[Matchup Discussion] Cyborg vs. Supeman(Last edit: 9/15/2017) The goal of this thread is to not just discuss the matchup, but to go highly in detail of nearly all possible scenarios when going against Superman and all the options against each. This thread is meant so that any Cyborg player will have a general gameplan to go through the match, so that making the right decisions whether in neutral, or under pressure, can be made. I hope that matchup threads like these will be used in other character forums to provide better detail for future matchup discussion. Keep in mind, this is not set and stone. With patches, and further reevalutation from other Cyborg players and Superman players, this will be updated. I plan to do this for every character in the game for Cyborg, and we as a Cyborg community should go in depth for all options to have the best chance at winning. #TEAMBOOYAH BUTTON NOTATION 1 = square, 2=triangle, 3=X, 4=circle, XBOX 1=X 2=Y 3=A 4=B UNDERSTANTING RANGE SYSTEM: Range 0: (point blank range) Range 1: (area from one backdash away) Range 2: (area from two backdashes way) Range 3: (area from three backdashes away) Range 4: (area from four backdashes away) Range 5: (area from five backdashes away) Range 6: (Full screen, will be regarded as such) The range system is essential to know what you as a Cyborg player should be doing or to look out for at each range of the matchup. This is to break down the matchup easier and to evaluate each option. GENERAL GAMEPLAN SUMMARY [Subject to change]: Superman is a hybrid character with good pressure (f2, f23 trait are plus on block and standing 3 trait is neutral), and zoning options as well. The goal of this matchup is to play the midscreen game, using IAFB, TA, trait and MB fireballs to counter Superman’s long startup on his lazer options. By doing this, Cyborg will have meter available for clash, as well as pushblock when pressured under trait. Avoid being put into the corner at all cost, and do whatever you can to get out to maintain midscreen position. Superman’s pressure in the corner oppresses most of Cyborg’s options, so use MB roll (you can cancel NB during a string to roll out), pushblock, or grapple to get out the corner (unless Supes has trait, then grapple is not an option). Video Reference: NORMALS (All notes consist at range 0) Standing 1 [9 frame startup/-1 on block/+21on hit/ high] IF HIT: Any mid or low under 28 frames is guranteed, including throw IF BLOCKED: D1 check or just block. Superman's d1 will trade with Cyborg's d1 in the followup, however Superman will now be +2 (Cyborg's d1 is +10 while Superman's d1 is +12). If Cyborg decides to instead block the follow up d1, superman is now -3, allowing Cyborg to follow up with d1, 23, and reversal throw. Standing 2 [10 frame startup/-6 on block/+14 on hit/ mid] IF HIT: Any mid or low attack 21 frames or under is guaranteed IF BLOCKED: Can check with any mid or low attack 12 frames or faster. Thus can check with d1, d2, 23, b123, and reversal grab. Standing 3 [10 frame startup/-1 on block/KND on hit/ mid] IF HIT: Delay wakeup to avoid meaty heat zap or heat lasers IF BLOCKED: Can check with a d1, but will trade with Superman's 6 frame d1. Superman will then be +2 (Superman's d1 is +12 while Cyborg is +10). OTHER: You can choose to block the next follow up. For example if superman follows with d1 and Cyborg blocks it, he's at -3, allowing you to counterpoke. OTHER: Knocks opponent back to range 2-3 on hit. D1 [6 frame startup/-3 on block/+12 on hit/ mid] IF HIT: Any mid or low faster than 19 frames is guaranteed by Superman IF BLOCKED: Any mid or low by Cyborg faster than 9 frames is guaranteed. Thus check with a d1, d2 or standing 3. Cyborg can also walk back causing another d1 follow up to whiff which can be punished on a read. OTHER: Any d1 link into special by Superman (except rising grab) can be interrupted with 12b2 PF OTHER: If Cyborg pokes with d1 and walks back, Superman's d1 has such short range that it will whiff. This opens up counterpoking and shimmy options shown in the video below: D2 [9 frame startup/-10 on block/launches on hit/ mid] IF HIT: Launches for a full combo. Air tech if near death, or