Cassie Cage General Discussion Thread

[Vslayer]

Exactly.

I'd say about -4 or -5 is about the time where it's a bad idea for you to walk backwards because D1s will tag you no matter what. But 0, -1, and -2 might as well be positive on block as far as the options you still have.

I came to this discovery last night while I was wondering why the hell all of Kano's moves are so negative.

Offense in this game is so clever. It works almost like a 3D fighter, which I'm accustomed to.

In Tekken, if you are -1 or -2, you could still side step afterwards and continue pressure. The side step will dodge all the opponent's fastest attacks BUT they could still go for something slower that'll catch sidestep if they predict you'll press on. The thing is though, if you get them scared enough not to use their fastest moves, you could use your own fastest moves to continue pressure.

NRS has really outdone themselves imo.

Looking back at other people's frame data suddenly everything makes sense.
Who needs a 50/50 or strong zoning when you have such powerful neutral tools like this?

Subzero has this same little game from his super safe B2 mid. So at first people thought he'd just be forced to do unsafe 50/50s all day, but with this offensive plan, he could be safe as fuck and just pressure you all day.

The characters that could do this plan effectively in a scary way so far that I have found are:

Johnny with his F344
(14 frame high starter, forward advancing, -2 on block)

Kano with F12
(13 frame high starter, forward advancing, 0 on block)

Cassie with F4
(9 frame MID starter, decent range, 0 on block)

Subzero with B2
(14 frame mid starter, forward advancing, -2 on block)

Baraka with F4
(12 frame mid starter, forward advancing, -2 on block)

Skarlet with F43 kicks
(13 frame mid starter, forward advancing, -1)

These will end up being these character's best moves in footsies and quiet possibly their strongest tools, period.

Even after you block these moves you are in the offender's guessing game.
It's fascinating af....

I also see why Baraka's variation move where he adds an extension to his D1 is going to be SO fucking good at countering some of this.

Shoutouts @16 Bit and @Dizzy 's Johnny vs Skarlet Washed Up Warrior's match that made me discover this.

Agreed, this is really a step forward for NRS gameplay wise. It's shaping up to be a very impressive game and not just graphically speaking.

 

[Circus]

Just realized I linked the wrong video before...

This is the video where the forced whiffs on the D1s happens:

@5:30 Johnny does it when he is -2 from F344
@3:43 Skarlet does it when her D1 is blocked and she walks back and has Johnny miss his D1.

Edit:

Had the right one nvm -_-

 

[Vslayer]

Just realized I linked the wrong video before...

This is the video where the forced whiffs on the D1s happens:

@5:30 Johnny does it when he is -2 from F344
@3:43 Skarlet does it when her D1 is blocked and she walks back and has Johnny miss his D1.

You had linked the right one

 

[Goatlegs]

In case some of you Cassie fans aren't understand how ridiculously good this is...

.. here's a visual example of how you could have your opponent whiff their fast poke by walking backwards when you are 0 or barely negative:

@5:30 Johnny does it when he is -2 from F344
@3:43 Skarlet does it when her D1 is blocked and she walks back and has Johnny miss his D1.

And because F4 is ranged further than all D1s and jabs... she could punish the fuck out of people with no problem at all. She's going to have you terrified to press buttons even when she's negative because of the fear of the walk back.

You can't hope to randomly D1 or D2 out of her gameplan doing this either because it's a NINE FRAME MID. Going for a poke would have you get kick straight in the mouth.

That's assuming they D1 after every blocked attack. They will eventually catch on and just attack with some kind of quick advancing move. And since this is block button game and not back to block, there's no way you're reacting fast enough to push block if you do decide to walk back and they check you with a quick advancing attack. Of course you can always armor or D1 yourself, but that's the game of counter poking/footsies. Not saying you're wrong, but it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. But I do agree, a 9 frame mid will be very powerful in the counter poking game.

 

[Circus]

That's assuming they D1 after every blocked attack. They will eventually catch on and just attack with some kind of quick advancing move. And since this is block button game and not back to block, there's no way you're reacting fast enough to push block if you do decide to walk back and they check you with a quick advancing attack. Of course you can always armor or D1 yourself, but that's the game of counter poking/footsies. Not saying you're wrong, but it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. But I do agree, a 9 frame mid will be very powerful in the counter poking game.

You're absolutely right.

Lets break down what you said now.

Because they are afraid of D1'ing (average 6-8frames), they go for a further reaching move instead (average 11-15 frames).

