Scorpion General Discussion

[spidey300]

Unfortunately F423 has ZERO push back and 7F jab can punish it for full combo. Not easy to find that frame though.
Plus F42 has huge gap and flawless block punish can come - so it is punishable enough to discourage players using it (nowadays probably does not matter as flawless block punish and precise punish are) - I do not do it either despite the fact that I know about it.

B143 is THE safe footsie string.

Yeah that's why i mentioned it puts you out of throw range. Probably won't save you from anything else. B143 still puts you in throw range maybe unless you space it super properly. Not a lot of people are flawless gaps on reaction so it's not that big of a deal

 

[NaughtySenpai]

And @ you motherfuckers suggesting worse frames for Scorpion:
Why?

You know I get the idea of a string being unsafe if it has an overhead and a low and either of these options either pops up or is special cancelable.

Not a single one of Scorpion's strings has a mixup though. You block everything by just asking yourself "Have I blocked b1?"- Block low! And if you've blocked anything else just block high.
Wow you've figured out Scorpion's strings which are only good for whiff punishment or landing a counterhit, in which case, why are they unsafe again?

 

[NaughtySenpai]

I really hate playing against Scorpion, its such a chore! What do you recommend I try against him? I can blow up his teleport just fine, its just his up close blockstrings (aside from 212) are really safe, and F34 is safe too, and his staggers are INSANE. Also DF4 is impossible to punish of you don’t have a fast advancing move.

What character do you play?

 

[Hor_PeT]

Yeah that's why i mentioned it puts you out of throw range. Probably won't save you from anything else. B143 still puts you in throw range maybe unless you space it super properly. Not a lot of people are flawless gaps on reaction so it's not that big of a deal

I don't understand. Zero pusback and up close is out of throw range? Do I miss something?

I labbed throw reversals and I got weird results but I do not know the reason lol.

 

[Hor_PeT]

f423 used to have a gap in between in the beta, but doesn't anymore. Or at least 7 frame jabs can't interrupt between f42 anymore, haven't tested this vs. Sub Zero.
Online vs. 7 frame jabs, the 3 in that string is almost safe.

I guess a way to make this string viable is to play Reborn and hellport cancel on block. Should also beat flawless block retaliation, haven't labbed it though.

Just do your lab work and you will realize that F42 into anything is fake if the opponent does the flawless block counter.
Not now (weeks-months later) and maybe not against 90% of the players (who does not care about FB) though lol.

Until that everything is good. And the first thing I was happy about Reborn is the usage of F42xx away tele lol. I do not really use that string with SR but I am just silly as nobody punishes it and most cases it hits lol - opponent usually try to walk away from B1 range.
I just do not want to get used to the "fake" things but probably it should be considered as a risk (high risk high reward) - I am not a good risk taker though.

 

[spidey300]

I don't understand. Zero pusback and up close is out of throw range? Do I miss something?

I labbed throw reversals and I got weird results but I do not know the reason lol.

I don't know. When I last tested it in training f423 on block put me at a range where I couldn't immediately be thrown midscreen. Where as Everytime I've done b143 on block it puts me in throw range.

 

[Hor_PeT]

I don't know. When I last tested it in training f423 on block put me at a range where I couldn't immediately be thrown midscreen. Where as Everytime I've done b143 on block it puts me in throw range.

Maybe if the last hit is blocked high it has that extra pushback.

 

[Elias6999]

What character do you play?

Sonya and Kitana. I have more trouble playing as Sonya against him though.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Sonya and Kitana. I have more trouble playing as Sonya against him though.

Play Sonya strength: 50/50.
You probably will not be able to zone against Scorpion.

If you are beaten in neutral that's it.

You had problem with 212, F34 : learn flawless block. Both can be punished.

 

[jcbowie]

Made more unsafe? You're kidding me. While people like gerras, erron, sonya, jaqui, baraka get to walk away with all the frames in the world.

Scorpion has the best special move in the game, bar none, in addition to his above average frames. Talking about other characters' tools does nothing to change Scorpion or where he stands right now. I'm not convinced he needs more than minor changes, but certainly no buffs to his frames.

 

[Juggs]

You definitely can make a read on the TP cancel and punish it. I also think there’s a way to look at the defensive meter to see it being used and then know a cancel is coming. But I haven’t tested it yet.

This was an awesome comeback, but go to 29 seconds to see me reading and reacting to the TP cancel. It definitely has to be a read. Wasn’t an optimal combo punish though, just a safe one. Really wanted the comeback and didn’t want a dropped combo or execution error to be the reason I didn’t.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1128523865733455872

 

[OutworldKeith]

Yo. Been using Scorpion vs. the CPU (since I haven't played online yet).

Been doing: F4, 2, 3 into EX teleport into 4 into EX Spear into 212 for the fatal blow shit around 34% with DOT. Is this Reborn's staple BNB? Of course without the fatal blow you'd want to end with F4, 2, 3 right?

I know F3 is one of his best moves, only -2 on block and a good amount + on hit for the mix-ups.

I don't know if I've been doing this shit right.

I know 2, 1 is good + on hit too.

Doesn't F4, 2, 3 have a gap in it?