clash depending on the scenario IF BLOCKED: Full combo punishable. Can punish with 12b2 PF, 2 PF, d1 PF, or even d2 OTHER: Any special link from d2 (except rising grab) can be punished with 12b2 PF. With flying punch, 11 into PF is more consistent since 12b2 doesn't land as consistently. D3 [12 frame startup/-10 on block/HKD on hit/ low] IF HIT: Hard knockdown. Cannot tech roll. Look out for common Superman oki options IF BLOCKED: Can punish with d1 PF or standing 2 PF. Although d2 is 7 frames, it will not reach OTHER: Punishing d3 can be tricky do to the amount of block stun. You have to wait for Superman's hand to retrieve back, otherwise the game will eat your input and Cyborg will do nothing. F1 [N/A] F2 [8 frame startup/-6 on block/-3 on hit/ mid] RANGE: It reaches further than range 1. Thus you must be about range 1.5 to whiff punish. IF HIT: Unless cancelled into trait, neutral jump or continue to counterpoke. The reason why is if your hit by f2 then they'll combo you...fine. But if they try anything cheeky (f2 into grab) then you have an option for it. IF BLOCKED: Counterpoke with d1. All links into his specials jail (except heat zap), and thus you won't get counterhit. Be weary of f2 bounce cancel which can blow this up. **OTHER [TRAIT]: If Superman cancels into trait after f2, he is +3! Unless you read a grab, you must respect all follow up options. Backdashing is not an option, since the "3" portion of follow up f23 will tag Cyborg. If you read a grab after trait cancel, neutral jump and punish, not worth the risk of being shimmied by teching considering you'll eat the full combo anyway. (Needs further testing, I've been able to interrupt f2 trait into f2 in practice mode). F3 [30 frame startup/+7 on block/launhes on hit/ overhead] IF HIT: You eat a combo IF BLOCKED: Must respect the follow up f2. Backdashing is not an option, considering f2 will whiff but the "3" portion of f23 will still hit. Best to walk back to avoid walk forward grab and the b1 option (low) by Super. OTHER: F3 into j2 is not guaranteed. Anti-air him out of it. Can be mixed with divebomb, but it's a huge risk and that layer of yomi is a bit too deep in the matchup. B1 [20 frame startup/-10 on block/+13 on hit/ low] GENERAL INFO: Supes primary low starter IF HIT: Can be linked into his specials and is a combo starter. If no follow up, any mid or low by Super that is 20 frames or less is guranteed. IF BLOCKED: Can punish with 12b2 EX PF, d1 PF, 2 PF, 23, etc. Standing 2 punish requires strict timing OTHER [SPECIAL LINKS]: All specials (except rising grab) can be interrupted with 12b2 PF. Flying punch can be interrupted with 11 into EX PF or standing 2 PF since 12 puts Superman into a juggle state causing the combo to be dropped. B2 [7 frame startup/-19 on block/HKD on hit/ mid] DESCRIPTION: A blockable command grab that is extremely fast RANGE: Reaches at range 1 IF HIT: Leads to a HKD IF BLOCKED: Full combo punishable with 12b2 EX PF, reversal PF, d1 PF Standing 2 PF, Standing 3 PF, f2, b2, etc. OTHER [punishent]: If done at max range, Cyborg's d1, standing 3, standing 2 will whiff. You can still punish with f2, reversal PF, and b2 (strict timing). B3 [29 frame startup/+5 on block/wall bounce on hit/ mid] RANGE: Reaches at range 1, whiffs at range 2 IF HIT: Get combed IF BLOCKED: Can backdash or grapple to avoid guaranteed f23. OTHER: Any followup jump in attacks by Supes are not guaranteed and can be anti-aired Df+3 [16 frame startup/-24 on block/KND on hit/low] DESCRIPTION: Superman takes a low lung, leading to a knockdown (can be tech rolled) RANGE: Furthest reaching normal, reaches as far as range 2 for Cyborg IF HIT: Be aware of Superman's ski options IF BLOCKED: Full combo punishable with d1 PF, PF Standing 2 PF, 12b2 PF, b2, Standing 3, f2, b123, etc STRINGS: 1*1 [+15 on hit/ 0 on block/ mid] IF HIT: Must respect all mids and lows (and throws) 22 frames or less. IF BLOCKED: Check with d1. From what I tested, if your crouch blocking Cyborg's d1 comes out before Super's d1, despite Superman having the faster d1 in the neutral situation. This may because Superman is in a standing state, thus taking an extra frame to squat (???) OTHER: Cyborg can