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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
While I agree that IGAU's demise has nothing to do with Batgirl....Can we please sop the "only one player" nonsense?

In MK9 people say Cyrax was broken.. Why is that when "Only one person ever won a major with him"? Look at just how flawed that logic is. Before DJT used him as a main there was basically just Maxter who consistently had him in the top. After Maxter stopped playing we didn't see Cyrax in the top anymore until DJT used him to place top and then go onto win EVO. To this day, DJT's win at EVO is the only time Cyrax has ever won a major.

How about Kenshi? People to this day joke about how broken he is. Why is that when "Only one person was winning with him"? During the prime of the game, NO ONE besides Pig was terrorizing people with him. In fact Pig was also the only person who was consistently winning Kenshi's 7-3 adv match ups like Kitana at the highest level. That's right... Players were trying to use this broken character but not only could they not place, they couldn't even win some of his 7-3s!!!!!! Yet we call him broken because only one person who showed us all why.



Now..to end this "what killed Injustice" thing...

1. The safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, etc... - Many players here say things like "this character only has a 50/50" but do not realize just how powerful a SAFE 50/50 is when BOTH options lead to a full combo. A safe 50/50 with both options giving a combo is one of the most powerful tools that a character can have in a fighting game, especially in a game where not all characters have this. A safe 50/50 that goes to combo is like playing poker with your own money vs someone else playing for free. Every hand they look at you, smile and say "WOOOOOO HOOOO!! THIS HAND IS GREAT!! I'M ALL IN!!!!" and they can do this because they have ZERO consequence when they are wrong. It would become almost impossible to read when they are bluffing or actually have something because there is 0.0% risk for them. You however are sweating bullets because losing for you means you go home broke. The other player has a GREAT read on you because they know that you literally cannot afford to be wrong.

People got tired of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50's so they began to quit one by one until there just weren't many players left travel for tournaments. Batgirl didn't kill IGAU, people were getting tired of this before her.

2. We turned our community into an a place that felt uninviting - Many of us, including myself are guilty of this. Constant bickering, name calling, sitting online for 3 hours waiting for someone on your friends list to sign on so you can finally get in a quality set, saying things like "Why is this guy allowed to talk about the game" which makes players feel like they are not allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, etc.. all became huge turn offs. One of my biggest regrets is my inability to let go of my own childish ego for the better of the community. MANY of us let our ego's and petty differences rip things apart. Not only did players already here get turned off by this, but anyone looking to get into the game but unsure also became turned off.

Whats done is done and we need to move on and know that this cannot carry over into MKX. Let it die right here, right now with IGAU.
I wish I could applaud with the claps of ten thousand hands. Couldn't have said it all better myself.

This is why you're my hero, Tom.
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
Premium Supporter
While I agree that IGAU's demise has nothing to do with Batgirl....Can we please sop the "only one player" nonsense?

In MK9 people say Cyrax was broken.. Why is that when "Only one person ever won a major with him"? Look at just how flawed that logic is. Before DJT used him as a main there was basically just Maxter who consistently had him in the top. After Maxter stopped playing we didn't see Cyrax in the top anymore until DJT used him to place top and then go onto win EVO. To this day, DJT's win at EVO is the only time Cyrax has ever won a major.

How about Kenshi? People to this day joke about how broken he is. Why is that when "Only one person was winning with him"? During the prime of the game, NO ONE besides Pig was terrorizing people with him. In fact Pig was also the only person who was consistently winning Kenshi's 7-3 adv match ups like Kitana at the highest level. That's right... Players were trying to use this broken character but not only could they not place, they couldn't even win some of his 7-3s!!!!!! Yet we call him broken because only one person who showed us all why.



Now..to end this "what killed Injustice" thing...

1. The safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, etc... - Many players here say things like "this character only has a 50/50" but do not realize just how powerful a SAFE 50/50 is when BOTH options lead to a full combo. A safe 50/50 with both options giving a combo is one of the most powerful tools that a character can have in a fighting game, especially in a game where not all characters have this. A safe 50/50 that goes to combo is like playing poker with your own money vs someone else playing for free. Every hand they look at you, smile and say "WOOOOOO HOOOO!! THIS HAND IS GREAT!! I'M ALL IN!!!!" and they can do this because they have ZERO consequence when they are wrong. It would become almost impossible to read when they are bluffing or actually have something because there is 0.0% risk for them. You however are sweating bullets because losing for you means you go home broke. The other player has a GREAT read on you because they know that you literally cannot afford to be wrong.

