Variations and Counterpicking

[Juggs]

Counter-picking isn't bullshit and doesn't need fixing.

Exactly.

If people would focus more on their bad matchups counterpicking wouldn’t be as big of a problem.

The entire process of winner having to stay with their character is because they already have the advantage by having won the previous game. Whether that means it’s 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, or 2-2. Which means, counterpicking is really only advantageous when it’s now 2-2, or rather, that’s when it’s most advantageous. If it’s 1-0 and they counterpick and win, they’re now locked to that character at 1-1 and now you can counterpick. Then let’s say you win the next match and it’s 2-1 and again they can CP. They do and win now it’s 2-2 and now you have the final decision on who to use for the last match.

So essentially, whoever gets to 2 wins first will always have the advantage. Or if it’s ft2, whoever gets the first win will always have the advantage. So the point is, whenever they can’t counterpick and you win (so first match), you’ll have the advantage for the entire set.

 

[Pterodactyl]

In custom variations I think so but I'm writing about three of them. Your opponent's pick is locked as long as you switch variation only. It makes you think more about your mistakes and stuff you could improve with your character than just picking another one and relying on his tools. So choosing a character which counters your opponents variation would be impossible, he could switch to another one then.

I see posts like this and I realize the majority of TYM has no idea what game design is, or what game balance is.

Apparently they also don’t know the point of standard competitive rules are either. This place is... distressing, man.

 

[aldazo]

I thought counterpicking was born because in the old days when you played SF on the arcade machines, when another guy inserted his coin in and went to select screen, the winner could not change his char. So it was not born as a form of balance, compensation or strategy. It was just an old custom that made its way to this day. So.... after what we saw during the MKX tournament era, I would say lock the char but not the variation for the winner.

As anohter fellow member mentioned it, this issue was topic of discussion here:
https://www.testyourmight.com/threads/can-we-get-a-consensus-on-character-variation-lock-rules.48559/

 

[RonnyRAGE]

Let the pros build there own variations and I might actually watch.

Then release videos of the sonicfox version so online gets 5,000 clone fighters. Aka easy to fight

 

[Vslayer]

- way, way more variations being used at tournaments
- counter-picks being less problematic
- being a character loyalist now has more sense (instead of just using the best variation of a character)
- winners also have the right to speak

I agree with all of this, it would be a really great way to fix counter-picking issues. Maybe limit it to once ot twice in a matchup. I especially agree with the part about being a character loyalist, I tried using Spec Ops but Brawler and Hollywood were always better and there was no use in even learning it (unless you’re SonicFox xD). I want to be able to learn a character 100%, not have to chose between pre-set variations that lock you out of specials and certain strings.

 

[SauceHouston_]

I'll play you on Inj2 rn.

Who plays injustice 2 serious anymore? Lol games dead man let it go. Don’t be a injustice 2 necro

I'm apart of the actual NRS FGC, which isn't on this site anymore. As for what you're saying, what is the approach? It's so obvious to me what's flawed about what he said and I'm not trying to result in a game that ends up castrated and DOA like Injustice 2 was because it's hella degenerate and counterpick heavy. Nobody wants to watch, or play that. I'm not trying to be a jerk here either, but I also fail to see how this guy genuinely wrote up this post and thought it was a good idea for the game.

As far as this ion care what you say to anyone or me. But to say “I’m apart of the actual nrs community which isn’t on this site anymore” is the biggest iron knee post I’ve ever seen because your one of the people who post on 90% of the threads so you are a tym nrs player.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Who plays injustice 2 serious anymore? Lol games dead man let it go. Don’t be a injustice 2 necro



As far as this ion care what you say to anyone or me. But to say “I’m apart of the actual nrs community which isn’t on this site anymore” is the biggest iron knee post I’ve ever seen because your one of the people who post on 90% of the threads so you are a tym nrs player.

I'm not a necro yet, next game isn't out. That's part of the definition lol.

 

[SauceHouston_]

I'm not a necro yet, next game isn't out. That's part of the definition lol.

Touché young cherny

 

[Zed]

Tfw half of this thread is about bashing chernyy and the other half is actually responding to OP.

Truthfully OP that idea would never work, counterpicking is a huge part to fighting games and it is a legitimate strategy. Matchups these days aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. I don't think there was even a single 7-3 in the last 2 games. Mostly 6-4s and 5-5s. Custom variations would take too long to setup and I don't think it's necessarily good for the game competitively, because at that point everyones just going to use a meta loadout and call it a day. NRS games typically only last 2 years anyway, so why try to be experimental. If the game lasts longer the idea could be fleshed out more, but I don't think this game is going to be the one where we break the cycle. I'd love to be wrong but I just don't see it happening.

Chernyy's a dick and always has been, but that's kinda part of his character. Its like his persona. I've played Chernyy offline and he's actually a nice guy. But he's very opinionated and he's going to tell it like he see's it with no bullshit. You kinda gotta respect that. Whether he's "being mean" or not you gotta let the man rock lmao. OP is a big boy and can handle himself.