Is Scorpion as simple as he seems?

I’m sure everyone has answered your questions by now lol.

His best tools are f3, b1, b2, all his low pokes are good.

I don't get why he's considered brain dead though when Liu Kang's F4 is 9 frames. It's the only thing he need.

Scorpion does not really needs a nerf at all. Right now I am mailing reborn. I just love how his b4 works and I've never mained Scorpion before.

I would be fine with the mb teleport on block removed though. It's pretty fair when no other character can mb on block.

He’s considered brain dead because the teleport cancel allows him to be a jumping bean for free. Not to mention his damage is good lol.

 

[Bliss]

I’m sure everyone has answered your questions by now lol.

His best tools are f3, b1, b2, all his low pokes are good.

He’s considered brain dead because the teleport cancel allows him to be a jumping bean for free. Not to mention his damage is good lol.

What's the use in his B2.

And B1 is just a long mid normal right? For whiff punishing.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Also for some reason reason I've been dropping amp teleport f3 11 quite a bit lately and I wasn't before. Do most of you dash after amp tele or just slightly walk?

Not even walk is needed after amp tele f3, 11. 11 has pretty good range it will connect without walk (if the timing is okay).
However dash after F3 can not hurt but I think the faster F3 is more important than the dash).

 

[NaughtySenpai]

I don't get why he's considered brain dead though when Liu Kang's F4 is 9 frames. It's the only thing he need.

Scorpion does not really needs a nerf at all. Right now I am mailing reborn. I just love how his b4 works and I've never mained Scorpion before.

I would be fine with the mb teleport on block removed though. It's pretty fair when no other character can mb on block.

You mean like Kano, D'Vorah and Baraka?

Also for some reason reason I've been dropping amp teleport f3 11 quite a bit lately and I wasn't before. Do most of you dash after amp tele or just slightly walk?

You can do it too early where the 2 drops. Gotta let them fall a bit to Scorp's chest height.

 

[Lum@na]

I think there is a reasonable argument to make at least the amp portion of his TP a high. I really like Scorpion but I do think he, geras, Sonya, and Erron all should have a little safety taken out of their game play, though I think he is certainly a weak offender given how vulnerable he is to breakaway.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.

 

[Matix218]

How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to say scorpion isnt that strong. Since f34 is safe and b143 is safe and can be hit confirmed into full combos, plus his 112 and 212 strings having good frame data for staggers (albiet being high on 1st hit) he is pretty damn good. Most of his damage, especially in reborn will always be mindgames with tick throws and teleport cancels but he is still super solid. I personally believe he is top 5 in the game atm. But that's just my opinion.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

No he's top tier for sure, I just don't like him mentioned in the same breath as Geras or Erron.

 

[Hor_PeT]

No he's top tier for sure, I just don't like him mentioned in the same breath as Geras or Erron.

I played Erron and Geras in the last 3-4 days. Yeah it is pretty different. I feel I need to put more work into the footsie game with Scorpion.
With Erron it can be played pretty lame... opponent minus? I start B222 go for cafee and see if i can combo or cancel to safe. Did I start b222 5 times and blocked? I rather cancel it after 2 hits to mess up with opponent lol.
Same with F32... Erron inputs pretty similar to Scorpion he was an easy pick.

Geras was not too difficult too I needed 2 minutes for the basic 320 combo - I learnt hitconfirm in 5 minutes during matches lol.

Then I played a bit Scorpion again and I needed to work hard for that hit. I still feel much better after a Scorpion win than after Erron/Geras. It feels I put more into the game to win this.
But I will need much more experience to say something more legit lol. I like Erron's lame playstyle (safe launchers are pretty broken though) but I also like the more strict play with Scorpion (less mixup options which needs to be played well to be successful).

I cant say with Erron and Geras it is much easier - first 5 online matches with Erron I couldnt even move lol. And probably I am still bad with it. But it feels lame and like toying with the other.

 

[Juggs]

I think there is a reasonable argument to make at least the amp portion of his TP a high. I really like Scorpion but I do think he, geras, Sonya, and Erron all should have a little safety taken out of their game play, though I think he is certainly a weak offender given how vulnerable he is to breakaway.

Scorpion would be terrible if not for his improved frame data from the beta. So making his normals or strings less safe would ruin him. His reg tp is -20, amp is -14, those are fine. Then in reborn you have tp cancel, which is the entire utility of the variation. The only change that would make any since is making the TP a high or not allowing amp tele on block (which would be hard to do realistically). Any other type of nerf would ruin the character.

 

[jozuvloke]

His dwn 3 needs to be nurfed! Asap!

 

[Matix218]

His dwn 3 needs to be nurfed! Asap!

His d3 that does 1% damage and doesnt jail into any of his mids on hit? Yeah that thing is straight up broken...

 

[Cobainevermind87]

His dwn 3 needs to be nurfed! Asap!

Are you thinking about his d4 instead?

 

[OutworldKeith]

How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.

Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.

 

[Hor_PeT]

Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.

You can be punished if the opponent breaks away in a good moment before you do the spear in bnb. Or what is the bnb which is spear breakaway proof (excluding the bnb which does not involve spear of course lol).