People got tired of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50's so they began to quit one by one until there just weren't many players left travel for tournaments. Batgirl didn't kill IGAU, people were getting tired of this before her.

2. We turned our community into an a place that felt uninviting - Many of us, including myself are guilty of this. Constant bickering, name calling, sitting online for 3 hours waiting for someone on your friends list to sign on so you can finally get in a quality set, saying things like "Why is this guy allowed to talk about the game" which makes players feel like they are not allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, etc.. all became huge turn offs. One of my biggest regrets is my inability to let go of my own childish ego for the better of the community. MANY of us let our ego's and petty differences rip things apart. Not only did players already here get turned off by this, but anyone looking to get into the game but unsure also became turned off.

Whats done is done and we need to move on and know that this cannot carry over into MKX. Let it die right here, right now with IGAU.
Oh. I'm not claiming whatsoever that batgirl isn't one of the best characters in the game. I just don't think there's enough evidence to point to batgirl as being the character that "broke the game" or "killed injustice." I think most characters have something similar. Otherwise, I totally agree with you.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
People got tired of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50's so they began to quit one by one until there just weren't many players left travel for tournaments. Batgirl didn't kill IGAU, people were getting tired of this before her.
Like Slips said, this just isn't true. IGAU had good attendance throughout the game's life. The only reason it's tapering off now is that MKX is near. While some quit, there are plenty more players that joined the fold who never gave a care about MK9.

TYM literally crashed after, maybe 3 grand finals in a row in the latter half of the game's life, due to the all the traffic. We actually had to upgrade the server.

Even tournaments as recent as KiT were incredibly exciting, with great matches, people traveling all the way from Cali, and a good deal of hype, so this false narrative needs to stop.
 
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Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
Premium Supporter
Like Slips said, this just isn't true. IGAU had good attendance throughout the game's life. The only reason it's tapering off now is that MKX is near. While some quit, there are plenty more players that joined the fold who never gave a care about MK9.

Even tournaments as recent as KiT were incredibly exciting, with great matches, people coming all the way from Cali, and a good deal of hype, so this false narrative needs to stop.
He's probably referring to the people he knows and is generalizing a bit. It's still a half truth. Imagine if all of the people that played in 2013 kept playing along with all of the new blood. Damn.
 
Like Slips said, this just isn't true. IGAU had good attendance throughout the game's life. The only reason it's tapering off now is that MKX is near. While some quit, there are plenty more players that joined the fold who never gave a care about MK9.

Even tournaments as recent as KiT were incredibly exciting, with great matches and a good deal of hype, so this false narrative needs to stop.
You cannot deny that 50/50's being so dominant in this game has nothing to do with people quitting the game. Whether it is right before mkx's release or before. Safe 50/50's make people salty, that is a fact. It really isn't just because MKX is coming out, it's a combination of both factors. At the end of the day, IGAU was dropped into a community that is an MK community before it is an NRS community. People just love themselves some MK. People who like injustice should just keep playing injustice. I've always wondered whether the people who didn't really like injustice but kept playing it were doing the right thing. They might have made the game look bad.

Not saying 50/50's are bad btw. Some people like it, some do.
 

Shady

Noob
Three things.

1. I think this happens with a lot of games where the attendance and life taper off. MK9 dropped off around Injustice, and Injustice is dropping off around MKX. While there will still be dedicated fans, people will migrate to fresher games. It's ultimately up to us to keep the game going and come out to tourneys and get hype. That's just what it is.

2. It's shit like this that kind of kills the community too. @Tom Brady is right that a lot of it is ego and us acting selfish and egotistical, putting ourselves before the community. We really need to come together and embrace the game, grind it, play it and support each other. Support people coming out to tournaments. In MK9, for a while it felt like there was a close knit circle at the top and then everyone else at the bottom just kind of there. We need to make an effort to open up and invite everyone in. Just because you're not a top player, doesn't mean you can't be part of the group. This is a big part of it.

