogant of me would it be to try to lecture Kitana mains about their character if i barely play her?

I'm trying to be civil here but you are literally putting yourself in the category of CSZ mains here (by virtue of arguing) who devoted more time to this character than you ever have and you're trying to lecture them about it. That's another level of arrogance. Every thing I told you and explained about his moves just went in one ear and out the other because you beat some randoms in ranked. That's some S+ tier stubbornness right here.

Sorry i dont mean to be rude but arrogant ppl that know very little about a character yet try to discuss his intricacies is mind blowingly ridiculous.

 

[14K]

I'd like to think so. People have bitched about stuff in the past and characters were nerfed/buffed so although the chances are slim, I still have hope. Especially since all we are asking for is the iceball to be returned to 21 frames and have a longer recovery.

Its still extremely discouraging to know that they do this in the first place... I mean sure its Slim mostly because they want to stop support for this game, its quite visible that they are trying very hard to move on to Injustice 2 if they didnt so already. But if i recall correctly, and Plz anyone feel free to correct me if im wrong on this, but i remember someone Like Ed Boon or Paulo say this was an open system that they could patch/hotfix anything at any time if need be... If something was found that would ruin the games balance/experience they could hotfix it with no problems?!?!

If thats the case, at any point they could release a hotfix for certain characters or even a full new patch...

Considering how lazy this last patch was im highly doubtfull they would do this but hey hope right...

 

[GAV]

....I just saw this. I'm amazed you can say that dude. You clearly don't know the character in depth and play as a "casual zoner" with some success against players like "Cool_MK17365" and "IbeatYourMom95"
There is no "let's say you're 100% right"...All CSZ main players are telling you you're wrong. If you were a CSZ main that lab him for hours then, we can have a discussion. How arrogant of me would it be to try to lecture Kitana mains about their character if i barely play her?

I'm trying to be civil here but you are literally putting yourself in the category of CSZ mains here (by virtue of arguing) who devoted more time to this character than you ever have and you're trying to lecture them about it. That's another level of arrogance. Every thing I told you and explained about his moves just went in one ear and out the other because you beat some randoms in ranked. That's some S+ tier stubbornness right here.

Sorry i dont mean to be rude but arrogant ppl that know very little about a character yet try to discuss his intricacies is mind blowingly ridiculous.

...but CSZ JUST changed. Your knowledge may be working against you.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I lucked into something. There are only two ways to know which...

One, I lab him out - and actually get good. Two, you buy into the way I've said to play him for an hour - and see how well you do.

Seeing as my answer would take hours, and yours would just take an hour - I would rather just have you play it out - and then I'll take whatever you say after that - straight.

My guess is that you would come back with at least some new insight. I may not be right, but I know I'm onto something.

I may not know Triborg as well as you, or even MKX, but my hunches have served many well over the years over many different venues. I don't want to start comparing resumes, but I have special insight when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Plus, it sure beats relying on an unlikely NRS last minute rescue...

 

[Kindred]

...but CSZ JUST changed. Your knowledge may be working against you.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I lucked into something. There are only two ways to know which...

One, I lab him out - and actually get good. Two, you buy into the way I've said to play him for an hour - and see how well you do.

Seeing as my answer would take hours, and yours would just take an hour - I would rather just have you play it out - and then I'll take whatever you say after that - straight.
My guess is that you would come back with at least some new insight. I may not be right, but I know I'm onto something.

Are you serious? Do you actually think that when I saw the patch notes, i didn't bother to lab him and figured what else i can do? All CSZ mains labed him post-patch because we REALLY don't want to let this character go. Of course I labed him, of course I tried a more defensive approach and yes i found some stuff but he is more frustrating than anything to play. I played against randoms (and won because the majority suck) and when I played against friends of mine that are tourney caliber, i got blown up, regardless of my strategy, when I used to win against them more often than not pre-patch. Why? Because CSZ's game is good against ppl who arent familiar with the match up but anybody that is or that can adapt, sees the glaring holes immediately.

I don't understand where this glorified view of your "hunches" come from but just because you get hunches correct in one area of your life, doesn't mean you'll get them in others. If you don't know a character, a "hunch" means nothing. It's like a kid who just learned multiplication and gets a hunch about derivatives.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I lucked into something. There are only two ways to know which...

or maybe you fabricated the entire thing of you even playing the character, thus using completely anecdotal evidence to support your statements? If you do so well with him online, why won't you post a single one of those matches?

 

[KombatJames]

All I've been hearing is "Lab him out"... You can't Lab a dead character. Every combo he has requires 1 bar because his ice ball is too slow.

 

[Kindred]

or maybe you fabricated the entire thing of you even playing the character, thus using completely anecdotal evidence to support your statements? If you do so well with him online, why won't you post a single one of those matches?

