A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

[Undergroundepict]

Unbelievable lol. Why is that only coming up now, after he's had to make his case for like ten pages, and now it's "yeah actually our own team of specialists couldnt agreed on this number so we just decided to tell everyone it's a 6-4"? Lmao just like the Flash Cold match up that was actually a losing match up but the team couldn't agree on a number so it got written up as a 5-5? That's two for two now haha, how many more numbers on that chart are just random shit thrown at a dartboard? The more you guys get pressed for answers the worse it gets lol

Could this thread be any less professional? keep the laughs coming guys

Wut? We are not in any disagreement on the MU within the council. The disagreement I am referring to concerns players within the Injustice 2 community at large.

We get it, bruh. You don't like our tier list. That's fine. You made your position clear 9 pages or so ago. Why you continue to invest so much thought and energy into something you clearly have absolutely no regard for anyways is beyond me.

The purpose of the list is to serve as a resource. Nowhere have we claimed that it is without flaws (in fact, we have repeatedly reiterated that it continues to be a work in progress), and nowhere have any of us claimed that our MU numbers are the final and authoritative stance that all members of the community must conform to. There are MU's in this game that will always remain contentious. At a certain point, we just have to agree to disagree. It's OK at at a certain point simply disagree, particularly if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation.

 

[Undergroundepict]

But I don't really think a reasonable case can actually be made for the 6-4, hence the copout. Like I said, even if you upplayed Adam's mid screen advantage (where again, Superman goes pretty much toe-to-toe) even more than you kinda were, I still think that its completely offset by Superman's domination in the corner.

Fair enough you don't even think a reasonable case can be made, but understand that your opinion on the MU is therefore at odds with the vast majority of individuals who have experience in the matchup, where even those who agree that it is 5-5 can at least see some validity to the argument that the MU is 6-4, even if they ultimately disagree.

In fact, I would say that engaging in a debate where you don't believe in even the possibility that a reasonable case can be made by the other side is not very conducive towards a positive or constructive outcome, unless you are equiped with overwhelming evidence that the other side's argument is fallacious or absurd. There is no "killshot" in the Superman-Adam MU debate. It ultimately comes down to the degree to which either side sees certain factors as significant, which is ultimately prone to subjectivity and bias no matter how objective one attempts to be.

 

[wsj515]

Fair enough you don't even think a reasonable case can be made, but understand that your opinion on the MU is therefore at odds with the vast majority of individuals who have experience in the matchup, where even those who agree that it is 5-5 can at least see some validity to the argument that the MU is 6-4, even if they ultimately disagree.

In fact, I would say that engaging in a debate where you don't believe in even the possibility that a reasonable case can be made by the other side is not very conducive towards a positive or constructive outcome, unless you are equiped with overwhelming evidence that the other side's argument is fallacious or absurd. There is no "killshot" in the Superman-Adam MU debate. It ultimately comes down to the degree to which either side sees certain factors as significant, which is ultimately prone to subjectivity and bias no matter how objective one attempts to be.

As far as I can tell, my opinion is only at odds with you and the Adam rep, who was clearly MIA in a bunch of other MUs already. Everyone who has commented on the matchup in this thread has agreed with me. I can see and have pointed out that there are advantageous tools/areas of the matchup for Adam, but I do not see validity in the argument that those advantages outweigh superman's advantages, making it a 6-4.

I engaged in this discussion because I don't believe the matchup could possibly be 6-4, and was curious as to what people had to say. I've gone back and forth with people, whereas you simply say "It ultimately comes down to the degree to which either side sees certain factors as significant," which is definitely not conducive to a positive or constructive outcome, especially when you are touting this strive for the greater good of the chart as a resource. I do not think that many aspects of this matchup are subjective, but if they/MUs in general are, then whats the point of even making a chart?