Now... if you are only at -1, and you KNOW they will be forced to go for a further reaching move than just a standing 1 or D1, doesn't that mean you could just go for your own standing 1(or2) and hit them with a hit confirm?

1.You'd be at -1.
2. They predict you'll walk backwards to bait a poke so they go for an 12frame move with range.
3. Your standing1 or standing2 is 8-9 frames... (everyone's grab is 10 frames)

That means you'd slap them out of their slower option on a read if you think they'd go for their slower advancing move.

It is a read of course, but it's a deep strategy. It's not a free pressure tool, but more so a game you'll play with their head.

You're essentially stealing a turn everytime you successfully play this little 0, -1, -2 on block game, just like Tekken.

Understand?

ps:
They can't just armor, because armor isn't a thing anymore unless it's a very very character specific thing like Kano's VegeMighty buff to Black Dragon Ball.

 

[BecomingDeath13]

For those of you that get into the stress test. If Cassie is in. Share all that shit. I'm still waiting for my Injustice 2 beta code so I'm not holding out hope on getting in before the actual beta.


Edit: Also sorry for all the people outside US that don't even get the opportunity.

 

[StormGoddess]

seems some Millena fan isnt happy with ya'll girl...

LOL!!!!

 

[M.D.]

You all making a huge deal out of this and even if it's about all characters, using the cage video as refference, means you will get cage nerfed pre-launch and the others will remain exactly the same, just as a-list went down into the gutter and flame fist dvorah hellfire remained exactly the same.

And then none shall know the extent of what mindless gorilla of rage I will turn into.

 

[Vslayer]

seems some Millena fan isnt happy with ya'll girl...

LOL!!!!

Well if Cassie is a guest character in Dora the Explorer, I’d play it.

 

[Circus]

You all making a huge deal out of this and even if it's about all characters, using the cage video as refference, means you will get cage nerfed pre-launch and the others will remain exactly the same, just as a-list went down into the gutter and flame fist dvorah hellfire remained exactly the same.

And then none shall know the extent of what mindless gorilla of rage I will turn into.

Skarlet does the same thing in the video, it's not just Johnny man lol.

@3:43

The developers know it exists already, it's why they are doing it against each other so constantly.

I wish I could explain better how this is literally the basis of MK11; the thing I explained about the 0, -1, -2 on block game.

When you condition your opponent to do a slower option you could use your own standing1 or standing2 as any character to stuff them out. What is great though is that almost all the characters so far have either standing1s or standing2s that are 0 or -1 on block too! So the 0, -1, -2 game continues!!

This means that there might be a situation where you are fighting someone and they are afraid of going for their fast option because they fear the walk-back AND they are afraid of the jabs so they don't go for the slow option SO THEN they just block and you could end up repeating your jab string over and over and over again to fuck with their head and open them up until they:

1. Decide to walk back themselves (or sidestep if this was Tekken)

2. Commit to a fast option (and risk the walk-back whiff punish)

3. Commit to the advancing attack option.(or commit to a move that would catch sidestep if this were Tekken)


@Goatlegs @Vslayer @M.D. @BecomingDeath13

I want everyone who cares to learn to watch this video:

@4:39 to @6:08

Do an option that forces your opponent to want to go for their fastest pokes... but you WANT them to do their fastest poke because if you walk back at the right time it whiffs and you go for a punish!

This isn't some new concept to fighting games. It's been what Tekken has done for years.

BUT

This IS the first time this kind of game has been played in a 2D field. Mortal Kombat is basically 2D Tekken now. I don't know how else to explain it! That sounds hype as fuck!

 

[Circus]

BTW, in that video of Tekken I linked they are using a mid that is -1 on block to force a reaction out of their opponent.

While most characters in MK11 will play this game with their high jabs (or a select few advancing moves with some characters), Cassie mother fucking Cage could literally do the EXACT same thing they are doing in that video @4:39 with her mid F4 lol.

F4 is 9 frame mid and is 0 on block. If she does it and then does it again right afterward it would stuff EVERYTHING besides the opponent's fastest moves. She could literally just do it over and over AND they can't even walk backwards until pushed back far enough because it has some range to it unlike jabs. The opponent will literally have to do their fastest option to escape the pressure... but if Cassie decides to walk back at the right time.... boom, their fucked.

No wonder her D1 is 8 frames. She doesn't need a fast poke with that crazy ass F4.

Cassie is going to be an offensive beast lol.

