Nightwolf General Discussion Thread

[insignis]

My biggest question is why 222 string exists.

 

[AK Harold]

More staggers and hit confirm to ancestral gifts. Also deceptive range compared to 111 for punishes

 

[trufenix]

Huh? Nobody plays Grinnin' Barrett. What you talking about?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I think his OH/Low game is gonna be super strong tho. Not for 50/50s but for all the times you have to transition to block low while blocking high to avoid the OH. Then he staggers you, then he just does B1 xx Throw, then he just does Throw, then he does a safe string that's flawless blockable, then he D3s you and jails you into 312, then you block low to reversal poke his D3 but you eat the overhead, then you try and jump out so he JI2s you and collects a combo off it. It's all reactable or low reward but you have to be quick while hes collecting plus frames. Since you're looking out for all this stuff it'll be easy to get caught by things, or be more focused on blocking than countering him

To be fair everyone has throw strike mixup and poke/oh mixup. Its worth noting there is:
a 6f gap in his 312 and its 3rd hit so its reactable.
A 8f gap in his 112 so full combo punishable and reactable.
A 10f gap in his Shoulder Amp(Rhino Charge) full combo punishable and this one us more significant because:

1. The entire cast can punish not to mention top tiers with 9f mids.
2. It takes away the guess game between raw charge and amped overhead since you can punish both at the same timing. Well one is 2f later than the regular charge.

But people saying he is a mixup god are high AF and clearly salty.
All of his MIX its reactable besides pokes which every character has and for the most part punishable. I believe high level we will see his F2 land but that will require conditioning once everyone learns the MU since it is absolutely reactable. (Remember Sonic saying Subs 19f OH is reactable?) Well 24f is reactable by every competitive player. But I still feel he is strong and I'm glad he has built in weakness that's fair. But no doubt F2 will be strong after knockdown if they don't U3 and from max range if not Wiff punished.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

My biggest question is why 222 string exists.

Because it does the same damage as 31 and looks cool af and its easier to juggle with of dash cancels.

 

[Jowabunga]

Starting the last stage of his personal tower, playing exclusively with Matoka for now, I've unlocked 5 brutalities, one of which I can actually use with this variation (not counting the starting D2 one). Doing the toward throw one over and over and over. Feels bad man.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Well 24f is reactable by every competitive player. But I still feel he is strong and I'm glad he has built in weakness that's fair. But no doubt F2 will be strong after knockdown if they don't U3 and from max range if not Wiff punished.

It is in a purely laboratory situation sure. You eat enough d3 into whatever jails, you gonna reflex low block everything. People talk about whats reactable and whats not but I still see people get hit by jump attacks in every fighting game at the highest levels of play all the time and thats way the hell more than 24 frames.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

To be fair everyone has throw strike mixup and poke/oh mixup. Its worth noting there is:
a 6f gap in his 312 and its 3rd hit so its reactable.
A 8f gap in his 112 so full combo punishable and reactable.
A 10f gap in his Shoulder Amp(Rhino Charge) full combo punishable and this one us more significant because:

1. The entire cast can punish not to mention top tiers with 9f mids.
2. It takes away the guess game between raw charge and amped overhead since you can punish both at the same timing. Well one is 2f later than the regular charge.

But people saying he is a mixup god are high AF and clearly salty.
All of his MIX its reactable besides pokes which every character has and for the most part punishable. I believe high level we will see his F2 land but that will require conditioning once everyone learns the MU since it is absolutely reactable. (Remember Sonic saying Subs 19f OH is reactable?) Well 24f is reactable by every competitive player. But I still feel he is strong and I'm glad he has built in weakness that's fair. But no doubt F2 will be strong after knockdown if they don't U3 and from max range if not Wiff punished.

I agree with you on everything you're saying, but I'm asserting that all these tools mean he is forcing you to block several things in different patterns. That can be pretty mentally taxing in certain settings. Not like you're gonna get hit all the time by his sneaky lows, but when you mix in the ability to stagger these with throws he can make it really hard to know when to challenge. It's like if Kung Lao or Liu Kang had multiple normals to start stagger pressure with. Like in theory it's all beatable, but it still catches people pretty frequently.

His KBs arent as amazing as initially projected tho. The 312 is pretty usable and the throw ones are excellent. The shoulder I think should be utilized in the neutral more than on block

 

[ogrimtitan]

I’m a little confused about all his non-tournament moves. Either I’m missing something, or they add no real value to his arsenal. His rolling launcher is still 2 slots and does nothing the tomahawk doesn’t do, and the rest all just seem like variants on moves he already has. At least with Shang I felt like I could see the designs behind moves that weren’t tournament accessible, but I can’t do that with NW. Why would I ever choose lightning arrow or moon beam or rolling strike or etc.? I can’t see a reason.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It is in a purely laboratory situation sure. You eat enough d3 into whatever jails, you gonna reflex low block everything. People talk about whats reactable and whats not but I still see people get hit by jump attacks in every fighting game at the highest levels of play all the time and thats way the hell more than 24 frames.