I've been trying to be polite but I do find your arguments a bit fallacious and absurd. Subjectivity is impossible to completely avoid, but there is a certain range things can't go past, which is why people didn't pay attention to FredMarvel. You can't just decide that Superman's advantages mean less to the matchup than Adam's, particularly considering so many of your arguments have revolved around Superman having to adapt his play style even just a little bit. It's like saying that Adam loses to all female characters just because f12 whiffs when they crouch, and when someone brings up all the reasons why Ivy loses, you then go "well different people weigh different parts of the matchup more or less significantly, so we'll just have to agree to disagree."

 

[DTruth]

As far as I can tell, my opinion is only at odds with you and the Adam rep, who was clearly MIA in a bunch of other MUs already. Everyone who has commented on the matchup in this thread has agreed with me. I can see and have pointed out that there are advantageous tools/areas of the matchup for Adam, but I do not see validity in the argument that those advantages outweigh superman's advantages, making it a 6-4.

I engaged in this discussion because I don't believe the matchup could possibly be 6-4, and was curious as to what people had to say. I've gone back and forth with people, whereas you simply say "It ultimately comes down to the degree to which either side sees certain factors as significant," which is definitely not conducive to a positive or constructive outcome, especially when you are touting this strive for the greater good of the chart as a resource. I do not think that many aspects of this matchup are subjective, but if they/MUs in general are, then whats the point of even making a chart?

I've been trying to be polite but I do find your arguments a bit fallacious and absurd. Subjectivity is impossible to completely avoid, but there is a certain range things can't go past, which is why people didn't pay attention to FredMarvel. You can't just decide that Superman's advantages mean less to the matchup than Adam's, particularly considering so many of your arguments have revolved around Superman having to adapt his play style even just a little bit. It's like saying that Adam loses to all female characters just because f12 whiffs when they crouch, and when someone brings up all the reasons why Ivy loses, you then go "well different people weigh different parts of the matchup more or less significantly, so we'll just have to agree to disagree."

Seriously at this point drop it. I agree with your assessment of the matchup but your putting to much energy in this.

Make your own chart, live with it and stop giving this attention if you disagree with the practice of this matchup chart so much.

 

[Cursa]

Wonder Woman: 3-7
If you disagree with any of the numbers please tell me your opinion on the MU# and write a full match up break down to explain it. Otherwise I can't be convinced.

Ya had me going at the start for a bit there, I'm not gonna lie

 

[Cursa]

This thread seemed to have good intentions but was... unorganized. Maybe not the right word but it's close.

There's 41 characters in Injustice 2. That means there is, and correct me if I am wrong, 820 matchups in the game; 40 matchups per character with 41 characters in the game. Not even including the tier list which is based upon matchups.

We've been talking about ONE matchup and it took up 1 1/2 pages basically, maybe a little less. And it's still not decided on. Matchup discussion is almost always just heads clashing, and this is the biggest matchup discussion thread the moment.

I think the last important point to take away is that MU's aren't the be all and end all. If you're back and forth about whether a MU is 6-4 or 5-5 then it probably means you just both play it differently, and not that one is wrong. A lot of MU's in IJ2 could be debated to the end of time, particularly due to the emphasis on neutral play and that set-play factor is limited to very few characters or to specific MU's

 

[Ram]

There's 41 characters in Injustice 2. That means there is, and correct me if I am wrong, 820 matchups in the game.

ftfy

 

[Braindead]

Ya had me going at the start for a bit there, I'm not gonna lie

Wowo 100% loses the mirror.

 

[Cursa]

ftfy

It's not 41*40? I don't know I am still waking up to the start of my 12 hour shift so idk

 

[Braindead]

It's not 41*40? I don't know I am still waking up to the start of my 12 hour shift so idk

X vs Y is the same as Y vs X so you have to divide your number by 2 so you don't count the same MU twice

 

[God Confirm]

I talked to one of the Batman reps and the reasons he gave for Batman beating Hellboy were that HB has no real lows so Bats can threaten parry in gaps.

