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Scorpion General Discussion

How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.
I think it is a bit of a stretch to say scorpion isnt that strong. Since f34 is safe and b143 is safe and can be hit confirmed into full combos, plus his 112 and 212 strings having good frame data for staggers (albiet being high on 1st hit) he is pretty damn good. Most of his damage, especially in reborn will always be mindgames with tick throws and teleport cancels but he is still super solid. I personally believe he is top 5 in the game atm. But that's just my opinion.
 
No he's top tier for sure, I just don't like him mentioned in the same breath as Geras or Erron.
I played Erron and Geras in the last 3-4 days. Yeah it is pretty different. I feel I need to put more work into the footsie game with Scorpion.
With Erron it can be played pretty lame... opponent minus? I start B222 go for cafee and see if i can combo or cancel to safe. Did I start b222 5 times and blocked? I rather cancel it after 2 hits to mess up with opponent lol.
Same with F32... Erron inputs pretty similar to Scorpion he was an easy pick.

Geras was not too difficult too I needed 2 minutes for the basic 320 combo - I learnt hitconfirm in 5 minutes during matches lol.

Then I played a bit Scorpion again and I needed to work hard for that hit. I still feel much better after a Scorpion win than after Erron/Geras. It feels I put more into the game to win this.
But I will need much more experience to say something more legit lol. I like Erron's lame playstyle (safe launchers are pretty broken though) but I also like the more strict play with Scorpion (less mixup options which needs to be played well to be successful).

I cant say with Erron and Geras it is much easier - first 5 online matches with Erron I couldnt even move lol. And probably I am still bad with it. But it feels lame and like toying with the other.
 
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Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
I think there is a reasonable argument to make at least the amp portion of his TP a high. I really like Scorpion but I do think he, geras, Sonya, and Erron all should have a little safety taken out of their game play, though I think he is certainly a weak offender given how vulnerable he is to breakaway.
Scorpion would be terrible if not for his improved frame data from the beta. So making his normals or strings less safe would ruin him. His reg tp is -20, amp is -14, those are fine. Then in reborn you have tp cancel, which is the entire utility of the variation. The only change that would make any since is making the TP a high or not allowing amp tele on block (which would be hard to do realistically). Any other type of nerf would ruin the character.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
How's he weak to breakaway? And how is he safe? His safest variant is Reborn which at least doesn't leave you highly negative right in somebody's face if you have defensive meter to spare. Searing Rage is unsafe as fuck. Every string leaves you at at least -8 up to -15 the specials are even worse. In addition to that none of the strings have alternate routes that could lead to a 50/50 guess, so once you know how to block him, you have him for a full combo punish on every dumb shit he tries.

The only thing he has going for him that makes him so incredibly strong is a sick footsie and whiff punishment game, amazing damage when he lands a hit and his f3 stagger mixups that setup counterhits and whiff punishes for said big damage.

I don't see the weakness to breakaway either. He can safely bait breakaway after a hellport launch with f3,11 or f3,21 leaving him at advantage for an oki situation, or he can choose to not let you breakaway at all and keep you on the ground with 250 dmg+ spear-only combo to close out rounds.

I wouldn't care if his amp tp would hit high, but I'd care a lot more about opinions, if they were at least informed by a portion of lab time.

I think the smartest way to fight him is to get right up in his grill because he lacks fasts mids (f3 is i13 and b1 is i14) where you can bully him. Another way to deal with f3,4 is to be close enough to not get hit at the tip where he can whiff punish your buttons after walking back from either f3 or f3,4 otherwise it's a guess, but you have to deal with this stagger shit from every character so you basically have make informed guesses and know the risk reward associated with stagger mixups in general.

Another one is just learn his strings:

You block f3 (against Searing Rage): You block high, then low
You block f4: You block high
You block anything else: You block low

The second hit of his strings is so negative that he can't stagger them and you should have time to either block the follow up or full combo punish him with a 1 starter, or at least d1/d3 and jail him.

Scorpion isn't even that strong, he's just one of the characters that have the luxury of actually having practical crushing blows. He's got a good portion of weaknesses and strengths and massive damage potential due to practical kbs.
A lot of other characters would be right up in his ballpark if they didn't have ridiculous crushing blow requirements and a few tweaks to some moves/variations.
Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.
 
Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.
You can be punished if the opponent breaks away in a good moment before you do the spear in bnb. Or what is the bnb which is spear breakaway proof (excluding the bnb which does not involve spear of course lol).
 
Yeah, that is why mildlying tweaking his TP is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
 
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Matix218

Get over here!
Yeah, that is why that is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
I would not change a thing on scorpion until it is proven that his current design is a problem. I have seen exactly zero scorpions running train on people in tournament so far. I know we have CB coming up but if he is not making a ton of noise there and at EVO I dont see how you could reasonbly ask for nerfs. Other than being able to mb teleport on block, I hope they remove it just so I can stop reading complaints about it and because it does nothing for the character anyway imo
 
Yeah, that is why that is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
Most accessible?
I could play Geras in 5 minutes pretty well lol - not high level though haha of course.
Erron Black took few hours practice in total mostly figuring out the strings and cancels.
Sonya mid screen Bnb was 5 minutes max. For medium level it is good enough.

