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A Boxy Debate: "Batgirl Was The Omen."

Matix218

Get over here!
Absolutely. He is on par with the likes of Justin Wong, PR Balrog, and Snake Eyes.

By the way, I did fine versus his Mileena, but we only played on PSN.
Dave be reasonable. He may not be Justin, Daigo, PR Rog, etc but he is currently (at least in America) one of the most successful players in multiple fighting games. There is no way a player does that well based on just "playing batgirl". Anyone can pick Batgirl at player select, she is not reserved only for Fox. If she's so brain dead unbeatable broken why is every top player not picking her and guaranteeing top 8 for themselves? Its a really good character but an even better player.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
nobody listens to you cause you have an outstanding track-record of saying dumb things. case in point.
Yeah, sure. Because using the cartwheel option select is "dumb". Because backdashing after a blocked ji2 is "dumb". Because stuffing cartwheel on wakeup is "dumb". Not that most people continually fail to do these things even though the one or two people that do do them prove that they help. If you're talking about the reaction thing then that's one thing, not a "track-record". You don't even play Batgirl anyway so I don't blame you for thinking my advice is "dumb".

And if you're saying what I think you're saying, how is her losing to Aquaman dumb?
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
THIS IS GETTING INTENSE

I WISH I HAD PIE

Why can't what remains of the IGAU competitive scene be as hype as this argument?
I maintain, Babs was only the first major sign; she wouldn't have been enough to kill the pulse by herself. Everyone who thought REO and Kabal were going to be the death of MK9 turned out to be wrong. IGAU, in it's and Batgirl's and Fox's defense, has had to put up with a lot more shit in its efforts to thrive or at least stay alive than MK9 did.
 

Shaazzyam

undefeated online evo champion
Yeah, sure. Because using the cartwheel option select is "dumb". Because backdashing after a blocked ji2 is "dumb". Because stuffing cartwheel on wakeup is "dumb". Not that most people continually fail to do these things even though the one or two people that do do them prove that they help. If you're talking about the reaction thing then that's one thing, not a "track-record". You don't even play Batgirl anyway so I don't blame you for thinking my advice is "dumb".

And if you're saying what I think you're saying, how is her losing to Aquaman dumb?
the list is bigger than that, trust me.

i know how batgirl works, and i know how AM works, and i know mmh works prob better than most. if you think AM, not mmh, has a greater advantage then you don't what ur talking about m8
 

SaltFace NS

Ultimate Mileena Exterminator
MR REASONABLE HERE.

WHAT YALL DONT UNDERSTAND IS....
Batgirl. Yes she has a vortex and Great set ups. But she has to get you in there.

Her neutral game is pretty hard. All her moves are 15 frames or unsafe. ( hence why NW, aquaman, and martian give her trouble) Her options in the neutral can be kind of* gimped by ducking REACTING and baiting. ( this is where the player error comes in, and SONIC IS HELLA SUPERIOR ) in the neutral her options are whiff punish YOUR MISTAKE with b1, use Batarangs to catch wreckless dashes cause by YOU, dash up DP, use her 8 frame d1, cartwheel which anti airs but no one ever uses the option select, and Teleport which is HELLA yolo and takes ~28 frames to like so its a read so you werew reckless. Her best option is dash to cover space and get a reaction. To win with batgirl you have to be superior in you neutral game and reads. Reasons why, 16 bit, pig, deg, jupiter, Carl and saltface give fox a challenge.

She easily top 5 but beatable. Get over it. And hopefully y'all use training mode in MKX. DONT TEST YOUR SWAGGY COMBOS. LEARN YOUR FRAMES, YOUR STRINGS, YOU OPTIONS IN YOUR MUs, and then find tech.
I'm glad you finally realized the importance of what I've preached all through this game.

Tech is great but means nothing if there are no fundamentals there to apply it in an intelligent manner. That's why I always preach about learning the neutral game before anything.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
the list is bigger than that, trust me.

i know how batgirl works, and i know how AM works, and i know mmh works prob better than most. if you think AM, not mmh, has a greater advantage then you don't what ur talking about m8
Hahaha sure you do. Nice evidence you're bringing there.
 

d3v

SRK
TYM community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Complain about character and kill the scene.

Capcom community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Plays game(s) for ten more years.

/kappa
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
TYM community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Complain about character and kill the scene.

Capcom community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Plays game(s) for ten more years.

/kappa
*Awaits Ultra Super Injustice: Arcade Edition*
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
TYM community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Complain about character and kill the scene.

Capcom community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Plays game(s) for ten more years.