WOW loool

Why you continue to invest so much thought and energy into something you clearly have absolutely no regard for anyways is beyond me.

takes minimal energy to be here lol and the power of thought is not a difficult one for most people, possibly yourself excluded. I've already said why I've stuck around - you guys were snappy little jackasses to me when I asked a question, so at this point its too funny watching this whole thing collapse on itself and the absurd OS's you guys try use. Why would I leave? This thread just keeps getting better and better, also reading the actual match up discussion that goes on here is quite good, not from contributors but from people that actually understand the game, and that plus the laughs you guys provide is more than worth sticking around for. This is my favorite thread in quite a while

 

[God Confirm]

its also funny watching the same 2-3 other members of "the council" come in and like each others garbage everytime for emotional support

 

[Cursa]

X vs Y is the same as Y vs X so you have to divide your number by 2 so you don't count the same MU twice

Indeed, makes sense, only thought about mirrors when I was counting.

41*20. Only 820

 

[Undergroundepict]

This thread seemed to have good intentions but was... unorganized. Maybe not the right word but it's close.

There's 41 characters in Injustice 2. That means there is, and correct me if I am wrong, 1640 matchups in the game; 40 matchups per character with 41 characters in the game. Not even including the tier list which is based upon matchups.

We've been talking about ONE matchup and it took up 1 1/2 pages basically, maybe a little less. And it's still not decided on. Matchup discussion is almost always just heads clashing, and this is the biggest matchup discussion thread the moment.

I think the last important point to take away is that MU's aren't the be all and end all. If you're back and forth about whether a MU is 6-4 or 5-5 then it probably means you just both play it differently, and not that one is wrong. A lot of MU's in IJ2 could be debated to the end of time, particularly due to the emphasis on neutral play and that set-play factor is limited to very few characters or to specific MU's

This is precisely the point I was attempting to make.

The Superman-Adam MU is the epitome of an MU that can be debated to the end of time. And it has been.

As far as I can tell, my opinion is only at odds with you and the Adam rep, who was clearly MIA in a bunch of other MUs already. Everyone who has commented on the matchup in this thread has agreed with me. I can see and have pointed out that there are advantageous tools/areas of the matchup for Adam, but I do not see validity in the argument that those advantages outweigh superman's advantages, making it a 6-4.

I engaged in this discussion because I don't believe the matchup could possibly be 6-4, and was curious as to what people had to say. I've gone back and forth with people, whereas you simply say "It ultimately comes down to the degree to which either side sees certain factors as significant," which is definitely not conducive to a positive or constructive outcome, especially when you are touting this strive for the greater good of the chart as a resource. I do not think that many aspects of this matchup are subjective, but if they/MUs in general are, then whats the point of even making a chart?

I've been trying to be polite but I do find your arguments a bit fallacious and absurd. Subjectivity is impossible to completely avoid, but there is a certain range things can't go past, which is why people didn't pay attention to FredMarvel. You can't just decide that Superman's advantages mean less to the matchup than Adam's, particularly considering so many of your arguments have revolved around Superman having to adapt his play style even just a little bit. It's like saying that Adam loses to all female characters just because f12 whiffs when they crouch, and when someone brings up all the reasons why Ivy loses, you then go "well different people weigh different parts of the matchup more or less significantly, so we'll just have to agree to disagree."

I've come across an abundance of breakdowns and MU charts where the Adam-Supes MU was mentioned or discussed in detail, and engaged in more discussions than I can possibly count with credible Adam/Supes players over the months since the game has been out, and the vast majority tend to assert that the MU is either 5-5 or 6-4 Adam's favor, with due consideration given to the other side. I find it very hard to believe that I am the only person you have ever heard claim the MU is 6-4 in Adam's favor.

Seeing a degree of validity in an argument doesn't mean that you agree with its conclusion. You can both accept certain aspects of the argument as valid while rejecting other aspects as faulty or invalid.

Claiming that there is absolutely no way a reasonable argument can possibly exist for a particular stance is an extremely bold statement that indicates a total unwillingness to truly hear their argument out or consider the other side's perspective. Even if you strongly disagree with a particular stance upon hearing it initially, you should at least entertain the possibility that they may have an argument that can sway your opinion in one way or another.