3. We need to stop hating top players for using characters like Batgirl. You travel to win money, and you will use whatever tools you have to give you your best shot at doing so. Yes, you have fun, but at the end of the day you also want to win. You will use those characters. On the other hand, if you use a character who has safe 50/50s where both options lead into a combo, don't pretend like you don't, don't say "just learn the match-up" or "stop crying and figure it out." We're already doing that, and you are in fact using one of the better characters. You've made that choice. Own up to it.
 
Like Slips said, this just isn't true. IGAU had good attendance throughout the game's life. The only reason it's tapering off now is that MKX is near. While some quit, there are plenty more players that joined the fold who never gave a care about MK9.

TYM literally crashed after, maybe 3 grand finals in a row in the latter half of the game's life, due to the all the traffic. We actually had to upgrade the server.

Even tournaments as recent as KiT were incredibly exciting, with great matches, people traveling all the way from Cali, and a good deal of hype, so this false narrative needs to stop.
What I mean is that MKX gave hope of a game where the days of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50 would be removed or balanced better. With a new game that hopefully will fix these issues drawing near people began to lose interest in IGAU. As MKX draws closer and closer players are remembering just how tired they are/were of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50. The option to play a newer and hopefully better game is what ultimately killed IGAU, but the other issues(including the issues we caused ourselves) didnt do it any favors.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
What I mean is that MKX gave hope of a game where the days of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50 would be removed or balanced better. With a new game that hopefully will fix these issues drawing near people began to lose interest in IGAU. As MKX draws closer and closer players are remembering just how tired they are/were of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50. The option to play a newer and hopefully better game is what ultimately killed IGAU, but the other issues(including the issues we caused ourselves) didnt do it any favors.
Hehe, and the funny thing is, you know what that reminds me of... The feeling at the end of MK9 when "New game" was going to solve all of our problems :p

Remember the months and months people spent begging for a last patch, slowly making "I'm quitting" threads one by one, and talking about "well, in the next game". Page after page about input bug, meter drain glitch, Cyrax's resets, Kabal, etc.

If one thing has changed though, it's that people now realize that this Mortal Kombat may be the only one we get for the next 4 years. Back throughout most of MK9's life, we'd always assumed that the next MK game wasn't too far away; so when IGAU was announced, it was a bit of a shock to the system. I think with this mindset firmly in place, people will hold on to MKX a little more tightly than before.
 
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Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
And can we change the thread title to 'Boxy Hypothesis' instead of 'Boxy Theory'?
Because it only counts as a hypothesis if I'm building an experiment around it.
And before one builds a hypothesis, they have to have a theory behind it.

Science :D <3.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
The whole "no one else is winning with X character" in order to justify the notion that a character is "fine", is definitely a fallacy. But @Tom Brady covered that so I'll just leave it at that.

Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, the prime reason MK9 and Injustice "died" is primarily due to the lack of support NRS has for their games after ~2 years. Not to mention the reason they stop supporting it is because they're working on a new, and arguably better game. The way their business model is really hinders the competitive scene for the current game. They patch early and often, exhaust their funds and/or resources for the game, then move on. Obviously this is better than never patching at all, but that kind of system lends itself to games just dying off after awhile. They aren't entirely to blame, of course. As Melee has shown us, if you're passionate enough about a game, developer support is irrelevant. I would like to see where Vanilla SF4 would be in 2015 though if Capcom stopped supporting it after 2011.

Like I said though, the blame can never fall entirely on the game itself or NRS. We have to at some point take responsibility for our game and community and say "yeah, you know what, we fucked up, we need to do better next time". Hopefully we can sustain the life of MKX long after the announcement and release of the next NRS game.
 

cR WoundCowboy

WoundCowbae <3
Yes Batgirl is really dumb, but I want to say this. I don't think anyone is putting enough time into the Batgirl matchup to stand a chance against Sonicfox.

For example, I've never took Batgirl into training mode once, not once ever. So I don't know any of her strings, I don't know what is frame advantage and what is punishable, I don't know when I should be poking out of pressure or respecting etc. Batgirl is super foreign to me, especially because there are barely any Batgirl players to train with. And whomever is the 2nd best Batgirl or 3rd best Batgirl isn't even 50% as good as Sonic.