Then with all of them I could play at least a level I could play with Scorpion at first. Of course more play gives more skill level but I can not say Scorpion was the easiest pick even on my casual medium level.

If you mean teleport spamming as most accessible I can not agree more but that should not be the primary reason to nerf him.

If you change the hitbox of the teleport it might not be able to whiff punish properly. And you can also delete Reborn variation as in reaction you just crouch and punish both cancel and normal teleport.
 
Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.
I usually bait breakaway with f3,11 or f3, 21 on the juggle. You can hit confirm both strings in that scenario and if they breakaway you got them lying in front of you with tons of advantage.
You're pretty vulnerable if you go for f3,f32,bf2 or f3,4,bf1 which can open you up for a full combo punish if they break away at a good time.



By the way:
Am I crazy or is the 212+4 portion of db3 amp,f3,212+4 super hard to link on female characters? Was thinking about doing a big Scorpion combo guide for Youtube and went to the lab with D'Vorah and while the link is certainly hard, it seemed infinitely harder on her than on a Scorpion dummy, to the point I had to add a dash after the hellport amp to get it more consistently.
 
Most accessible?
I could play Geras in 5 minutes pretty well lol - not high level though haha of course.
Erron Black took few hours practice in total mostly figuring out the strings and cancels.
Sonya mid screen Bnb was 5 minutes max. For medium level it is good enough.

Then with all of them I could play at least a level I could play with Scorpion at first. Of course more play gives more skill level but I can not say Scorpion was the easiest pick even on my casual medium level.

If you mean teleport spamming as most accessible I can not agree more but that should not be the primary reason to nerf him.

If you change the hitbox of the teleport it might not be able to whiff punish properly. And you can also delete Reborn variation as in reaction you just crouch and punish both cancel and normal teleport.
You don't need to change the hitbox to make it a high. That isn't the key feature. The visuals are unrelated to it's hit data as are the actual hitbox, ie Cassie's low shot is a mid because there is a basically a toggle in the code that says it's a mid. It is as low or lower visually and hitbox wise as many lows. Literally changing a mid to a high can be done with minimal effort. Look at Liu Kangs b2
 
You don't need to change the hitbox to make it a high. That isn't the key feature. The visuals are unrelated to it's hit data as are the actual hitbox, ie Cassie's low shot is a mid because there is a basically a toggle in the code that says it's a mid. It is as low or lower visually and hitbox wise as many lows. Literally changing a mid to a high can be done with minimal effort. Look at Liu Kangs b2
I do not think making it high will not affect his hitbox as as a HIGH it will e.g. not hit a crouching or low enough opponent - so hitbox is changed.
So what is the point of making it high? To not hit mid-low area.

But I am not an expert on this. And do not want to argue more. I will play what NRS will gave me. If it is a high I will play with that version of Scorpion - as I do not have other choice lol.
I just leave the thinking about hitbox to NRS.
 
I do not think making it high will not affect his hitbox as as a HIGH it will e.g. not hit a crouching or low enough opponent - so hitbox is changed.
So what is the point of making it high? To not hit mid-low area.

But I am not an expert on this. And do not want to argue more. I will play what NRS will gave me. If it is a high I will play with that version of Scorpion - as I do not have other choice lol.
I just leave the thinking about hitbox to NRS.
It is literally introductory programming. It would be the stupidest thing in the world to make the game visually determine where some should be blocked. The proof that this isn't true is that Liu Kangs b2 went from an overhead to a high with no change in frame data or visuals. Even basic self education would make it apparent the two are completely unrelated.

There are so many highs that look like they should connect with a ducking opponent but the game won't let the hitbox trigger if the opponent is crouching. A high just has a check that the opponent overlaps with the hitbox and isn't crouching. Doesn't matter the hitbox. If they are crouching, it won't register. Done. Again. Just look at LKs b2
 
Dwn 3 into grab is almost guaranteed. I'm sure you can dwn 3 2 or 3 times into that fwd 3 as well. Either that or other characters need there dwn 1 and 3 buffed. Shave a frame & add a frame...
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Been working on what to do after a blocked D1, basically, the poke war. Tested on Geras since he has a 6f D1. After a blocked D1 it’s your turn, but not for long. Scorpion can only reverse D1 or D3 poke after a blocked D1. No other normal or string can hit them if they do D1 on block into another D1. If the do D1 and it hits, you’re forced to block the follow up. Usually they will attempt a jail, which you just have to block. Although, most jail attempts are the same per character. Meaning, that’s either the only jail their character has, or they only one good/only on they use. So, if you know all the jailing starters after being hit by a D1, you can get good at the flawless block timing on the first attack.

Now, after a blocked D1, Scorpion does have options other than counter poke D1/D3. Even against a 6f D1, after a blocked D1, you can walk back out of a second D1 attempt and whiff punish. Of course, this is under the assumption they do D1 into D1. You can also teleport after a blocked D1 and not get hit by a followup. It doesn’t make sense frame wise but it works. No other special move will work, only teleport (and the cancel for Reborn will work as well).