IMO, there is a degree of subjectivity inherent to all MU discussion, but the degree to which that subjectivity actually sways the number assigned to a particular matchup ultimately comes down to just how close that MU is to the border between 5-5 and 6-4, with Adam-Supes sitting right on top of it. Which is why the two of us have thus far stated a lot of facts about the MU, with many good points on both sides, with none of them being strong enough to change either of our minds one way or the other. Continuing the line of reasoning we started on is unlikely to change oneanother's mind either, and will ultimately serve to clutter the thread.

 

[Undergroundepict]

WOW loool


takes minimal energy to be here lol and the power of thought is not a difficult one for most people, possibly yourself excluded. I've already said why I've stuck around - you guys were snappy little jackasses to me when I asked a question, so at this point its too funny watching this whole thing collapse on itself and the absurd OS's you guys try use. Why would I leave? This thread just keeps getting better and better, also reading the actual match up discussion that goes on here is quite good, not from contributors but from people that actually understand the game, and that plus the laughs you guys provide is more than worth sticking around for. This is my favorite thread in quite a while

Snappy little jackasses? I recall multiple attempts to address your concerns and fulfill your requests, while providing ample explainations when certain requests either couldn't be fulfilled or required compromises on your end in order to fulfill them. We genuinely tried to reach out to you.

I don't think that resorting to trolling or shitposting is an appropriate response to what was either a breakdown in communication or a momentary expression of frustration. There are far less hostile means of settling past disagreements or minor quibbles one may have had, that also confer the benefit of spreading less negativity and enmity around.

 

[Cursa]

This is precisely the point I was attempting to make.

The Superman-Adam MU is the epitome of an MU that can be debated to the end of time. And it has been.

The point I am making is that even the discussion of Black Adam v Superman can't be agreed upon, and there is 819 other matchups in the game.

Character communities have spent a year working on matchups throughout the game's life and still haven't come to the conclusion on a lot of matchups, where there are often many more people working on it than the sometimes one person who is the the character council for a character (Yes I know there is sometimes more)

I don't want to go to in depth into it, but, basically, I don't think this thread was ready for the light of day. The amount of work this thread requires to be taken truly seriously is actually kind of ridiculous.

 

[God Confirm]

Snappy little jackasses? I recall multiple attempts to address your concerns and fulfill your requests, while providing ample explainations when certain requests either couldn't be fulfilled or required compromises on your end in order to fulfill them. We genuinely tried to reach out to you.

Lol, no, you absolutely, 100% did not do any of that even remotely, and literally everyone to weigh in not on your character council to weigh in has disagreed with you on this, and even some people on your own council have. On top of this, you and a couple of others have made such an embarrassment of yourselves in here that some people FROM YOUR OWN COUNCIL have gone out of their way to PM or contract me to distance themselves from your BS.

Now you are trying to do this pseudo-intellectual bs where you act like a victim of trolling, after trying to blow me up and responding with derision in response to me asking a genuine question about a statement you guys are put forth. Everyone can see through it. Even your own council. Next time save the posting for people who actually care about answering questions because the way you've handled it has disappointed even them

 

[Undergroundepict]

The point I am making is that even the discussion of Black Adam v Superman can't be agreed upon, and there is 819 other matchups in the game.

Character communities have spent a year working on matchups throughout the game's life and still haven't come to the conclusion on a lot of matchups, where there are often many more people working on it than the sometimes one person who is the the character council for a character (Yes I know there is sometimes more)

I don't want to go to in depth into it, but, basically, I don't think this thread was ready for the light of day. The amount of work this thread requires to be taken truly seriously is actually kind of ridiculous.

These are facts.

And no, this thread was not ready for the light of day. That said, we have had absolutely no issues being able to communicate our perspective on Discord or any of the other places we posted it. Literally all of the top level, and a vast majority of high level players abandoned this sinking ship as well.