punish the gap with super OTHER: Commonly done after MB ice breathe after a combo. Look for grab in this scenario and punish with a neutral jump attack 1*11 [-1 on hit/-7 on block/ mid] IF HIT: Best to block the next followup. Can counterpoke with d1, but will trade with Superman's d1 (6 frames). Thus, superman is +12, while Cyborg is +10 (overall Superman is +2). IF BLOCKED: Can be punished with 12b2 PF OTHER: If Cyborg has super, he can punish the gap. 1*1*2 [HKD on hit/-9 on block/ overhead] IF HIT: Hark knockdown. Be ready for any oki options IF BLOCKED: Despite being -9, the pushblock on this string mid screen makes it safe. Can follow up with f22 for plus frames. F22 can be punished by a backdash by Supes. Backdash can be countered with reversal Sonic Disruptor to catch the backdash OTHER: Cyborg can punish both the 1*1 gap and 1*2 gap with super. 22 [+8 on hit/-3 on block/ mid] IF HIT: IF BLOCKED: OTHER: 223 [KND on hit/-4 on block/ overhead] IF HIT: It is techrollable, be sure if your mix it up with delayed getup (short and long) as well as with tech roll. Look out for common oki scenarios. IF BLOCKED: Can follow up with any mid or low attack under 10 frames. Follow up with 23, reversal grab, or check with d1. OTHER: The throw reversal timing is tricky, you must input it as the final arm of the 223 swings down. b21 [HKD on hit/doesn't come out on block] IF HIT: Superman's dash in is NOT guaranteed. It can be checked with techno tackle, nova blast, up nova blast, and wakeup PF. IF HIT #2: Instant air dash followup by Supes avoids all of these options except up NB, so it's best as Cyborg to do wakeup EX up NB to cover all your options. b23 [HKD on hit/doesn't come on block/reverses position] IF HIT: Delay getup or backdash. This move puts Superman within range 1, allowing a meaty f23 to reach. IF HIT #2: Superman cannot grab at this range unless he walks forward. If you see supes walking forward, backdash. Teching is risky considering it can be countered with a meaty f23 f2d1 [KND on hit/X-8 on block/ low] IF HIT: Use delayed getup, or tech roll into backdash. Superman is guaranteed one free dash, and even with tech rolling, can stuff all of Cyborg's wakeup options excluding techno tackle. IF HIT: Another reason to use delayed getup is that a follow up Instant air dash by Supes beats all of Cyborgs wakeup options** IF BLOCKED: Can be punish with 12b2 PF, d1 PF, d2 (launcher and can reverse positions with d2 NB/SD cancel into forward dash) or can challenge with reversal throw IF BLOCKED (special cancel): All special cancels excluding rising grab are full combo punishable with 12b2 PF or even d1 PF. For flying punch, you can do 11 into PF since 12b2 is inconsistent f2d13 [HKD on hit/doesn't come out on block] IF HIT: Delay get up. Superman is guaranteed a free dash in. Wakeup backdash will be stuffed as well as any other wakeup that is not techno tackle. Also, if Superman IAD, he gets an ambiguous cross up setup. f23 [launcher on hit/-2 on block/ mid] DESCRIPTION: Champion of the Oppressed is a string that reaches as far as range 2. The last part of the string has a huge hitbox and is very active, so be sure to have a good distance before whiff punishing IF HIT: Get comboed IF BLOCKED: Counterpoke with d1 if no other follow up. D1 will beat any poke option. Also, all his specials except heat vision and heat zap jail, thus even if you press d1 you won't be counterhit. OTHER: Superman can trait cancel after f23 leaving him +2 vs. normals. If he does this, backdash. You'll avoid the next f2 and block the following 3 of f23. Cyborg's backdash can be countered by Superman by doing low scoop after trait cancel or superman punch, but Supes is taking a huge risk. SPECIALS Heat Vision [27 frame startup/-28 on block/knockdown on hit/mid] IF HIT: Delay getup (short/long), and mix up with tech roll.. This is to avoid meaty heat zap and or MB heat vision IF BLOCKED: Fully combo punishable MB Heat Vision [2 frame startup/+11 on block/KND on hit/overhead] IF HIT: Either tech roll to get up quickly or delayed getup. Regular wakeup risks eating meaty followup lasers IF BLOCKED: Although +11, Cyborg is pushed back to range 1-2, and any follow up attack will whiff (also applies to the corner). Walk back and wait for either a dash in (which can be checked with d1 buffer into PF) or IAD. Air Heat Vision [26 frame startup/-52 on block/KND on hit/mid] IF HIT: Either tech roll to get up quickly or delayed getup. Regular wakeup risks eating meaty followup lasers IF BLOCKED: At range 0, laser completely whiffs. Can punish with b3 (strict timing) or j3 into 113 PF for ~277 damage. Probably more possible damage on the line but this was I got so far.