I don't think he's lying about his wins online because it's not hard to win online since so many players just suck.
I agree he should post but even if he does, we know he's not very good with CSZ and we know he is probably playing against bad kids so all it will serve, if he posts a video, is for us to pinpoint every problem with his style and how shit the opponents are for not taking advantage of CSZ's holes

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I don't think he's lying about his wins online because it's not hard to win online since so many players just suck.
I agree he should post but even if he does, we know he's not very good with CSZ and we know he is probably playing against bad kids so all it will serve, if he posts a video, is for us to pinpoint every problem with his style and how shit the opponents are for not taking advantage of CSZ's holes

doesnt matter if hes lying or not, if he doesn't post a video his recounts are completely anecdotal and hold no weight what so ever... because as you said, the peoples hes playing against are highly unlikely a measure of high level play

 

[GAV]

Are you serious? Do you actually think that when I saw the patch notes, i didn't bother to lab him and figured what else i can do? All CSZ mains labed him post-patch because we REALLY don't want to let this character go. Of course I labed him, of course I tried a more defensive approach and yes i found some stuff but he is more frustrating than anything to play. I played against randoms (and won because the majority suck) and when I played against friends of mine that are tourney caliber, i got blown up, regardless of my strategy, when I used to win against them more often than not pre-patch. Why? Because CSZ's game is good against ppl who arent familiar with the match up but anybody that is or that can adapt, sees the glaring holes immediately.

I don't understand where this glorified view of your "hunches" come from but just because you get hunches correct in one area of your life, doesn't mean you'll get them in others. If you don't know a character, a "hunch" means nothing. It's like a kid who just learned multiplication and gets a hunch about derivatives.

I've boxed or done kung fu almost all the years I've been alive. I was a four year starter in football that figured many things out and always played with 100% of my head and heart and my insight on winning exchanges in football rivals that of any professional. I've helped developers improve their games. (Many features in Madden were from me.) I've helped many good Madden players become great and was runner-up at the 2011 Philly Madden Challenge. I've helped train and cornered professional boxers and mixed martial artists. I've also been addicted to fighting games ever since they became a thing - back when Yie Ar Kung Fu and Karate Champ first landed in arcades.

I'm not more defensive with CSZ. I actually run away. I don't attack with anything unsafe unless its to anti-air. I revolve everything around the EX Ice Bomb and I try to always bring up drones at any break. The Dive Kick serves well as anti-air from 3/4 screen. After every knockdown, I create more space - then bomb - but I save the EX bombs for when my opponent is up. If I can keep them from working up close, I can armor through an attack here and there to swing the momentum back. Yes, its a tepid game - and you must play it that way. I'm downright nervous playing CSZ because one touch can take everything back, but he is good at winning exchanges - and if you can win them 2 to 1 - you're probably going to win.

If you're going to iceball - use the short ex bomb - and try to frustrate them first - so you know they're gonna press you - because you really don't want to waste meter. I also nj1 or nj divekick with the further bombs or I'll go into that wonky combo if they run up - then NJ1.

If NRS does rescue CSZ, I'll be happy. I'll be very surprised, but happy too. I think he's still viable though. His frames may be bad, but his arsenal is still there.

 

[Chongo]

@I GOT HANDS @Kindred I blocked GAV months ago, I highly recommend you do the same. It makes TYM just a little bit more bearable.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

@I GOT HANDS @Kindred I blocked GAV months ago, I highly recommend you do the same. It makes TYM just a little bit more bearable.

GAV's a good guy, I'm not going to block him. That doesn't mean I won't say it to him straight when he's being a numpty

 

[GAV]

or maybe you fabricated the entire thing of you even playing the character, thus using completely anecdotal evidence to support your statements? If you do so well with him online, why won't you post a single one of those matches?

I haven't recorded any matches that I've played. Posting matches isn't difficult. Posting casual play I always thought was a bit presumptuous though, but in this case - at least there's a reason. It will probably get hate, but at least you can see what I'm doing. I think if someone good adopted the approach, it could become something.

 

[Kindred]

I've boxed or done kung fu almost all the years I've been alive. I was a four year starter in football that figured many things out and always played with 100% of my head and heart and my insight on winning exchanges in football rivals that of any professional. I've helped developers improve their games. (Many features in Madden were from me.) I've helped many good Madden players become great and was runner-up at the 2011 Philly Madden Challenge. I've helped train and cornered professional boxers and mixed martial artists. I've also been addicted to fighting games ever since they became a thing - back when Yie Ar Kung Fu and Karate Champ first landed in arcades.

Love the story but this is MKXL...so this has no bearing on your abilities with CSZ, a character you barely play.

