Nightwolf General Discussion Thread

[TyCarter35]

Wait, did I miss the memo...when the fuck did 11 tick into command grab on block? It doesnt work in training, but online it sure does. WTF?

Ok to explain this the 11 ticks in training if u set the opponent to hold their block the whole time. However it's a gimmick since u can let go of block and mash any button and it will interrupt unlike most tick throws that normally requires u to neutral duck or do any move that requires u to crouch or jump, the same applies to his s2 which isn't really a tick throw but sort of is like 11

 

[Zviko]

I'm holding u/f and I can't land the j2 in time.

J2 has very good horizontal hitbox so you can do it earlier than you think.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

J2 has very good horizontal hitbox so you can do it earlier than you think.

Getting it no problem now, thanks.

 

[Zviko]

Has anyone committed to the command grab variation? I want to play it because of all the brutalities and tp but the damage sucks. What's your gameplan even and punishes? Whiff punishig, hit confirming into shoulder for 14% damage, D3 into command grabs, B34, 1+3 for optimal 20% punish? Zoning to bait counter zoning and punish that with tp? Seems very gimmicky.

 

[dribirut]

His f212 command grab mixup is complete trash. Every single option is super unsafe and gets no damage. Trash

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

Has anyone committed to the command grab variation? I want to play it because of all the brutalities and tp but the damage sucks. What's your gameplan even and punishes? Whiff punishig, hit confirming into shoulder for 14% damage, D3 into command grabs, B34, 1+3 for optimal 20% punish? Zoning to bait counter zoning and punish that with tp? Seems very gimmicky.

My guess is you're basically trying to get the KBs off, grab them constantly with regular grabs and command grab to get failed techs (and the ensuing KBs)

 

[Evil Canadian]

I'm holding u/f and I can't land the j2 in time.

You gotta do the j2 early. It has the big arc and has quite a few active frames, you need to do it early and it it on the later active frames. The window is fairly short.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

You gotta do the j2 early. It has the big arc and has quite a few active frames, you need to do it early and it it on the later active frames. The window is fairly short.

I've got it working now, just had to be a little earlier, yeah.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Has anyone committed to the command grab variation? I want to play it because of all the brutalities and tp but the damage sucks. What's your gameplan even and punishes? Whiff punishig, hit confirming into shoulder for 14% damage, D3 into command grabs, B34, 1+3 for optimal 20% punish? Zoning to bait counter zoning and punish that with tp? Seems very gimmicky.

I've been using both vars successfully so far.

Matoka Warrior:
Is the high damage variety but has less mix potential, mostly relies on wiff punishing and proper footsies to get the cash out into oki setups with wolf buff armor/baited WU's.

Ancestrial Gift:
This is obviously the CMD Grab variation along with being the go to mix em up close its also amazing at counter zoning and shines where Matoka Warrior doesn't.
He is very mixup heavy in this variation and has so many options:
Staggers off:
B1
B13
3
31
312

So many mids that force them to respect his high staggers.
Combine this with his F2121, B13, B34/B341+3, & Throws/CMD Grabs he has a ton of mix that forces them to worry.
His 11 is an auto Shimmy and is easily done into the current meta Strike/Throw guess game but in his case its Strike/Throw-KB/Strike CMD Grab/Shimmy/Overhead-Low guess game. This is enough to overwhelm even the best of players.
Yes he gets about 20% off his conversions and throws but he does have good KB's that will do at least 30% like his:

• Throw KB (Front or Back)
• Rhino Charge Amp KB (Back Throw sets it up) you want to Wiff the mid and only connect the OH because it has a ten frame gap.
• 312 I find his CMD grab has enough hit adv to be at the range needed and 312 sets up 312 where only the last hit connects (perfect).
• D2 KB does above 25-30% even with none optimals into CMD Grab and gives +70 hit advantage into meaty guess game and possible KB.