EDIT:
Of course there is going to be some pushback to it though. I doubt she'll be able to do it infinitely lol.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I'm not gonna get too hyped up as frame data is subject to change before release, but her best tool is looking like F4 for sure.

9 frame, 0 on block mid is a bit insane. That's basically her poke, her pressure tool, her whiff punisher... everything. lol

Very much reminds me of Sub Zero's D4 from MK9 (and why I loved him so much in that game). It was 8 frames and 0 on block I believe.

seems some Millena fan isnt happy with ya'll girl...

LOL!!!!

my god, lmfaooooo XD

 

[Vslayer]

Skarlet does the same thing in the video, it's not just Johnny man lol.

@3:43

The developers know it exists already, it's why they are doing it against each other so constantly.

I wish I could explain better how this is literally the basis of MK11; the thing I explained about the 0, -1, -2 on block game.

When you condition your opponent to do a slower option you could use your own standing-1 or standing-2 as any character to stuff them out. What is great though is that almost all the characters so far have either standing-1s or standing-2s that are 0 or -1 on block too! So the 0, -1, -2 game continues!!

This means that there might be a situation where you are fighting someone and they are afraid of going for their fast option because they fear the walk-back AND they are afraid of the jabs so they don't go for the slow option SO they just block and you could end up repeating your jab string over and over and over again to fuck with their head and open them up until they:

1. Decide to walk back themselves (or sidestep if this was Tekken)

2. Commit to a fast option (and risk the walk-back whiff punish)

3. Commit to the advancing attack option.(or commit to a move that would catch sidestep if this were Tekken)


@Goatlegs @Vslayer @M.D. @BecomingDeath13

I want everyone who cares to learn to watch this video:

@4:39 to @6:08

Do an option that forces your opponent to want to go for their fastest pokes... but you WANT them to do their fastest poke because if you walk back at the right time it whiffs and you go for a punish!

This isn't some new concept to fighting games. It's been what Tekken has done for years.

BUT

This IS the first time this kind of game has been played in a 2D field. Mortal Kombat is basically 2D Tekken now. I don't know how else to explain it! That sounds hype as fuck!

I watched the whole video. Fighting games can look simple on the outside: hit buttons, delete your opponents health bar first and win. But the mechanics and the strategies behind them is what I think a lot of us really love about the genre. It’s impossible in a 1v1 situation to recreate this in any other type of game.

 

[Circus]

I'm not gonna get too hyped up as frame data is subject to change before release, but her best tool is looking like F4 for sure.

9 frame, 0 on block mid is a bit insane. That's basically her poke, her pressure tool, her whiff punisher... everything. lol

Very much reminds me of Sub Zero's D4 from MK9 (and why I loved him so much in that game). It was 8 frames and 0 on block I believe.



my god, lmfaooooo XD

Yea, 9frame mid and 0 on block is fucking awesome lol.

I could kind of see it staying this way or at least -1 on block though.
She'd still be able to play the same game with her F2 high (0 on block), but idk how that move looks like.

With her D1 at 8frames and her other strings just generally being okay on block, I wouldn't be surprised if F4 stayed this insane. If it's even close to how it is now, Cassie Cage will continue being the queen of the up-close game, that's for sure.

For reference, this is how huge F4 is lol:
(and the second hit of the F4 string is an overhead btw)

I watched the whole video. Fighting games can look simple on the outside: hit buttons, delete your opponents health bar first and win. But the mechanics and the strategies behind them is what I think a lot of us really love about the genre. It’s impossible in a 1v1 situation to recreate this in any other type of game.

So true.

I love getting excited about this kind of shit.
It's seemingly unimportant for people who just want to pick up the game and have a good time, but when games have this kind of depth and you actually invest time to get better, it literally can't be reproduced by any other kind of genre. It honestly becomes something beautiful.

Sometimes I wish things were a bit easier for casuals to understand how impressive some things are though. When people call fighting games "button mashers" I cringe so hard.

Hopefully the fighting at a high level in MK11 will look so cool that the casuals will be fascinated with it even if they don't know what's going on(like Tekken7 and unlike Injustice2 lol).

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Does anyone have Cassie's Duel Wield Cancels and Drone Shot Stagger in Gif or a short clip on hand?
I don't have much free time and would appreciate it...

 

[Circus]

Does anyone have Cassie's Duel Wield Cancels and Drone Shot Stagger in Gif or a short clip on hand?
I don't have much free time and would appreciate it...