I'm not more defensive with CSZ. I actually run away. I don't attack with anything unsafe unless its to anti-air. I revolve everything around the EX Ice Bomb and I try to always bring up drones at any break. The Dive Kick serves well as anti-air from 3/4 screen. After every knockdown, I create more space - then bomb - but I save the EX bombs for when my opponent is up. If I can keep them from working up close, I can armor through an attack here and there to swing the momentum back. Yes, its a tepid game - and you must play it that way. I'm downright nervous playing CSZ because one touch can take everything back, but he is good at winning exchanges - and if you can win them 2 to 1 - you're probably going to win.
If you're going to iceball - use the short ex bomb - and try to frustrate them first - so you know they're gonna press you - because you really don't want to waste meter. I also nj1 or nj divekick with the further bombs or I'll go into that wonky combo if they run up - then NJ1.

If you run away, you are turtling, which is a defensive strategy. Man this is basic now.
A good player will touch you a lot trust me. Ermac for example can teleport and exchanging with his soulball is a bad idea since you get damaged and he doesnt. I can also hover to avoid your far bombs and force you to jump if I use the ground slam. Up close, ermac's pokes blow CSZ's up and crucially, I have an overhead and low combos that lead to 40% meterless and a meterless vortex.

And again, you are using these strats against randoms online. If they work, it means nothing and if they don't work, it means nothing.
Post a video.

If NRS does rescue CSZ, I'll be happy. I'll be very surprised, but happy too. I think he's still viable though. His frames may be bad, but his arsenal is still there.

It's actually as though I've been talking to your nose and not your ears because you seem to just ignore or dismiss or forget anything i write.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I haven't recorded any matches that I've played. Posting matches isn't difficult. Posting casual play I always thought was a bit presumptuous though, but in this case - at least there's a reason. It will probably get hate, but at least you can see what I'm doing. I think if someone good adopted the approach, it could become something.

nobody is going to hate on you for not playing well we dont care, but if you didn't play well and you still won, you must be capable of admitting that means its pretty low level gameplay and completely non representative of anything balance wise

 

[Kindred]

I haven't recorded any matches that I've played. Posting matches isn't difficult. Posting casual play I always thought was a bit presumptuous though, but in this case - at least there's a reason. It will probably get hate, but at least you can see what I'm doing. I think if someone good adopted the approach, it could become something.

OR OR OR.... MAYBE CSZ mains here can see your approach and tell you what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right and what you are getting away with due to the opponent's lack of knowledge of the match up. You know, because we actually play the character and labed him a lot.

Assuming WE will take YOUR approach just cuz you beat some online kids is very very arrogant (even though you don't mean it that way)

 

[GAV]

Love the story but this is MKXL...so this has no bearing on your abilities with CSZ, a character you barely play.



If you run away, you are turtling, which is a defensive strategy. Man this is basic now.
A good player will touch you a lot trust me. Ermac for example can teleport and exchanging with his soulball is a bad idea since you get damaged and he doesnt. I can also hover to avoid your far bombs and force you to jump if I use the ground slam. Up close, ermac's pokes blow CSZ's up and crucially, I have an overhead and low combos that lead to 40% meterless and a meterless vortex.

And again, you are using these strats against randoms online. If they work, it means nothing and if they don't work, it means nothing.
Post a video.


It's actually as though I've been talking to your nose and not your ears because you seem to just ignore or dismiss or forget anything i write.

I can barely hold my own against Forever El1te, Big J Gleez, Jagged, or I am the LK with my main, Sun God. So, using CSZ against these guys would be wasting their time. I understand where I am as a CSZ player, but successes against randoms with strong winning percentages online isn't completely worthless when you have barely played with the character at all. At the very least, it shows that you are onto something.

When I play with characters other than SG, my percentages go down. When I've played nothing but SG for a few day, it generally reads 100% win chance against everybody - except for the guys I know from Twitch or here. When I play other characters for a while, it sometimes gives me a zero percent chance in matches - but if I'm SG - oftentimes its my opponent who has no chance. I play a decent Predator - and I learned him trying to show that he's OP. I think I did it because I was beating guys I couldn't beat with SG before he was nerfed. Now, I'm OK with him - but not as good as SG. I've labbed Kotal's other variations as well, but I haven't branched out much beyond that. I play a decent Jax, Jason, CSZ, Smoke, Cyrax, Sektor, Raiden, Scorpion, SZ, Ermac, and Kano though. I've never practiced them, but I have a plan with them - and a few combos. I know the frame data of everyone. MKX doesn't come easy to me, but I have definitely put in work - and I'm proud of my improvement. Out of all the characters I haven't labbed, I feel most comfortable with Cyber Sub. I get if I get blocked, I'm going for a ride. I still feel OK going into matches with him, as long as I'm not playing someone from here - but I have KK for that.