I agree with you on everything you're saying, but I'm asserting that all these tools mean he is forcing you to block several things in different patterns. That can be pretty mentally taxing in certain settings. Not like you're gonna get hit all the time by his sneaky lows, but when you mix in the ability to stagger these with throws he can make it really hard to know when to challenge. It's like if Kung Lao or Liu Kang had multiple normals to start stagger pressure with. Like in theory it's all beatable, but it still catches people pretty frequently.

His KBs arent as amazing as initially projected tho. The 312 is pretty usable and the throw ones are excellent. The shoulder I think should be utilized in the neutral more than on block

I agree with both of you. My comment in here was in response to a top player saying "Nightwolf Overhead/Low mix are true 50/50's and God Like and he is cheap and broken"
I completely disagree with him on that I feel there is sufficient counter play built in as weaknesses as risk vs reward bit I do believe he is very good (but not broke) I also agree the overhead can catch even the best players off guard just like mileenas 30f overhead in MKX did. The animation of his F2 is deceiving but I feel he is honest. Jack of all trades but master of none type of toolset. Many characters have better mix and staggers than him:
Characters with 50/50's in form of OH/Low mixup:
Cassie, Sonya, Geras, Kabal, Jacqui, Sub Zero, Jax.
Several characters have better FB's, WU's, Range, Projectiles, Damage and KB's Than him.
But I feel NW is very good at almost everything and has decent tools for many situations and for that reason I feel he is at least top15.
He is like the Rushdown version of Shang being that jack of all trades.
I'm talking about Matoka Warrior not Ancestrial Gifts since I haven't explored that variation well.

Once players learn the matchup I feel it will be harder to open up good players but he does have mix for sure just not broken mix. His staggers are good but mostly off his 31(-3) and s3(+1 on block) Which are both highs. They are full combo punishable on reads but useable no doubt he does have a billion mids to condition them and one of the best D3's riveled by noobs.

 

[CorneliusBrutus]

I’m a little confused about all his non-tournament moves. Either I’m missing something, or they add no real value to his arsenal. His rolling launcher is still 2 slots and does nothing the tomahawk doesn’t do, and the rest all just seem like variants on moves he already has. At least with Shang I felt like I could see the designs behind moves that weren’t tournament accessible, but I can’t do that with NW. Why would I ever choose lightning arrow or moon beam or rolling strike or etc.? I can’t see a reason.

It's definitely not one of the best sets of abilities, certainly not even close to as good as Shang's. There's some things I want to try but they feel pretty situational, and you aren't likely to pick up situational abilities when you're spending 2x for a launcher. Lightning Arrow is actually better than I thought, it does 90 damage and knocks down so you can advance. The axe on the ground setup thing will definitely be fun and might be a sleeper. It feels like the go-to for many people will be a launcher for 2x points and the command grab.

The "theme" build around using all three animals must be truly atrocious, lol. That's really the greatest injustice. Druid build will have to wait for MK12.

 

[AK Harold]

Reacting to the overhead and avoiding it are two different things though. In ancestral gifts if they block the overhead, they get to play coinflip with you OR You can just be safe if you dont feel like it. It is a bit nerve racking and ideal for competitive to have a 3way option there.

 

[Hor_PeT]

To be fair everyone has throw strike mixup and poke/oh mixup. Its worth noting there is:
a 6f gap in his 312 and its 3rd hit so its reactable.
A 8f gap in his 112 so full combo punishable and reactable.
A 10f gap in his Shoulder Amp(Rhino Charge) full combo punishable and this one us more significant because:

1. The entire cast can punish not to mention top tiers with 9f mids.
2. It takes away the guess game between raw charge and amped overhead since you can punish both at the same timing. Well one is 2f later than the regular charge.

But people saying he is a mixup god are high AF and clearly salty.
All of his MIX its reactable besides pokes which every character has and for the most part punishable. I believe high level we will see his F2 land but that will require conditioning once everyone learns the MU since it is absolutely reactable. (Remember Sonic saying Subs 19f OH is reactable?) Well 24f is reactable by every competitive player. But I still feel he is strong and I'm glad he has built in weakness that's fair. But no doubt F2 will be strong after knockdown if they don't U3 and from max range if not Wiff punished.

Thanks for the lab work I just do mine and did not identify that gaps and interrupt options, yet.

There are weaknesses and gaps but he has lot of options even after 11 so there is room for guessing game but at least no brainded.

I came here to check the reactions. Now I am just preparing for the match up as "everybody" plays him but probably I will pick up too to get know him better.
I already noticed lot of flaws and punish options and it paid off against average casual unsafe Nightwolf players.

High level will be totally different.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I'm not seeing any hitbox issues other than Amped Arrow from half screen to close up. The arrow wiffs crouch blocking opponents so its nor useable on end of string as a staple but can be good nonetheless, safer than shoulder.

Anyone else find hitbox issues?

 

[DixieFlatline78]

I'm not seeing any hitbox issues other than Amped Arrow from half screen to close up. The arrow wiffs crouch blocking opponents so its nor useable on end of string as a staple but can be good nonetheless, safer than shoulder.