Damage isn't the biggest deal, he can punish so many things, there are even gals in strings he can TP through and punish them wiffing including many projectiles. Think Cassie Yaas Queen was considered Top 5 by SonicFox and she only gets 19-23% on her midscreen combos.
But there are clear advantages to choosing AG over MW: mad mix, counter zoning, full screen presence, reset neutral at will, punish gaps Matoka can't and badass brutality and normals.

But I use (Matoka Warrior mainly because I love the corner carry and armor setups from wolf buff Not to mention damage. But I use (Ancestrial Gift) vs Cetrion, Liu Kang, Cassie, Sonya Ring Master, Sub Zero, Noob Saibot.

I feel both variations are very solid. And getting low damage isn't a reason not to use his CMD Grab version so many characters have low damage and are very strong: Jade, Scarlet, Cetrion, Cassie, Jax and Shang Spellmaster come to mind.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Has anyone committed to the command grab variation? I want to play it because of all the brutalities and tp but the damage sucks. What's your gameplan even and punishes? Whiff punishig, hit confirming into shoulder for 14% damage, D3 into command grabs, B34, 1+3 for optimal 20% punish? Zoning to bait counter zoning and punish that with tp? Seems very gimmicky.

The more I play with Moonfall the more I think it should have been on this variation instead of tp. It works together with command grab and grappling seeker really well.

If the axe is down and they block f2121 you can just call the axe back to make it -4 or if they guess command grab it's a short juggle that can end in command grab for another Moonfall setup.

Kinda disappointed this isn't a ranked move.

 

[Zviko]

I've been using both vars successfully so far.

Matoka Warrior:
Is the high damage variety but has less mix potential, mostly relies on wiff punishing and proper footsies to get the cash out into oki setups with wolf buff armor/baited WU's.

Ancestrial Gift:
This is obviously the CMD Grab variation along with being the go to mix em up close its also amazing at counter zoning and shines where Matoka Warrior doesn't.
He is very mixup heavy in this variation and has so many options:
Staggers off:
B1
B13
3
31
312

So many mids that force them to respect his high staggers.
Combine this with his F2121, B13, B34/B341+3, & Throws/CMD Grabs he has a ton of mix that forces them to worry.
His 11 is an auto Shimmy and is easily done into the current meta Strike/Throw guess game but in his case its Strike/Throw-KB/Strike CMD Grab/Shimmy/Overhead-Low guess game. This is enough to overwhelm even the best of players.
Yes he gets about 20% off his conversions and throws but he does have good KB's that will do at least 30% like his:

• Throw KB (Front or Back)
• Rhino Charge Amp KB (Back Throw sets it up) you want to Wiff the mid and only connect the OH because it has a ten frame gap.
• 312 I find his CMD grab has enough hit adv to be at the range needed and 312 sets up 312 where only the last hit connects (perfect).
• D2 KB does above 25-30% even with none optimals into CMD Grab and gives +70 hit advantage into meaty guess game and possible KB.

Damage isn't the biggest deal, he can punish so many things, there are even gals in strings he can TP through and punish them wiffing including many projectiles. Think Cassie Yaas Queen was considered Top 5 by SonicFox and she only gets 19-23% on her midscreen combos.
But there are clear advantages to choosing AG over MW: mad mix, counter zoning, full screen presence, reset neutral at will, punish gaps Matoka can't and badass brutality and normals.

But I use (Matoka Warrior mainly because I love the corner carry and armor setups from wolf buff Not to mention damage. But I use (Ancestrial Gift) vs Cetrion, Liu Kang, Cassie, Sonya Ring Master, Sub Zero, Noob Saibot.

I feel both variations are very solid. And getting low damage isn't a reason not to use his CMD Grab version so many characters have low damage and are very strong: Jade, Scarlet, Cetrion, Cassie, Jax and Shang Spellmaster come to mind.

