A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

Discussion in 'Injustice 2' started by Marinjuana, May 1, 2018.

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  1. Wigy

    Wigy There it is...

    I'm guna say now.

    Grodd is a lot stronger than I thought.

    The patch changes helped him more than I thought. It's hard to tell cause you have these crazy grodd mains who are nuts on him playing vs people who have limited MU experience. (Talking about streams from high level players)

    He could be another cancel sleeper like at the start of mkx with johnny.

    Though on paper he's just a total neutral warrior who will catch you pressing buttons when u shouldn't so he has his limitations against a very defensive player who knows the MU.

    I'd like to see some dragon level blocking and discipline to see how he does.
     
    #351
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  2. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    black adam op therefore grodd loses.
     
    #352
  3. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    Yeah, this tier list is a meme at this point, tho the thread at least is still seeing good discussion from others, seems like a good place to ask match up questions. But hilariously, not to the people who actually made the thread in most cases lol
     
    #353
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  4. wsj515

    wsj515 I will spit on your tomb

    You joke but that's very clearly how a lot of these numbers came to be, for many characters.
     
    #354
    God Confirm likes this.
  5. Braindead

    Braindead High-functioning Scrub

    Dude what the actual fuck

    What happens on Discord STAYS ON DISCORD
     
    #355
  6. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    oh shit is that a rule

    cause im quoting and referencing stuff from discord on here non-stop
     
    #356
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  7. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    ur getting banned friendo
     
    #357
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  8. Wetdoba

    Wetdoba Have I humbled you yet?

    Why do you keep saying Insomniac posted this and he himself should remember every match up off the top of his head? Do you really still not understand how this chart was made?
     
    #358
  9. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    i didnt once say that. If he can't answer the question he can let somebody who was involved answer it, or just.... you know, ask in or search the discord you guys are in to get an answer. Pretty simple, and seems like the entire point of making a match up thread to begin with.

    Instead he's responding to people asking why a number is something with literally "well can you tell me why it isn't??" which is just stupidity, and that's all I responded to.

    You knew this though, as its your second time rewriting what I'm saying, and I'm sure your next response will make it a third, so whatever



    You guys truly deserve the terrible rep this thread got
     
    #359
  10. Wetdoba

    Wetdoba Have I humbled you yet?

    You literally said it (again) in your response claiming you didnt say it so looks like this isnt going anywhere lol
     
    #360
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  11. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    I didn't at any point even imply that he needs to remember every match up reasoning off the head lmao. This is literally why people are saying that you guys are just rewriting these posts lol




    I said he shouldn't demand match up explanations for people to get an answer to a question


    Here's what he should do that to achieve this, that isn't "remembering every match up off top of head"

    If he can't answer the question himself he can
    • ask in the discord you guys are in to get an answer
    • use the search feature in the discord you guys are in to get an answer
    • not respond and let someone who does know the answer respond


    Didn't I just say that a second ago? *glances upwards* yeah I did just say exactly that LOL



    i swear, everytime you think this thread couldn't be more memey you guys go ahead and outdo yourselves
     
    #361
  12. Peckapowa

    Peckapowa Noob

    Well he might dominate the mu but not even instant air to make it 9-1 it's all about tools. Just reminding everyone that's 9-1
     
    #362
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  13. Bleu231

    Bleu231 Tohan playing shotgun

    Very sorry for the late response.

    Previously Bladam was believed to have held a small advantage to Grodd due to his better buttons and consistent answers to leap.
    My current thoughts now are that Bladam's buttons might be the only (small) advantage Bladam holds over Grodd. Stampede Cancels are pretty effective at closing the gap against him, so I do not need to use leap at all unless if I make a read on Low Lightning/Black Magic, if successful he eats a full combo. Not only that, but Bladam seems to have a rather stubby D1, possibly making SC pressure more effective. I'm not sure how good of a mid Adam's B1 is, but if it's not that great then Grodd could check him with secret sweep/D1.

    Overall, I can definitely see this being 5-5, and I agree with it.
     
    #363
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  14. wsj515

    wsj515 I will spit on your tomb

    This makes a lot of sense, I feel like the easiest time I have with Grodd is when the player just hangs themselves doing leaps all game. I think once Grodd gets into sweep range he has total control, like you said his d1 is incredibly short and his b1 is a really bad mid, slow and can be low profiled easily so Adam reaaallly has to respect Grodd's d1.
     
    #364
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  15. Undergroundepict

    Undergroundepict I am like the blue rose

    Thanks, man. If there are any particular MU's you disagree with, feel free to discuss it with me here or on the Superman Discord.


    It's a day of late responses. I said it might be awhile, and I suppose it was, lol. Sorry for the delay, but I was legitimately unavailable to provide a followup.

    So, the Black Adam-Superman MU.

    I (or we) have it as a 6-4 due to:

    - The fact that Superman can't zone. Any MU where Superman can't zone is going to present a problem for him, unless he can make up for it with an overwhelming advantage in the neutral, or in the event his opponent has weak normals that Superman can take advantage of by continuing pressure in scenarios that would otherwise be too risky against most of the cast. Black Adam has great neutral and good normals. The quantitative loss of chip/stray hits/meterbuild that the occasional laser beam or two would usually provide can be felt.