 

[Sablicious]

Whatever they do with "tournaments" (likely a system that homogenises the game and defeats the purpose of character customisation), they need to allow for a 'free' mode, wherein any and all specials can be used on a single char. variation (*direct ability clashes notwithstanding).

To hell with "balance" -- if it's not for the E-spergs crowd, and it's corralled to either offline or a dedicated online mode, who cares? There is no point of trumpeting "variations" this and "customise the way you want" that, when they end up locking players to two of three templates -- with modicum customisation that is itself stymied by restrictive "slots", and other fun flaying, fallaciously formulated, 'fairness' functions.

Do variations PROPERLY, or do not do them at all. There is no 'try'.

 

[callMEcrazy]

Counter-picking rarely seems like a big deal, not just in MK but any fighting game. Tournaments are mostly played with top tier characters and those very rarely have actual bad matchups.

For instance if you were up 2-0 in a ft3 with Imposter/Ethereal/Sektor in MKXL there was no character that your opponent could really counter you with. Yes some characters could fight them better than others but there were no actual counters that turned the matchup upside down.

Similarly say in SFV S3 if you're up 2-0 with Cammy/Menat/Guile/Akuma there's no character that your opponent can screw you with by counter-picking.

So to sum it up counter-picking is a non-issue.

 

[Vslayer]

Do variations PROPERLY, or do not do them at all. There is no 'try'.

Thank you, Master Yoda.

 

[wsj515]

Chernyy's a dick and always has been, but that's kinda part of his character. Its like his persona. I've played Chernyy offline and he's actually a nice guy. But he's very opinionated and he's going to tell it like he see's it with no bullshit. You kinda gotta respect that. Whether he's "being mean" or not you gotta let the man rock lmao. OP is a big boy and can handle himself.

Bit of a double standard, don't you think? If OP is a big boy, then surely Chernyy isn't so delicate that he needs you to defend him as well. We (I) kinda don't gotta respect anything, the persona is honestly pretty pathetic, during Inj2 all he did was whine, hardly no-nonsense no-bullshit.

 

[NothingPersonal]

Counter-picking is only a problem in a game where really bad match-ups exist. So fix the game.

 

[Rizz091]

Counter picking isn't a problem that needs solving, and this wouldn't solve it anyway, just muddy the waters and over complicate things. It really is fine the way it is.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Tfw half of this thread is about bashing chernyy and the other half is actually responding to OP.

Truthfully OP that idea would never work, counterpicking is a huge part to fighting games and it is a legitimate strategy. Matchups these days aren't nearly as bad as they used to be. I don't think there was even a single 7-3 in the last 2 games. Mostly 6-4s and 5-5s. Custom variations would take too long to setup and I don't think it's necessarily good for the game competitively, because at that point everyones just going to use a meta loadout and call it a day. NRS games typically only last 2 years anyway, so why try to be experimental. If the game lasts longer the idea could be fleshed out more, but I don't think this game is going to be the one where we break the cycle. I'd love to be wrong but I just don't see it happening.

Chernyy's a dick and always has been, but that's kinda part of his character. Its like his persona. I've played Chernyy offline and he's actually a nice guy. But he's very opinionated and he's going to tell it like he see's it with no bullshit. You kinda gotta respect that. Whether he's "being mean" or not you gotta let the man rock lmao. OP is a big boy and can handle himself.

My man.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Bit of a double standard, don't you think? If OP is a big boy, then surely Chernyy isn't so delicate that he needs you to defend him as well. We (I) kinda don't gotta respect anything, the persona is honestly pretty pathetic, during Inj2 all he did was whine, hardly no-nonsense no-bullshit.

Everyone whines. I just do it publicly. You'd be amazed at some of the scrub tastic shit that some of our pros say in their salt. Maybe try having some empathy for players trying to hit the grind and take this seriously yeah?

 

[wsj515]

Everyone whines. I just do it publicly. You'd be amazed at some of the scrub tastic shit that some of our pros say in their salt. Maybe try having some empathy for players trying to hit the grind and take this seriously yeah?

Dude you used to complain about the manta/BA matchup despite it being manta favored, and how you couldn't punish BA's black magic on reaction, when there is no reaction needed to punish for full combo every time. Hard to take someone with that mentality seriously.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Ah my friend, 4 years ago I was much like yourself. Not in the "counterpicking is BS" sense but in the sense that I was fighting vehemently for character lock instead of variation lock, as can be seen in the thread people have posted regarding this discussion but for MKX.

Character lock over variation lock made sense at the time because we were heading into new territory, no one knew how the variation system would play out and it was a chance to fully embrace the new system. Now I honestly don't give a shit, we used variation lock in MKX and it worked out fine in the end so I'm fine with that.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Dude you used to complain about the manta/BA matchup despite it being manta favored, and how you couldn't punish BA's black magic on reaction, when there is no reaction needed to punish for full combo every time. Hard to take someone with that mentality seriously.