/kappa
The Street Fighter community - let's be honest, that's all it is (hey, remember how long the "Capcom" community kept SFxT alive?) - is in a pretty unique position, and it has absolutely nothing to do with community mentality. Street Fighter has been the name-brand competitive fighter for essentially as long as competitive gaming has existed (and as I mention a lot, I cut my teeth on ST), and it's the one and only fighter in the current market that has a self-sustaining critical mass. The entire genre is peanuts compared to say, MOBAs, and it's a very small group of people keeping any other competitive scene for a fighter alive. Pound-for-pound, people who play niche games have more passion than the average Street Fighter fan, especially these days. But if you think simply being the accessible, pop-sensible, lowest common denominator Call of Duty of your genre is a high water mark, well, more power to you, I guess.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Yeah, sure. Because using the cartwheel option select is "dumb". Because backdashing after a blocked ji2 is "dumb". Because stuffing cartwheel on wakeup is "dumb". Not that most people continually fail to do these things even though the one or two people that do do them prove that they help.
Only the cartwheel option select is legit; the other 2 aren't 'dumb' but they aren't these great tactics that people disregard.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Only the cartwheel option select is legit; the other 2 aren't 'dumb' but they aren't these great tactics that people disregard.
They are legit, and most people do disregard them because I only see one or two people actually take advantage of them. They're legit because they take advantage of one of the basic game mechanics: backdash invincibility. I understand that not all characters have long enough dashes to completely avoid B12 (even though I haven't actually fully tested this myself yet I'm just taking your word for it) and that stuffing cartwheel isn't easy but it doesn't take long to go into practice and actually practice these and/or test these options. It helps in the matchup, if it didn't then we wouldn't see Jupiter or Honeybee or even Splash do so well (although of course they'd still do well because they're good players and they play good characters). As Tesco say, "Every little helps" :DOGE
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
They are legit, and most people do disregard them because I only see one or two people actually take advantage of them. They're legit because they take advantage of one of the basic game mechanics: backdash invincibility. I understand that not all characters have long enough dashes to completely avoid B12 (even though I haven't actually fully tested this myself yet I'm just taking your word for it) and that stuffing cartwheel isn't easy but it doesn't take long to go into practice and actually practice these and/or test these options. It helps in the matchup, if it didn't then we wouldn't see Jupiter or Honeybee or even Splash do so well (although of course they'd still do well because they're good players and they play good characters). As Tesco say, "Every little helps" :DOGE
No they are not. The timing of backdashing j2 mixups depends on the height of the j2 when you block it, and the timing of the of the input afterwards, which you simply can't factor in. We saw splash getting blown up for doing it because it's not consistent. Just look at the risk/reward, you get blown up or you simply go back to neutral. Some times you get a punish, but if I was a batgirl player I'd love if the opponent tried to backdash the majority of the time. Even then she can just do j3 which is stupid on block. And stuffing cartwheel is a bill because of her other invincible wakeups, case and point Jupiter. He stuffed the majority of her cartwheels but still lost the set because all she has to do it hit you with one teleport or DP on wakeup and you're fucked, whilst you're sitting there trying to punish her 12% damage cartwheel. It's far better just blocking and taking the option select.
 
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Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
TYM community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Complain about character and kill the scene.

Capcom community:
-Find a character/s who "break the game"
-Plays game(s) for ten more years.

/kappa
This is part of the whole center of the argument.
When it comes to Capcom titles - hell, pretty much any major fighter - there's always a hook, a driving motivation that makes you grind and fight and evolve. Marvel has the mayhem (and the Yipes commentary), SF is the professional kung fu title, MK has the gore and the block button, Tekken and Soul Calibur (and the anime community) have all been around so long and have such a wider global presence that they're always drawing in some way or another, Smash has probably the most devoted playerbase there is in the States...

...so what's Injustice's hook?
Because unless you genuinely love DC or you're a still-active tournament player who can't stop 'cause they won't stop, it feels like it has/had no big draw to insure the growth or preservation of its scene or make it stand out other than for the sole fact that it was the "it" game on the circuit until KI came along and MKX was announced.
It's like the ant and the grasshopper, there was no way to store the food for the winter...
Of course, months/years worth of the traditional bitching-instead-of-grinding approach didnt do much to help, either.
But even so, when you think about it, this game was never meant to be a big time/full time draw. An eventual IGAU2 may do better, because ultimately you aren't just competing against other games to attract players, you're competing against their legacies, and Injustice had to build its own from the ground up. But it was only going to be able to go so far, especially when who knows how many possible interesting or talented players said screw this noise after watching Babs batkicking the shit out of 2014/15.

That's why I see her as the doom.
Because it was her arrival that made me see that the game had no long-term hook.
She didn't burn it all down, she just struck the match.
 