If I was smart tho, I would think to myself "hey, if I keep winning in tournament I'm eventually going to have to fight against Sonicfox, maybe I should learn how to fight Batgirl." Anyone can take Batgirl into training mode for a few hours and record the dummy doing all her strings, then test all your character's possible options after everything Batgirl can do. Just spend a day in training mode figuring out what Batgirl has that's safe, what does she have that's punishable, what gimmicks is Sonicfox getting away with because we dont know the matchup. You have 10x better chance fighting Batgirl if you know her inside and out, that's why I feel so confident fighting against Batman because I know everything there is to know about the character.

I feel like everyone is losing to Sonicfox because he is so godlike, but at the same time everyone is too lazy to try to learn the matchup and actually figure out how to fight Batgirl. She's not broken
So... you're admitting that you aren't smart? ;)
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
The whole "no one else is winning with X character" in order to justify the notion that a character is "fine", is definitely a fallacy. But @Tom Brady covered that so I'll just leave it at that.

Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, the prime reason MK9 and Injustice "died" is primarily due to the lack of support NRS has for their games after ~2 years. Not to mention the reason they stop supporting it is because they're working on a new, and arguably better game. The way their business model is really hinders the competitive scene for the current game. They patch early and often, exhaust their funds and/or resources for the game, then move on. Obviously this is better than never patching at all, but that kind of system lends itself to games just dying off after awhile. They aren't entirely to blame, of course. As Melee has shown us, if you're passionate enough about a game, developer support is irrelevant. I would like to see where Vanilla SF4 would be in 2015 though if Capcom stopped supporting it after 2011.

Like I said though, the blame can never fall entirely on the game itself or NRS. We have to at some point take responsibility for our game and community and say "yeah, you know what, we fucked up, we need to do better next time". Hopefully we can sustain the life of MKX long after the announcement and release of the next NRS game.
All of the yes.

That's why I came back home to TYM: our scene and this game needs everyone on this one, and MK will always have my complete loyalty. All the support and knowledge and unity and passion we're capable of producing. This time, the potential it holds to be the one where the NRS scene breaks tradition and pushes its title to previously untouched heights is too big to ignore. IGAU was a chance to learn from our mistakes and get all the bullshit out of our system.
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
We turned our community into an a place that felt uninviting - Many of us, including myself are guilty of this. Constant bickering, name calling, sitting online for 3 hours waiting for someone on your friends list to sign on so you can finally get in a quality set, saying things like "Why is this guy allowed to talk about the game" which makes players feel like they are not allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, etc.. all became huge turn offs. One of my biggest regrets is my inability to let go of my own childish ego for the better of the community. MANY of us let our ego's and petty differences rip things apart. Not only did players already here get turned off by this, but anyone looking to get into the game but unsure also became turned off.
It's worth noting that this isn't even a TYM problem, or an MK community problem specifically. Fighters have a lot of ego period and people are constantly looking for a way to stratify the community. This is good in that it drives competition, but for building up communities and brands it's very, very bad. No game but SF4 even has room to support stratification of players like that - a smaller game has to be inclusive or it doesn't have a community at all.

A big thing I think people need to give up the grudge on is a bias against online. Is it as good as competing offline, especially in a game with shakier netcode? Well, of course not. It's not like we don't know this, but something is better than nothing. Even if it's imperfect, people are playing the game, they're trying to participate in the community and improve their skills. If someone does that and makes an honest effort that's dismissed out of hand, how hard do you think they're really going to try to stay in the community, to continue trying to grow and improve? How does that help to make an online player into an offline player; someone who's invested enough that they make the time, spend the effort and the money to get out and play at the highest level? We're the only genre that does this. If you want to grow and improve your community, don't block off the best road you have to bring new people into it.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
batgirl is literally kabal

...right?
Incorrect, sir. There is no Kabal-esque character to speak of in IGAU: one, because the physics of the two games + the ways the Kabal MU broke down/how he actually asserts his dominance = there's no way a character could have the incredible build/possession of a crippling move or mechanic and daunting MU statistics Kabal did in a game like IGAU without appearing to be utterly fucked and broken (ex. Day 1 Scorpion); and two, because as bad as Babs can be, there are at least 5 more characters I can think of right off the bat that possess equally fucked up whispers-of-OP-level power and could overrun a tournament easily with the right amount of training and luck: Bane and his Venom, Batman's J2/Bats in tandem, Zod's projectile arsenal, MMH's full screen versatility, and the Fish Man.

This is what happens when you throw dirty tricks around to half the cast in a game that relies almost more on luck than it does on skill and makes it almost impossible to see a difference between the two.