The way this community holds onto shit that's a year old or more is so weird.

Also, despite MY OPINION that Manta wins the MU, Gross and Ominous severely disagree and think that not only does Manta lose to BA, he gets destroyed. Typical TYMer not aware of the discourse surrounding a game. Also, I never said that about Black Magic, I did say you can't reaction reversal punish with teleport. It's a 1 frame punish, it has to be done on a read. Once again though, you wouldn't know that obviously. Are you that Black Adam has no true mids guy from month one?

 

[Sablicious]

Counter-picking rarely seems like a big deal, not just in MK but any fighting game. Tournaments are mostly played with top tier characters and those very rarely have actual bad matchups.

I have seen SonicFurry pick Jason in order to get around a bad match-up, then immediately swap back once he won and forced a counter-counter pick by his opponent (*he was initially Error Blargh, suffice it to say).

If counter-picking weren't a "big deal", they would 1) outlaw it in tournament$ (because it literally undermines a given, showcased game's supposed balance), and 2) the term "counter pick" would not even have entered the fighting game community vernacular. To analogise: counter-picking is tantamount to an MMA fighter being 'best at' any and all forms of martial arts, and then swapping in and out of whichever discipline, as their opponents demand -- ridiculous... Just as Ronda Rousey's neurologist!

Face it: people will do whatever they can do in order to win; and the depths to which they will stoop will invariably be exacerbated where the cancerous alloy of money infects proceedings. As such, and accepting that counter-picking chars. undermines the scene, the spirit of competition and the necessity for players to master a given char. -- as well as makes mordant mockery of the ignis fatuus of so-called "balance", for which so much that could otherwise make a game better, is so often sacrificed -- counter-picking will always be a thing. This, unless the practice is either outlawed (in competitive matches) -OR- games are made in such a way as to afford any given character the tools needed to circumvent whatever hurdle opponents present... Something nerfed / half-baked [pseudo] "variations" did not nor will not provide.

 

[spidey300]

imagine complaining about counterpicking. you should always have a main and at least 2 pockets

 

[wsj515]

The way this community holds onto shit that's a year old or more is so weird.

Also, despite MY OPINION that Manta wins the MU, Gross and Ominous severely disagree and think that not only does Manta lose to BA, he gets destroyed. Typical TYMer not aware of the discourse surrounding a game. Also, I never said that about Black Magic, I did say you can't reaction reversal punish with teleport. It's a 1 frame punish, it has to be done on a read. Once again though, you wouldn't know that obviously. Are you that Black Adam has no true mids guy from month one?

We had this discussion with you on the Adam discord lol, its a reactable punish, you just couldn't do it. I have no intention of discussing matchups long dead, I just have a memory that happens to be a bit better than a goldfish. Keep Strawman-ing TYM stereotypes all you want (many of which you pretty much embody) and stay on that high horse that you're part of some NRS FGC illuminati, everyone can see you for you.

Sorry guys, done derailing.

 

[callMEcrazy]

I have seen SonicFurry pick Jason in order to get around a bad match-up, then immediately swap back once he won and forced a counter-counter pick by his opponent (*he was initially Error Blargh, suffice it to say).

If counter-picking weren't a "big deal", they would 1) outlaw it in tournament$ (because it literally undermines a given, showcased game's supposed balance), and 2) the term "counter pick" would not even have entered the fighting game community vernacular. To analogise: counter-picking is tantamount to an MMA fighter being 'best at' any and all forms of martial arts, and then swapping in and out of whichever discipline, as their opponents demand -- ridiculous... Just as Ronda Rousey's neurologist!

Face it: people will do whatever they can do in order to win; and the depths to which they will stoop will invariably be exacerbated where the cancerous alloy of money infects proceedings. As such, and accepting that counter-picking chars. undermines the scene, the spirit of competition and the necessity for players to master a given char. -- as well as makes mordant mockery of the ignis fatuus of so-called "balance", for which so much that could otherwise make a game better, is so often sacrificed -- counter-picking will always be a thing. This, unless the practice is either outlawed (in competitive matches) -OR- games are made in such a way as to afford any given character the tools needed to circumvent whatever hurdle opponents present... Something nerfed / half-baked [pseudo] "variations" did not nor will not provide.

I remember that match. Fox picked Jason to defeat Dragon's Imposter Shinnok if I recall correctly.

I said it happens rarely, not that it doesn't exist. Games of years past were perhaps more matchup-heavy where counter-picking could play a significant role. These days you'd rarely hear it mentioned during a tournament.

Most fighting game players also specialize on just one or two characters so it's not as simple as just picking up a hard counter and making it work. If you don't play very well with a character it doesn't matter if that character counters your opponent's character. You just won't beat him.

So I stand by what I said earlier. Counter-picking is no big deal.

 

[Invincible Salads]

so like, for tourneys, are we gonna have to set aside time now before the set begins so players can build they're preferred variations? because if so this is gonna make sets take a lot longer.