Anyone else find hitbox issues?

Ex Tomahawk whiffs in the corner off certain starters, similar to how the launcher in Raijin whiffs. You have to delay the amplify and it's a weird window. Obviously not a huge deal since you dont need to amp for a combo in the corner, but the timing is tricky and I could see it screwing over players with execution struggles

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Ex Tomahawk whiffs in the corner off certain starters, similar to how the launcher in Raijin whiffs. You have to delay the amplify and it's a weird window. Obviously not a huge deal since you dont need to amp for a combo in the corner, but the timing is tricky and I could see it screwing over players with execution struggles

Yes AA far as I can tell F12xxDF2-Amp wiffs in the corner but F2121/111/22/4/31/B13 don't for the most part. It seems NRS did pretty good with his mids. No wiffing on crouch block females other than ex arrow close up/jump distance

 

[Evil Canadian]

After playing some more NW I am really starting to feel the struggle of anti-airing stuff. Like mad obvious jumps I can stuff with stand 1 into small conversion if far, or d2, but these are jumps no character would have difficulty beating. Up close man I am struggling I just don't know what works and I am starting to worry he's just free to a lot of jump pressure.

Like I understand that as a Kollector guy I am a bit spoiled in the anti air department (stand 2 is great and lowers hurtbox, one of the better uppercut anti airs) but NW just seems to have a rough go of it.

Please let me know if I am missing something here.

 

[AK Harold]

@Evil Canadian have you tried his d4 it looks promising, I hadn't had too much lab time yet with him.

Also, his backdash is really really good and should keep you out of those scenarios to begin with.

 

[Evil Canadian]

@Evil Canadian have you tried his d4 it looks promising, I hadn't had too much lab time yet with him.

Also, his backdash is really really good and should keep you out of those scenarios to begin with.

I have tried but little luck so far, I suppose I could have mis-timed it many times over the course of the day but I don't feel very confident in it.

No problems on the backdash front, but a lot of the time you gotta stand your ground. Backdash stops the jumps that were easy to beat to begin with.

 

[TyCarter35]

After playing some more NW I am really starting to feel the struggle of anti-airing stuff. Like mad obvious jumps I can stuff with stand 1 into small conversion if far, or d2, but these are jumps no character would have difficulty beating. Up close man I am struggling I just don't know what works and I am starting to worry he's just free to a lot of jump pressure.

Like I understand that as a Kollector guy I am a bit spoiled in the anti air department (stand 2 is great and lowers hurtbox, one of the better uppercut anti airs) but NW just seems to have a rough go of it.

Please let me know if I am missing something here.

Wait ur seriously struggling to AA with Nightwolf? D2 has a huge hitbox and s1 and s2 is ok, his b2 is basically a shoryuken where u can get some solid coversions off it.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Wait ur seriously struggling to AA with Nightwolf? D2 has a huge hitbox and s1 and s2 is ok, his b2 is basically a shoryuken where u can get some solid coversions off it.

Its a huge hitbox, at the tip of it yes. Once again obvious jumps are not the issue. Before his active frames start he stands up quite tall and is basically free to jumpkicks like Baraka/Geras. Its a bad uppercut overall. Characters with good uppercuts like Kollector/Shao Kahn/Jade have their hurtbox remain relatively low to the ground before their active frames start up so they don't get stuffed by jumpkicks.

S1 only works when they are very far away(which once again, isn't an issue for literally any character). S2 doesn't work. B2 is like almost 20 frames dude.

Once again I will say perhaps I am a bit spoiled by playing Kollector, but against all but the most obvious jumps it seems NW struggles.

 

[elephantvision]

After playing some more NW I am really starting to feel the struggle of anti-airing stuff. Like mad obvious jumps I can stuff with stand 1 into small conversion if far, or d2, but these are jumps no character would have difficulty beating. Up close man I am struggling I just don't know what works and I am starting to worry he's just free to a lot of jump pressure.

Like I understand that as a Kollector guy I am a bit spoiled in the anti air department (stand 2 is great and lowers hurtbox, one of the better uppercut anti airs) but NW just seems to have a rough go of it.

Please let me know if I am missing something here.

Are you having trouble with the D2's? I think the D2 is incredibly easy to get off, not to mention if online allows you... you can convert it into a combo!

 

[Trustful_Whale]

U can jump in 2 after it, then go for b2 for meterless or f2121 amp df2

I'm holding u/f and I can't land the j2 in time.

 

[Flawless Thomas]

Wait ur seriously struggling to AA with Nightwolf? D2 has a huge hitbox and s1 and s2 is ok, his b2 is basically a shoryuken where u can get some solid coversions off it.

Dude his D2 seems slow af. Especially in the corner if someone neutral jumps you gotta block, d2 won't come out in time. Obviously I need far more playtime with him, but just what i've encountered thus far.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Wait, did I miss the memo...when the fuck did 11 tick into command grab on block? It doesnt work in training, but online it sure does. WTF?