Not that everyone here is all bad, necessarily. I've always had a fairly deep level of respect for the posts you have made in partivlcular, going all the way back to discussions in the Bane and Superman subforums.

 

[God Confirm]

These are facts.

And no, this thread was not ready for the light of day. That said, we have had absolutely no issues being able to communicate our perspective on Discord or any of the other places we posted it. Literally all of the top level, and a vast majority of high level players abandoned this sinking ship as well.

That's excellent to hear, in that case could I please get a breakdown of why you guys put Manta as going 4-6 vs Flash? Thats one that jumped out to me, especially on a tier list that recognizes Flash loses to AM, WoWo, CW and Fate. Might be that I just don't understand the match up very well, so I'll gladly take one of these easy explanations you guys have no issue communicating.

Not that everyone here is all bad, necessarily. I've always had a fairly deep level of respect for the posts you have made in partivlcular, going all the way back to discussions in the Bane and Superman subforums.

agreed, its not everyone at all, far as I can tell it's really just been you, Insomniac, WetDoba and AndyPandy who caused this thread to fail so hard, most the other reps were just happy to you know, answer easy questions about their statements on a match up. Probably why they got pissed at you and called this thread a sinking ship.

 

[Undergroundepict]

That's excellent to hear, in that case could I please get a breakdown of why you guys put Manta as going 4-6 vs Flash? Thats one that jumped out to me, especially on a tier list that recognizes Flash loses to AM, WoWo, CW and Fate. Might be that I just don't understand the match up very well, so I'll gladly take one of these easy explanations you guys have no issue communicating.

You aren't going to like this, but you're going to have to ask Chernny.

Probably why they got pissed at you and called this thread a sinking ship.

Wtf are you even talking about?

I'm literally done, lol.

 

[Sesal Snow]

I talked to one of the Batman reps and the reasons he gave for Batman beating Hellboy were that HB has no real lows so Bats can threaten parry in gaps. Bats can D2 or jump back 1 to try to defend against leap. Grounded footsies is won by Bats with trait. HB can zone some, but can't keep Bats out long. Bats can also bait HB AAs with glide and divekick.

These reasons all pretty high risk with varying reward for Bats. Parry is high risk low reward. It can set up some mind games later, but that's entirely read based and if HB is just patient he'll punish for big damage, favorable screen placement, and trait usage. HBs leap and cancels are too quick to consistently D2 or jump back 1 on reaction. Jump back 1 won't get Bats much. D2 can lead to combo and reset but is punishable in HBs favor. Bats glide and divekick are punishable but high reward for Bats if successful. Also HB does have a low starter I believe.

I think the match-up is even and the Batman rep I talked to agreed with me. Bats can have success when he gets in, but HB has a safe invincible wake-up and can get out with leap quickly and go back to this game of zoning, leap, and trait, which Bats has to navigate to get back in.

I'd be interested in hearing one of the Hellboy reps perspective, or even @Sesal Snow. I could certainty be swayed to believe Bats beats HB, but not for the reasons I was given.

Ok so It has been awhile since I have posted much and since I have consistently played because I am busy irl.
From what I have been playing the mu feels even to me.

Now first of all Hellboy doe's have a low his b1 however it does not lead to a combo. Most of the time Hellboy's will use the full b1 string for a safe string on block I think its like -2-3 or something can't remember. Other options are to do b12 into leap for the cross up setups etc. He can also do b1 bounce cancel into f3 for the low overhead mix but this is extremely react-able.
Now with leap I do believe it can be reacted to at full and mid screen but up close I feel that's where it gets tricky because up close he will be cancelling into leap or into the + charge or maybe staggering a string etc. Now from my xp playing Hellboy and against him most people will react to the initial dash in the leap that helps them ant air Hellboy especially when they see it cancelled off a string. Now Hellboy's normally bait this by doing a mid range leap over the opponent into a raw Fist of doom cancel instead of the air dash cancel to bait out a button press and whiff punish the opponent trying to anti air. So from my xp when it comes to close range with leap cancels its all about reading what you think your opponent is going to do and that's for both of the players.
But leap can be reacted to full screen for sure. Its also worth mentioning that Hellboy can make a read against a projectile full screen for a punish.