Knowing your options after either getting hit by a D1 or blocking a D1 is a very important thing you need to know. The situation happens a lot since D1’s are so good.

Don’t let people mash D1’s on you and get away with it. Successive D1’s can be counterpoked (worst option), they can be walked back and whiff punished, and they can be reversal teleported. Again, to be clear, this is in the “D1 on block into another D1” situation.

I’ll work on other situations on getting out of pressure close up. This is all I have right now and I’m falling asleep. This weekend gonna finally be able to hit the lab super hard and really help level up myself and the Scorpion community!
 
Been working on what to do after a blocked D1, basically, the poke war. Tested on Geras since he has a 6f D1. After a blocked D1 it’s your turn, but not for long. Scorpion can only reverse D1 or D3 poke after a blocked D1. No other normal or string can hit them if they do D1 on block into another D1. If the do D1 and it hits, you’re forced to block the follow up. Usually they will attempt a jail, which you just have to block. Although, most jail attempts are the same per character. Meaning, that’s either the only jail their character has, or they only one good/only on they use. So, if you know all the jailing starters after being hit by a D1, you can get good at the flawless block timing on the first attack.

Now, after a blocked D1, Scorpion does have options other than counter poke D1/D3. Even against a 6f D1, after a blocked D1, you can walk back out of a second D1 attempt and whiff punish. Of course, this is under the assumption they do D1 into D1. You can also teleport after a blocked D1 and not get hit by a followup. It doesn’t make sense frame wise but it works. No other special move will work, only teleport (and the cancel for Reborn will work as well).

Knowing your options after either getting hit by a D1 or blocking a D1 is a very important thing you need to know. The situation happens a lot since D1’s are so good.

Don’t let people mash D1’s on you and get away with it. Successive D1’s can be counterpoked (worst option), they can be walked back and whiff punished, and they can be reversal teleported. Again, to be clear, this is in the “D1 on block into another D1” situation.

I’ll work on other situations on getting out of pressure close up. This is all I have right now and I’m falling asleep. This weekend gonna finally be able to hit the lab super hard and really help level up myself and the Scorpion community!
I appreciate the hard work. :)
Btw poke war depends on the opponent. If he is a D1 masher and willing to D1 after blocked D1 yes you can poke back and jail into anything you want (e.g. F3 or B1 is cool as it can full combo the masher even on hit - if he respects you can get a throw).

I did not lab the walk back after blocked D1 as my friend mashes D3-D4 as well to beat me after D1 (sequence : D1, D4 - I do it as well sometimes probably lol) so against him the counter poke is working.

When you have the counterpoke respect you can even throw after a blocked D1 but as Scorpion it is really difficult to get.

However if you play against a 9F Mid opponent and if you do the same D1 mashing you can be full combo punished easily.
I usually start blocking after a blocked D1 (if I confirm) but I am a respectful player lol.

I will lab that walk back soon!
 
I labbed walk back against Scorpion, Sub Zero yes it works. But need to do that walk back immediately (if you are prepared to the poke war that will be okay).
Against e.g. Erron Black it is not working (D1 ok but 7F much better range D3 will catch you - I usually use D3 lol for 7F it is a cool move).

In general against better reach D3-D4 of course it does not work but there are exceptions.

It is absolutely worth using it.
It only can back fire if the opponent is not only D1 masher but not confirming into anything but after a D1 starts a 9-11F MID or good reach high which can catch your walk back. I saw that many times. Against them an S1 full combo punish is working but it should be a read! Worst case you eat a D1 - but my friend likes mashing D2 too as on block it is safe and with Shao Kahn it beats my walk back too (yes that was the reason I did not use it lol I remember now).

I am sure I saw it from @NaughtySenpai during our mirror matches when I mashed D1 lol.

I think this anti D1 masher works for other characters as well not just Scorpion specific. Good tool for those who can not get enough respect with their 9F MID.
Even 11F MID is not enough against a masher who has 7F -3 on block D1.
 
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Bar_Bar13

Friendly Neighborhood Spectre
When am I supposed to input the special to cancel from KB F34? The timing feels super weird.
 
When am I supposed to input the special to cancel from KB F34? The timing feels super weird.
Right before the end of the cinematic. I watch the boots sink into the torso for a visual confirmation.
I miss it sometimes too though.
That one's gonna take a while for me to get 100%. I get it most of the time on the hellport cancel, but when they have defensive meter I go for the spear and miss that infuriatingly often.
 
I really hate playing against Scorpion, its such a chore! What do you recommend I try against him? I can blow up his teleport just fine, its just his up close blockstrings (aside from 212) are really safe, and F34 is safe too, and his staggers are INSANE. Also DF4 is impossible to punish of you don’t have a fast advancing move.
212 has a huge punishable gap.
 
Right before the end of the cinematic. I watch the boots sink into the torso for a visual confirmation.
I miss it sometimes too though.
That one's gonna take a while for me to get 100%. I get it most of the time on the hellport cancel, but when they have defensive meter I go for the spear and miss that infuriatingly often.
Input it 3 times will almost guarantee it comes out after crushing blow.