* IF BLOCKED (2): If blocked at range 1-2, Cyborg can punish with B3 for a full combo punish IF BLOCKED (3): If blocked at full screen, respond with IAFB, or dash to get to range 3-4. This is the sweet spot to zone superman. MB Air Heat Vision [2 frame startup/-17 on block/KND on hit/overhead] IF HIT: Either tech roll to get up quickly or delayed getup. Regular wakeup risks eating meaty followup lasers IF BLOCKED: At range 1 (remember this attack whiffs at range 0), Cyborg is guranteed a free dash in, but gives up his turn in attack. Thus if at range 5-6, you want to dash in to get to range 3-4 to establish the zoning game. Unfortunately you cannot punish this move from my knowledge despite being -17. Lockdown Launch (AKA low scoop) [20 frame startup/-11 on block/KND on hit/low] IF HIT: The MB version of this move makes it launcher, so get comboed. If not meter, (or whatever reason they decide not to MB it), then wakeup with Nova blast. This will check any ground laser follow up. Keep in mind this option can be countered with Air Heat vision, but can then be counter by Cyborg with Up-Nova blast. IF BLOCKED: Can full combo punish with 10 frames or less. Thus 12b2 PF is the ideal punish. If two bars, punish with 11 bounce cancel for more damage. Super breath [21 frame startup/-1 on block/KND on hit/mid] IF HIT: Either tech roll to get up quickly or delayed getup. Regular wakeup risks eating meaty followup lasers. Send Cyborg full screen, so try to work your way back to range 3/4. IF BLOCKED: Can check with a d1, but will trade with Superman's 6 frame d1. Superman will then be +2 (Superman's d1 is +12 while Cyborg is +10). Cyborg is pushed just outside d1 range, so if you walk back (or even stand still), you can whiff punish the d1 follow up. Keep in mind this leaves Cyborg open for a f2 response by Superman, which is then countered by Cyborg's immediate d1 response(completing the yomi cycle). IF BLOCKED (2): If Superman does breath off of any string and follows up with f2, Cyborg can punish by backdashing after breathe and punishing with 12b2 PF. The timing is strict, be sure to practice this! If you are getting standing 2, you are not letting the backdash recover in time. MB Super breath [5 frame startup/-1 on block/Static launching state on hit/mid] IF HIT: Get comboed IF BLOCKED: Has much significant push back. Best response is with d1 buffer into PF to catch a Superman f2 attempt. Cyborg's 23 string is also an option, but due to it's hitbox, can be rather hit and miss vs. the good hitbox of f23. Rising Grab [X frame startup/X on block/X on hit/X] Flying Punch [X frame startup/X on block/X on hit/X] MB Flying Punch [X frame startup/X on block/X on hit/X] Heat Zap [39 frame startup/+9 on block/knockdown on hit/high] IF HIT: Avoid getting hit at all cost!!! This move takes a ton of damages on hit knocks the opponent 2.5 ranges away. Mix up with delay getup and tech roll if hit to avoid meaty follow ups IF BLOCKED: Avoid blocking this move!!! It does a ton of chip damage and is plus meaning Superman has plus frames to continue zoning to deal more damage. IF DUCKED: Punish with d1 PF or d2 IF DUCKED (farther range 2-6): Respond with IAFB. This prevents supes from shooting another heat zap and/or heat vision TRAIT: Unchained Gives superman a damage buff and breaks all armour. Noticable red aurora when active. Trait cancel frame data that must be respected: F23 trait Trait cancel is approximately +1 on block vs. normals and +2 on block vs. reversals. Thus it must be respected if executed perfectly with a follow up f2. At the very least, standing 1 with Cyborg will trade, but the risk reward is not in your favor. The only other safe