I don't understand why you mean by mix ups and staggers. Literally everything you said can be done in his Matoka variation. Mid staggers, high staggers, throws,... Command grab is a high, so are throws that deal more damage. So i have the same mix ups there if I want to do mid-throw-shimmy mix ups. The only command grab mix up is F212 and that can be canceled to from D1 and D3. But since it's a high, they can just poke under it.

So I still don't see the advantage of the second variation except it's a bit better anti zoning which the first one isn't bad at all anyway. But it doesn't get away with amplified projectiles like the second does so that really is strong. Maybe if they changed his command grab to mid. That would really make that variation good. No damage but very mix up heavy. Now I just can't see it.

 

[Zviko]

The more I play with Moonfall the more I think it should have been on this variation instead of tp. It works together with command grab and grappling seeker really well.

If the axe is down and they block f2121 you can just call the axe back to make it -4 or if they guess command grab it's a short juggle that can end in command grab for another Moonfall setup.

Kinda disappointed this isn't a ranked move.

I have no idea about that or any other move in the game for any other character. I'm only playing tournament variations.

What they could do is give damage buff to the second variation and something else to the first one. It would make more sense. You are +69 of his amplified command grab, that means free damage buff because it's 66 recovery. And you are still +3.

 

[kcd117]

He seems kinda free to crossups. Characters with decent jump kicks can abuse him bc his D2 has literally no hitbox just above his head.

B2 anti air is a major bill. I feel like it’s only purpose is to convert after a J2 you know is gonna hit.

About the variations, at first I thought matoka was better, but the more I play ancestral the more I question if this is really the case.

Ancestral’s neutral seems much better as he turns any projectile into a + pressure situation, has an untechable grab, has more useful krushing blows, and makes people move a lot more than they do vs matoka. The dmg potential is a bit lower but i gors from 27% to 19% basically, so idk if that’s a big issue.

 

[Blewdew]

This mans backdashing like he‘s fucking Michael jackson, he‘s extremely good at keeping you at a certain distance

 

[Zviko]

He seems kinda free to crossups. Characters with decent jump kicks can abuse him bc his D2 has literally no hitbox just above his head.

B2 anti air is a major bill. I feel like it’s only purpose is to convert after a J2 you know is gonna hit.

About the variations, at first I thought matoka was better, but the more I play ancestral the more I question if this is really the case.

Ancestral’s neutral seems much better as he turns any projectile into a + pressure situation, has an untechable grab, has more useful krushing blows, and makes people move a lot more than they do vs matoka. The dmg potential is a bit lower but i gors from 27% to 19% basically, so idk if that’s a big issue.

You can do much more than 27% though. You can spend 2 meters or with damage buff. Corner combos as well are none existent with Ancestral while Matoka is pretty good. 33% easy 1 meter or 28% meterless. Yes Ancestral has more KBs but Matoka compliments that with more kombo damage and extra damage with mutual KBs.

I don't know. I never actually tried Ancestral but I guess I'll have to to see what you guys are talking about. If anything, for brutalities at least. Also, weren't you rank 1 in season 1 on PS4? I guess I'll have to take your word for it then.

 

[Chuckyscookie]

Ex Tomahawk whiffs in the corner off certain starters, similar to how the launcher in Raijin whiffs. You have to delay the amplify and it's a weird window. Obviously not a huge deal since you dont need to amp for a combo in the corner, but the timing is tricky and I could see it screwing over players with execution struggles

Okay so it's not only me lol. It's really a bit annoying, especially because I still have trouble connecting the d1 for the meterless version consistently. The timing for the amplify works with some practice, but I still sometimes get it wrong in the heat of the moment in a match. I don't know if it's intended, it just feels a bit bugged.

Does anyone have tips how to get the d1 for the meterless corner combo consistently? Is there a trick or a certain timing?

 

[kcd117]

You can do much more than 27% though. You can spend 2 meters or with damage buff. Corner combos as well are none existent with Ancestral while Matoka is pretty good. 33% easy 1 meter or 28% meterless. Yes Ancestral has more KBs but Matoka compliments that with more kombo damage and extra damage with mutual KBs.