 

[GAV]

OR OR OR.... MAYBE CSZ mains here can see your approach and tell you what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right and what you are getting away with due to the opponent's lack of knowledge of the match up. You know, because we actually play the character and labed him a lot.

Assuming WE will take YOUR approach just cuz you beat some online kids is very very arrogant (even though you don't mean it that way)

Beyond the initial trolling, which was a little over-the-top, but I'll do that for laughs sometimes - I really am trying to help.

I want to see Triborg in tournaments. I love watching high level play with all characters, but especially with Triborg. To me, its pure hype.

 

[GAV]

nobody is going to hate on you for not playing well we dont care, but if you didn't play well and you still won, you must be capable of admitting that means its pretty low level gameplay and completely non representative of anything balance wise

...but if I haven't practiced at all - meaning haven't spent more than 60 seconds with him in practice mode - and I'm winning with him, does that really tell you nothing?

If its just going through the motions and it tells you nothing and does nothing to move the conversation forward, then what is the point?

Its not like he has a lot of dirt. I'm not winning dirty with him. It comes down to baiting and taking advantage.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

...but if I haven't practiced at all - meaning haven't spent more than 60 seconds with him in practice mode - and I'm winning with him, does that really tell you nothing?

If its just going through the motions and it tells you nothing and does nothing to move the conversation forward, then what is the point?

Its not like he has a lot of dirt. I'm not winning dirty with him. It comes down to baiting and taking advantage.

I know what you mean but more likely than not, you're just much much better then the average ranked player. Like I could beat XxmLg420BLAZEitxX with balanced Kenshi, but that doesn't really mean a lot.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I can barely hold my own against Forever El1te, Big J Gleez, Jagged, or I am the LK with my main, Sun God. So, using CSZ against these guys would be wasting their time. I understand where I am as a CSZ player, but successes against randoms with strong winning percentages online isn't completely worthless when you have barely played with the character at all.

thats such bad logic i dont even know where to begin




if you aren't playing at a high level, your matches have absolute ZERO bearing on balance

if your online opponents are losing to your fresh unlabbed character no matter who it is, then that has absolutely no bearing on balance, it means they are worse than you or they haven't labbed the match up

...but if I haven't practiced at all - meaning haven't spent more than 60 seconds with him in practice mode - and I'm winning with him, does that really tell you nothing?

seriously. it tells you NOTHING in regards to balance. in fact if it is indicative of anything its much more likely something else like a) the character is easy to pick up b) your opponents are potatoes c) you are using something hard to counter if your opponent hasnt labbed it, anything, because if you haven't labbed him you obviously aren't using anything thats so "broken" about him that got him nerfed, and you also aren't being held back by his low damage or any of the other things that make him trash. What you described is literally the LOWEST possible level of play, a level of play where your opponents say Scorpions Teleport breaks the game, etc

seriously GAV.

YOUR ONLINE MATCHES MEAN FUCK ALL IN A BALANCE DISCUSSION

Even less so when you refuse to even post the footage.

 

[rev0lver]

...but if I haven't practiced at all - meaning haven't spent more than 60 seconds with him in practice mode - and I'm winning with him, does that really tell you nothing?

Lol man you can't keep using this argument. I could probably take any 5-minute bottom tier into ranked matches and get a positive record. Unless you're beating top players with a character, it doesn't mean anything about how good the character is. And even at the high levels it's not necessarily indicative of how good a character is. But you can't just be playing randoms and say a character's fine because you're winning

 

[Zabru]

@GAV I'm not so sure on some of the stuff you are saying, but props for keeping up an intelligent and peaceful approach. I would have resorted to swearing and screaming with the way ppl are calling you out in this thread. I'm gonna rethink the manner I deal with aggressive people now because of you.

 

[Kindred]

@Gengar @14K lol that shit is hilarious! You guys are so hostile I lost my shit hahah!

Try having a convo with someone who knows very little about a character and insists that beating random people online is a valid way to assess balance...I can understand why they became a bit aggressive. I've been repeating myself like 5 times and it's as if GAV is ignoring my posts. Still I'm trying to be civil because i dont think he's doing it to be an ass or anything.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

GAV is being pretty abysmal in here lets be honest

Hasn't even labbed the character and decided to not only tell people how fine he is, literally off a hunch, but make memes calling everyone who feels otherwise tier whores and babies whining to NRS

 

[Tweedy]

The Kenshi community is like the Mileena community before she was buffed to potentially #1.

Kenshi is not bad. He's good, just good. Do not buff this character like he's bad. Same with the borg boys.

None of these characters are super C tier unviable bums. They're just not as good as the rest of the cast.