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

How plus do you think it is?

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

I never fuck with cancels, I'm too old to have the dexterity necessary haha

They look kinda slow tho, compared to like liu kang or JC mkx cancels

 

[Circus]

How plus do you think it is?

That's a deep question man.

Sure though, let me put my game developer thinking cap on.

If it were anywhere close to + on block or even -1 it would be pretty ridiculous in a game like this because all the things I've explained in this thread, so I honestly don't think it will be that safe.

My guess would be -3 on block? MAYBE -2 on block?

It sucks because we really won't know until release date and it seems like a big component of her gameplay at a higher level, especially if even 16Bit brought it up.

idk man that's a tough question.

 

[gitblame]

Let's not sweat about frame data yet. If they still messing out with things like height of attacks (Baraka's projectile) I bet my ass that frame data we saw on this videos will change a lot.

Cancels won't be plus, I think. You can see it by how long animations go. Also you can cancel it into dash and I don't think you can press buttons immidately after dash. Cancels will be more like conditioning tools. Maybe you will be able to cancel unsafe string or button into dual weilding then cancel it into backdash to create some whiff scenarios?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

That's a deep question man.

Sure though, let me put my game developer thinking cap on.

If it were anywhere close to + on block or even -1 it would be pretty ridiculous in a game like this because all the things I've explained in this thread, so I honestly don't think it will be that safe.

My guess would be -3 on block? MAYBE -2 on block?

It sucks because we really won't know until release date and it seems like a big component of her gameplay at a higher level, especially if even 16Bit brought it up.

idk man that's a tough question.

I was thinking around -3 tah +2 on the Gun Cancels? But if I thought anything was strong out of her kit it would have to be the 9f Mid that's 0 on block.
Sure beats her 11f B1 from MKX. And I see she has long range mids that seem to advance fast and many counter zoning tools/zoning tools available which I'm in love with. Color me impressed.

On that second gif you posted, was that the drone shot? I didn't see the bullet ricochet off the drone but I seen the Stagger.

Obviously tools like constant cancel pressure shouldn't exsist like Johnny/Dvorah/Raiden MKX prepatch but:
I was moreso thinking in terms of a slightly plus with her DWG-RC(Duel Wield Gunshot RunCancel) on block not +20. If it's plus like +5-+10 which is insane I'd want it to have a cost. For example:
So a cancel that only allows one cancel after a string so. Tap,tap,tap DWRC Tap Tap Tap (End of Pressure). And to facilitate this it could cost bar like Kabals NDC's cost 2 bars to cancel only allowing 2 strings in conjunction.

Yeah I get ya that we won't know until 22nd maybe beta but I can see potential and I was thinking that someone savy could take the video of the gun cancel and slow it down frame by frame and calculate it's frame data and also see if 16bit is canceling late which I kinda suspect he is.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Let's not sweat about frame data yet. If they still messing out with things like height of attacks (Baraka's projectile) I bet my ass that frame data we saw on this videos will change a lot.

Cancels won't be plus, I think. You can see it by how long animations go. Also you can cancel it into dash and I don't think you can press buttons immidately after dash. Cancels will be more like conditioning tools. Maybe you will be able to cancel unsafe string or button into dual weilding then cancel it into backdash to create some whiff scenarios?

Maybe a cancel into dash cancel could offer benifets. Maybe her DW DC is 0on block or could be and that would be extremely strong to make unsafe strings secure while not allowing cancel pressure. I do like the setup and bait theme of this game.
Baits are the new cancels.

 

[BecomingDeath13]

On that second gif you posted, was that the drone shot? I didn't see the bullet ricochet off the drone but I seen the Stagger.

The 2nd gif is her drone stance cancel. She takes out her cell to control the drone and then puts it away. That's not the ricochet shot

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

The 2nd gif is her drone stance cancel. She takes out her cell to control the drone and then puts it away. That's not the ricochet shot

Ok cool, thanks. I don't know why I thought it was the Droneshot that staggered opponent. Hmm is the drone shot ricochet a special move or a normal combo string?

I am loving Cassie and can't wait to see more. I'm almost positive she will be on the Beta to test. If others don't get it I'm recording her frame data first thing and her moves and then showing a proper combo vid. I'm hoping others lab some Tek.

 

[BecomingDeath13]

cool, thanks. I don't know why I thought it was the Droneshot that staggered opponent. Hmm is the drone shot ricochet a special move or a normal combo string?

I believe it's a special move.