    - When the characters are fullscreen, Black Adam essentially controls the pace of the match with the threat of mb divekicks, which will catch Superman ducking, jumping, or walking forward, and can be used to initiate pressure if blocked, particularly if the divekick is low enough to the ground for Adam's highs to jail. While Superman can a2a divekick attempts for a full combo with j1, this is more of a read one makes when up against divekick happy Adam players than a reaction. It does keep Adam honest, however.

    - The majority of this MU is played in the neutral, with both characters playing a hardcore game of footsies just outside of Superman/Adam's f2/f1 range. The meta is that Superman fishes for an opportunity to apply f23xxtrait/breath pressure, through which he can build meter/connect throws/maybe land a conversion or two if he's lucky, while Adam uses his walkback speed to hunt for whiffed f23's, which he punishes to death with f12.

    -The amount of potential trades that can occur in the f2/f1 footsies scenario are too innumerable to bother listing all of them here, but I will try my best to discern some of the significant ones, in no particular order of importance.

    *As somebody mentioned previously, the mb b3 meta factors heavily into this MU. The second hit of Superman's f23 comes out really slowly, and as such, any f2 attempt is open to being mb b3'd for a full combo. No, this doesn't work when Superman has trait active, but that is irrelevant to us here as this is a means of preventing Superman from getting his pressure started in neutral, not a means of preventing him from continuing pressure after trait activation.

    This doesn't work both ways, as Adam's f12 will armor-break any attempt Superman would make to b3 after breath, if not trait. Not to mention the threat of whiffing if Adam walks back. Due to this, mb b3 attempts by Superman will more often than not be punished inadvertently.

    *Superman's f23 will whiff punish the fuck out of errant d1 attempts by Adam, which Superman can either attempt to force through shimmies or catch inadvertently in the neutral. Due to the stubby nature of Adam's d1, this is a powerful af tool for Superman in the MU. F23xxtrait shimmy/f23 breath shimmy is one of Superman's primary means of opening Adam up midscreen. That said, too much should not be read into this, as Adam has ways of baiting and punishing this as well, such as back-dashing after breath, which will force f23 to whiff and open Superman up to a world of hurt. In the end, it only adds another layer to the MU, but it is one that certainly works out in Superman's favor.


    *Obviously, d1 will catch Black Adam's f12. If the Superman player is gangster, he can convert this into some gnarly b2 combos due to f12 leaving Adam in an airborne state.


    *If Superman breaks too far from the f2/f1 range, Adam can IA divekick in an attempt to either catch him sleeping for a conversion, or an opportunity to initiate pressure.

    *As for meterbuild/the Adam meta vs. the f23 meta, this is where I would contend that Adam wins. Adam has two 6 frame buttons to contest against continuing into f23 trait pressure, which means Superman has to d1 occasionally instead of mindlessly performing f23xxtrait f23xxbreath, which severely hampers meterbuild. Shimmy is also, an option, but Adam's 11 will oftentimes catch it. Meanwhile, Superman's only real option to continue after breath is to shimmy in attempt to catch a d1. Not that good Superman players should attempt to continue pressing buttons more than once every 10-15 times after breath anyways, but Adam's buttons are good enough to catch even the cleverest of Supermen attempting to continue pressure midscreen inadvertently. F12 catching backdash attempts after breath removes another essential layer from Superman's gameplan.

    *Essentially, this means that Adam gets his turn after breath, where yes, he does have the opportunity to continue into more pressure and build more meter than Superman. Superman's optimal scenario on block is f23xxtrait, f23 breath, which builds about half a bar of meter. Adam's optimal scenario is something along the lines of f12/112xxtrait, 112/113, d1xxpalpatine, which builds about 2/3rds of a bar. Moreover, Black Adam's options present him with more opportunities to mix (not implying that Adam is super mix heavy, simply that he has more options to mix than Superman does), and he does significantly more chip damage than Superman overall, which feels buried in a footnote over here, but is actual crucial to the matchup.

    -I originally intended to argue that Black Adam has a slight advantage over Superman in the neutral/footsies department, but now that I read it out loud, it could be argued that the advantage is moderate. Perhaps if I listed everything pertinent to the neutral game between these two, I might come back to the conclusion that the advantage is slight, however. All that aside, the true reason to contend that none of the above Adam advantages matter and the MU is indeed 5-5, if you wanted to argue against me, is...

    - The great equalizer: Adam gets absolutely demolished in the corner. His wakeup can be stuffed essentially on reaction, he's vulnerable to all sorts of reset gimmicks, and his options after f23xxbreath are diminished. Due to the stubby range of his d1, Superman's d1 actually out-ranges his in the corner after breath, meaning his only option is to either hold the next string, or use b3 to armor, which isn't an option if Superman has trait active. I'm going guess that other than that, I don't have to offer too much of an explanation here. Superman demolishes. That said, pushblock mitigates this advantage to a large degree, as Superman essentially has to pin Adam in the corner twice, or blow the pushblock up with a hard read and a bounce cancel (which is the greatest rush a man can experience next to things I won't mention here), but when Adam does get cornered, he is cornered.