As for Hellboy's wake up it can actually be stuffed pretty consistent with many string/specials even against players that have no experience I have been d1'ed out of my wakeup many many times and against a experienced player I have even been full combo-ed.

The zoning game feels pretty even to me as well if bats gets his trait out then of course he has an advantage to get in or zone some more etc but this is also a good opportunity for Hellboy to trait up with armour to counter this causing a stale mate.

So this is kind of my synopsis I think that the mu is even they both hit hard and have nice setups for the other to deal with their zoning feels even and both their wakeups have flaws being either horrible frames or it can be stuffed.
I hope that this shed's some light and that I touched on each option (Kinda wrote this up really quick) as I said have not played nearly as much as I did in the past I do plan on coming back to the game though.
One thing I will say is if you really want a detailed opinion I would ask @SylverRye as he is a Batman and Hellboy player who is in the competitive scene and has a crap ton experience than a filthy casual like me.

 

[Protagonist_1]

Hello, Protagonist_1 here stopping b,y long post incoming,

@Insomniac FGC @Marinjuana

I usually dislike matchup number threads ( @Ram knows me too well on this) but I do appreciate the effort that went into this.

Just as @Cursa said, this is a good approach, as you had players discussing these matchups and had input from multiple sources. However, when it comes to debating matchup numbers you're going to need a large body, organized, and source of evidence and data that players can refer to. Doing this takes a ton of time, time that I feel many would not be willing to invest in, which is understandable. But I feel matchup discussion in a public forum is the best approach

I also dislike discord considering I love TYM and feel matchup discussion should primarily occur here on the forums. I know they can be...vile...at times but I think as a community it helps better.

Not to prop fish, but here's an example of a detailed thread I did regarding the Superman vs. Cyborg matchup:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/matchup-discussion-cyborg-vs-superman-living-guide.65057/

Also Cyborg vs. Dr. Fate:
https://testyourmight.com/threads/matchup-discussion-cyborg-vs-dr-fate-living-guide.64698/

As you can see, there's even sections a player can refer too regarding specific aspects of the matchup, hard data such as health, damage per projectile, and hopefully in the future I'll include bnb damage as well. If this could be done for each matchup by each representative, or even multiple representative of the character (on TYM I might add), I don't think there would have been as much fuss as there is going right now regarding the numbers.

For example, if I was a Grodd representative and I wanted to respond to @wsj515 , they could point out scenarios were Grodd's counterpoke/cancel game is better than Black Adam (I know this because Cyborg's d1 pushes BA so that his d1 whiffs) with actual video evidence, damage, and even common scenarios you would see in the matchup. But again, a lot of these things just scratch the surface when it comes to a matchup.

Again though, this takes time to do, but if you're going to make matchup number charts providing hard data is important to support your argument. I think the stronger the evidence, the better it is to back up your numbers, and the more willing players would be able to agree or contribute to matchup discussion.

It would also benefit the community considering some players may struggle in a matchup and having a detailed analysis allows players to find gameplay strategies to deal with such matchups.

-Protagonist_1

 

[Marinjuana]

@Protagonist_1 Always love the posts Protag but just to say, I didn't have any involvement with the tier list, I just made the thread

 

[DDutchguy]

Raiden: 5-5

I think WW-Raiden is a 6-4 for Wonder Woman due to her range advantage and because she can shut him down pretty harshly in the corner.

 

[jcbowie]

I think WW-Raiden is a 6-4 for Wonder Woman due to her range advantage and because she can shut him down pretty harshly in the corner.

Pretty sure the list was a meme. Although it's fair enough, I'm having a bit of a tough time interpreting people's tones on this thread now...