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Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
No they are not. The timing of backdashing j2 mixups depends on the height of the j2 when you block it, and the timing of the of the input afterwards, which you simply can't factor in. We saw splash getting blown up for doing it because it's not consistent. Just look at the risk/reward, you get blown up or you simply go back to neutral. Some times you get a punish, but if I was a batgirl player I'd love if the opponent tried to backdash the majority of the time. Even then she can just do j3 which is stupid on block. And stuffing cartwheel is a bill because of her other invincible wakeups, case and point Jupiter. He stuffed the majority of her cartwheels but still lost the set because all she has to do it hit you with one teleport or DP on wakeup and you're fucked, whilst you're sitting there trying to punish her 12% damage cartwheel. It's far better just blocking and taking the option select.
Yeah, and it's not hard to judge when you have to backdash based on when the j2 hits you. It's a well known fact that backdashes have invincibility frames at the beginning of the backdash, therefore you would backdash as late as possible, or in other words just before the mix up is going to hit. If it's delayed then you've backdashed anyway and the Batgirl has to come get you. It's making the Batgirl player have to guess now, it at least makes the Batgirl have to take another risk in that area. I do think J3 should be used more though because that way backdashes aren't even a factor. Stuffing cartwheel is a bill?! I'm praying you don't mean that as in it's not stuffable. Obviously it's to do with reads, but even if a cartwheel is obviously coming noone even tries to stuff it. And you're right, it probably is better to block and take the option select but the problem is that noone does that.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Yeah, and it's not hard to judge when you have to backdash based on when the j2 hits you. It's a well known fact that backdashes have invincibility frames at the beginning of the backdash, therefore you would backdash as late as possible, or in other words just before the mix up is going to hit. If it's delayed then you've backdashed anyway and the Batgirl has to come get you. It's making the Batgirl player have to guess now, it at least makes the Batgirl have to take another risk in that area. I do think J3 should be used more though because that way backdashes aren't even a factor. Stuffing cartwheel is a bill?! I'm praying you don't mean that as in it's not stuffable. Obviously it's to do with reads, but even if a cartwheel is obviously coming noone even tries to stuff it. And you're right, it probably is better to block and take the option select but the problem is that noone does that.
Yes it is hard to judge. All these things are a factor in the timing of the backdash and they take place in fractions of a second which is too quick to consistently react when reward is often so little and the risk is huge. No one is backdashing it consistently because it can't be done consistently, and there is no risk for Batigirl. If she really REALLY wants she can just do a non-mixup string from j2 and catch the opponent mashing backdash, there is no risk on her part for this. And I specifically said that stuffing cartwheel is a bill because she has other invincible launching wakeups, not because it can't be stuffed. And people DO it, Jupiter does it but it doesn't change the outcome because it's not this be-all and end-all tactic. She's not like Raven where you can just mash her out on wakeup if you know the timing which works on both attacks. And blocking on wakeup just lets her get up and pressure you or just backdash and reset the spacing. These aren't great anti-Batgirl tactics we're talking about, they are general options that Batgirl has got good counters to.
 

Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
Premium Supporter
@Lt. Box

ONE PLAYER has ever done well in tournament with batgirl and that is sonicfox.

I have to disagree entirely. What killed the game was the game... because it was built on every character having ridiculous 50/50's into 50/50's into 50/50s. 2 guess and you're dead.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Yes it is hard to judge. All these things are a factor in the timing of the backdash and they take place in fractions of a second which is too quick to consistently react when reward is often so little and the risk is huge. No one is backdashing it consistently because it can't be done consistently, and there is no risk for Batigirl. If she really REALLY wants she can just do a non-mixup string from j2 and catch the opponent mashing backdash, there is no risk on her part for this. And I specifically said that stuffing cartwheel is a bill because she has other invincible launching wakeups, not because it can't be stuffed. And people DO it, Jupiter does it but it doesn't change the outcome because it's not this be-all and end-all tactic. She's not like Raven where you can just mash her out on wakeup if you know the timing which works on both attacks. And blocking on wakeup just lets her get up and pressure you or just backdash and reset the spacing. These aren't great anti-Batgirl tactics we're talking about, they are general options that Batgirl has got good counters to.
A full jump into jump 2 is not hard to react to. The unreactable part of jump attacks is telling which jump normal it is that's hitting or is going to hit. The jump arc itself is slow enough, but even when jump 2 is about to hit you/is coming out can tell if it's been done slightly earlier or slightly later as she's falling. If it's done a fraction of a second earlier then you wait a fraction of a second longer before backdashing, or else you can tell it hasn't hit earlier and it's going to hit you a fraction of a second later so you backdash earlier/instantly. I've been over this with Oxygen in a stream chat. He told me Lobo for example couldn't backdash it and I explained to him how he was wrong after I tested it myself and he realised what I was saying. If I can do it, if Honeybee can do it, so can anyone else. To save the rest of this thread becoming an argument I will test this later myself with every character for different timings of J2 (recording the AI doing it randomly of course) and tell you what I've found out. If there are characters that can't avoid it then fine I won't go on about it, but if someone is playing a character that can backdash it then I have every right to say that it's possible and should be done more often. And as for doing a non-mixup string, technically if they're inputting backdash they're inputting back so they'll just block it, but there's not much use in talking about it since it never happens. It is an option though but not one that she needs to implement if the opponent isn't backdashing anyway.
"People" do not do it, I only recall Jupiter ever doing it. If you can provide evidence that shows otherwise then fair enough but noone else does it to my recollection. It's not a "be-all end-all" tactic, nor did I even say it was, I'm saying it helps. All these little things help. I'm not guaranteeing it will win them the matchup but look at how well Honeybee did before he lost focus in the last match and got himself put into the vortex. He won FIVE games, who else has done that? Or at least recently?
I'm not denying that Batgirl has good options, she has a multitude that keep the opponent scared and having to guess and that's what makes her such a good character, but she's not as impossible to beat as everyone thinks.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I AM MADE OF EVERYONE.
Premium Supporter
@Lt. Box