option Cyborg has is to backdash then block after trait cancel. Cyborg will be able to dodge the follow up f2 but will still have to block the "3" potion of the string. If your able to poke out with 12b2 or a d1 with Cyborg, that means the Superman player was probably going for grab or has bad execution on his frame trap. If you read a grab, your better off neutral jumping and punishing with j2 into 12b2 PF Another common option for Superman is to walkback after trait cancel to whiff punish a counterpoke. Again, you should practically never go for a counterpoke in this situation unless your confident your opponent has bad execution. If you read a grab, backdash (safest option), or neutral jump (if read by superman you get comboed, if successful, Cyborg gets a combo). F2 Trait Trait cancel off this normal is approximately +2 on block vs. reversals and +3 on block vs. normals. Thus a follow up f2 beats all of Cyborg's options. Most Superman players tend to grab here considering they know the opponent is expecting f23 trait cancel. To beat the grab, neutral jump punish, but this is extremely risky considering if they do a f2 follow up you be punished. Standing 3 trait The least common of the trait cancels. It is -2 on block vs. reversals and -1 vs. normals. Thus a well timed d1 (best option) or 12b2 PF will beat out f2. If Superman follows up with d1 (6 frame startup), at the very minimum Cyborg will trade if he does d1. Again, remember d1 into any special by Superman (except rising grab) is full combo punishable with 12b2 EX PF SPECIAL CANCEL GAPS Standing 1* Any special cancelled off this string can be full combo punished except flying grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like 11 into PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 Standing 2* Any special cancelled off this string can be full combo punished except rising grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like 11 into PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 Standing 3* Can only backlash/grapple d1* Any special cancel off of d1 can be interrupted with 12b2 PF except rising grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like 11 into PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 d1 into special is usually done by superman players after f23 xx trait, d1 xx (any special) d2 Any special cancelled off this string can be full combo punished except rising grab 12b2, d1, d2, b12, 23, MB f3/b3, f22 (strict timing) can all interrupt (excluding flying punish and rising grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like b1 12b2 PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 b1* Any special cancelled off this string can be full combo punished except rising grab 12b2, d1, d2, b12, 23, MB f3/b3, f22 (strict timing) can all interrupt (excluding flying punish and rising grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like b1 12b2 PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 f2d1* Any special cancelled off this string can be interrupted with 12b2 PF and d1 except flying grab Flying punch is inconsistent, so a unique punish (like 11 into PF) is needed Can also duck Flying punch and punish with d1/d2 22* Can only backdash/grapple (must do very late) SUPERMOVE Final Flight [6 frame startup/ -6 on block/ 0 on hit/ mid] RANGE: Reaches at all ranges IF BLOCKED: At range zero, the opponent is pushed back to about range 1. Best option is to check with f22. With this, you are +2 and superman can not walk back and whiff punish (although he can dash back and then you can get whiff punished). Other options include d1 buffer into PF (less reliable but can good option select), EX up NB for plus frames and to catch f23 (can be whiff punished but is probably the most safest option), 23 (inconsistent) and b12 (inconsistent). IF BLOCKED (OTHER): Neutral jumping or walking back are also good options to punish a f23 follow up. OTHER: The block stun on this super is relatively long. Thus, it can feel plus but it's not. Be sure to practice the timing of this, it's not something you can just whip out on the fly. OTHER: I wouldn't suggest following up with 23 considering the hitbox of it whiffs on f23 at the range.