I don't know. I never actually tried Ancestral but I guess I'll have to to see what you guys are talking about. If anything, for brutalities at least. Also, weren't you rank 1 in season 1 on PS4? I guess I'll have to take your word for it then.

hahaha I was for a while, I think Ninjakilla passed me in the end tho.

I think that as long as the other character doesn't have a projectile as a fundamental footsie tool, Matoka is better. But If they do, and almost all the current top tiers do, what Ancient does for you is basically a "screw your neutral" for a bar with that teleport that I'm slowly falling in love with lol.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I don't understand why you mean by mix ups and staggers. Literally everything you said can be done in his Matoka variation. Mid staggers, high staggers, throws,... Command grab is a high, so are throws that deal more damage. So i have the same mix ups there if I want to do mid-throw-shimmy mix ups. The only command grab mix up is F212 and that can be canceled to from D1 and D3. But since it's a high, they can just poke under it.

So I still don't see the advantage of the second variation except it's a bit better anti zoning which the first one isn't bad at all anyway. But it doesn't get away with amplified projectiles like the second does so that really is strong. Maybe if they changed his command grab to mid. That would really make that variation good. No damage but very mix up heavy. Now I just can't see it.

AG has more mix than Matoka Warrior since he has ticks and TP. CMD Grab is way better than normal throw its not techable and that's huge.
Being able to punish stuff with TP and having full screen presence is huge. But like I said above I think both are good for thier own benefits.

 

[Marinjuana]

His f212 command grab mixup is complete trash. Every single option is super unsafe and gets no damage. Trash

Nonsense. Tell someone with 10% hp left that this mixup is trash. And you don't have to go for the mixup, you can stay safe.

 

[Marinjuana]

Ok to explain this the 11 ticks in training if u set the opponent to hold their block the whole time. However it's a gimmick since u can let go of block and mash any button and it will interrupt unlike most tick throws that normally requires u to neutral duck or do any move that requires u to crouch or jump, the same applies to his s2 which isn't really a tick throw but sort of is like 11

I think people are writing this off but it's still an offensive option. 111 and 11~cmd grab is a mixup, you can't mash out of both. To beat the mixup, you option select by letting go of block for a frame or two to make the cmd grab whiff. But if you do that, Nightwolf's 11 stagger becomes way better because you are wasting frames trying to avoid the command grab. Same idea with 222 and 2~cmd grab.

I think it's gimmicky in the sense that if you do it often then you will get punished for it but I think it's a viable mixup option, you just need to use it sparingly and with purpose.

 

[dribirut]

Nonsense. Tell someone with 10% hp left that this mixup is trash. And you don't have to go for the mixup, you can stay safe.

The mixup is you either get 12% if the command grab hits, 5% if they read comman grab and you go with safe ender, or they read the safe ender and you get 0% and lose turn.

As for getting punished, if they read comman grab you lose 30-40% or you do finisher, they read and you lose your turn.

Pretty bad if you ask me

 

[Zviko]

I don't understand. So blocked 11 into command grab whiffs in practice mode but hits online or what? Is that what some of you are saying?

 

[dribirut]

Now if the string ender did 10-15% damage or if it were plus 1 or two, I’d say it’s pretty good.

But if I’m dealing with it, I’ll just take the hit 90% of time, lose 5% (I actually think it’s 3%) and that one time you actually do it, punish you for 35%

 

[Juggs]

Pretty sure this is well known by now, but in case it isn’t, you can get a JI2 starter off of the Rhino Charge (bf4) KB. The timing is a little strict

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1162447383613136898

 

[Zviko]

I don't understand. So blocked 11 into command grab whiffs in practice mode but hits online or what? Is that what some of you are saying?

Nevermind, I get it now. You have to set it to stance block not block all. I had no idea 11 into command grab works. I thought it works only for canceling F2121 on the third hit. This actually is good. I'll definitely mess around with Ancestral some more during the weekend.