ONE PLAYER has ever done well in tournament with batgirl and that is sonicfox.

I have to disagree entirely. What killed the game was the game... because it was built on every character having ridiculous 50/50's into 50/50's into 50/50s. 2 guess and you're dead.
That's what I've been saying this whole time!
I completely agree with you and this statement. What I mean is that, IMO, Batgirl isn't the best in the game, isn't Kabal-level fucked up, isn't cheaper than Fish Man, and would probably be WAY less daunting a task if there were more capable hands at work fighting her in show and trying to beat not just Sonic, but everyone else...but from a visual and physical standpoint, she is THE prime example out of the entire roster of how ridiculous and sometimes hopeless trying to guess your way out of life and death in this game can be. Plenty of characters from Bats to Bane to Flash can dump you on your head with the 50/50 physics, but does anyone make it look as all-hope-is-gone devastating as Babs?


She is a boner killer.
She is the complete opposite of pie.
 
@Lt. Box

ONE PLAYER has ever done well in tournament with batgirl and that is sonicfox.

I have to disagree entirely. What killed the game was the game... because it was built on every character having ridiculous 50/50's into 50/50's into 50/50s. 2 guess and you're dead.
While I agree that IGAU's demise has nothing to do with Batgirl....Can we please sop the "only one player" nonsense?

In MK9 people say Cyrax was broken.. Why is that when "Only one person ever won a major with him"? Look at just how flawed that logic is. Before DJT used him as a main there was basically just Maxter who consistently had him in the top. After Maxter stopped playing we didn't see Cyrax in the top anymore until DJT used him to place top and then go onto win EVO. To this day, DJT's win at EVO is the only time Cyrax has ever won a major.

How about Kenshi? People to this day joke about how broken he is. Why is that when "Only one person was winning with him"? During the prime of the game, NO ONE besides Pig was terrorizing people with him. In fact Pig was also the only person who was consistently winning Kenshi's 7-3 adv match ups like Kitana at the highest level. That's right... Players were trying to use this broken character but not only could they not place, they couldn't even win some of his 7-3s!!!!!! Yet we call him broken because only one person who showed us all why.



Now..to end this "what killed Injustice" thing...

1. The safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, into safe 50/50, etc... - Many players here say things like "this character only has a 50/50" but do not realize just how powerful a SAFE 50/50 is when BOTH options lead to a full combo. A safe 50/50 with both options giving a combo is one of the most powerful tools that a character can have in a fighting game, especially in a game where not all characters have this. A safe 50/50 that goes to combo is like playing poker with your own money vs someone else playing for free. Every hand they look at you, smile and say "WOOOOOO HOOOO!! THIS HAND IS GREAT!! I'M ALL IN!!!!" and they can do this because they have ZERO consequence when they are wrong. It would become almost impossible to read when they are bluffing or actually have something because there is 0.0% risk for them. You however are sweating bullets because losing for you means you go home broke. The other player has a GREAT read on you because they know that you literally cannot afford to be wrong.

People got tired of the safe meterless vortex and safe 50/50's so they began to quit one by one until there just weren't many players left travel for tournaments. Batgirl didn't kill IGAU, people were getting tired of this before her.

2. We turned our community into an a place that felt uninviting - Many of us, including myself are guilty of this. Constant bickering, name calling, sitting online for 3 hours waiting for someone on your friends list to sign on so you can finally get in a quality set, saying things like "Why is this guy allowed to talk about the game" which makes players feel like they are not allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, etc.. all became huge turn offs. One of my biggest regrets is my inability to let go of my own childish ego for the better of the community. MANY of us let our ego's and petty differences rip things apart. Not only did players already here get turned off by this, but anyone looking to get into the game but unsure also became turned off.

Whats done is done and we need to move on and know that this cannot carry over into MKX. Let it die right here, right now with IGAU.