    Well, that's my Black Adam-Superman breakdown, and why I ultimately believe the MU is 6-4 in Black Adam's favor. Superman controls the corner game, but Black Adam is in control, at least to some degree, nearly everywhere else on the screen. I should once again note that this MU barely, barely, meets my criteria for a 6-4. If I had to round it down to the decimal point, it would be 5.5-4.5. It's in Adam's favor, but not by much. Ultimately, my decision to even label it 6-4 comes down to the fact that if it is in anybody's favor, it's Adam's, and I feel as though labeling it a 5-5 conveys less information, which doesn't really serve anybody. IME it's one of the most contentious MU's in the entire game and any discussion of it is destined to only go round and round and round. I think at a certain point we have to accept that some will label it 6-4, while others will label it 5-5, and accept both opinions as valid, as they come down more to degrees and how strongly different people rate particular elements, as opposed to genuine contentions of the characters' options in the matchup.
     
    #365
    Last edited: May 16, 2018 at 5:04 AM
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  16. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    F
     
    #366
  17. I have some things to add to further corroborate the 5-5.

    It was initially believed that Black Adam could play defensively and force Grodd to overextend himself. As it turns out, Grodd can more effectively play a defensive game.

    Grodd's D+1 outranges Black Adam's B+2 and B+1, leaving Adam without decent options in the midrange. Black Adam isn't safe doing low lightning or black magic at any range because of the ever-present threat of leap into a full combo. Gorilla Grodd also has the highest damage conversion off a D+2 in the game, making the prospect of jumping at Grodd extremely risky.

    Because Black Adam's F+1,2 and B+2,3 leaves him airborne, a D+1 into B+2 will frequently lead into a full combo.
     
    #367
  18. SaSSolino

    SaSSolino What's even the point without hellsparks?

    PSN:
    SaSSolino9
    Steam:
    SaSSolino
    The hell is Cyborg doing up there? Did he get buffed or something?
     
    #368
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  19. wsj515

    wsj515 I will spit on your tomb

    First, thanks for the write-up. However, your statement that "it's one of the most contentious MU's in the entire game and any discussion of it is destined to only go round and round and round" is a bit of a copout, particularly because I think there are some things you are either overlooking or neglecting. Here's a thesis length response for your thesis length post:

    I already went over why the fact that Superman can't zone is irrelevant to the meter build meta. Both characters are in the exact same boat here, so if you want to talk about Adam building more meter you have to compare their realistic meter build from their buttons. Since this matchup consists of both players trying to space each other out, Superman can absolutely throw out a heat zap every now and again.

    Adam's mb divekick is a threat, but only when he has meter, and Adam desperately needs to hold on to meter if he ever wants to escape getting cornered. 99% of the time, Adam's f1 does not jail after a mb dive kick, he has to predict whether or not you will just hold back or reversal poke. That 1% of the time where f1 jails is incredibly hard to pull off, and even then you can backdash out and f12 will not connect. Backdash twice and full combo punish, as seen here. Oddly enough, if the dive kick is less plus and doesn't jail, f12 will punish a backdash attempt, but its pretty easy to identify if the dive kick is going to jail. There is plenty of risk/reward and guessing in using a mb dive kick, so its not a get-in-free tool. Because Adam values holding meter so much in this matchup combined with the fact that there is legitimate risk/reward and a meta game after a blocked mb dive kick, he cannot realistically just throw out mb dive kicks, so I really don't agree that it dictates the pace of the matchup.

    I don't see why Superman has to be the aggressor as f23 punishes a whiffed f12 just as well, but I don't think that's really important.

    Adam has a little more leeway regarding using mb b3/f3 assuming superman is off trait, but I don't think either character should ever use it outside of specific hard reads to beat pokes, as both characters can "inadvertently" punish the other by just walking back. If Adam is using mb b3 to armor the second hit after the first hit of f23 whiffed then the Superman just simply miss-spaced, and Adam using b3 in attempt to stuff the first hit of f23 is a hard read that can be easily whiff punished considering that Superman was already in f23 range. Saying mb b3 factors heavily is very much hyperbole.

    Good points detailing Superman's pressure/offense midscreen, though I don't think its quite fair to list all these clearly powerful tools Superman has in the matchup and then just write them off by saying that Adam has options to make them not totally autopilot. Adam backdashing after breath is a good option but its not a free out, as Superman can bait and punish with a dash forward f23 or with a flying punch, mb flying punch has so much corner carry that this could be a game winning read. Worth mentioning but less important is that unless Adam has trait, the best punish he can get is d1 lightning hands and the window for the punish is pretty much frame perfect.

    I explained above why I think Adam can't just throw out mb dive kicks, and why its not an automatic initiation tool. However, if he has a lot of meter its definitely a threat to watch for.

    Again, the fact that Adam can stop f23 breath from being autopilot doesn't mean much - the layers of meta/guessing with f23 breath/trait/d1 happen within Adam's offense just as much. You make out the possible ways Adam can stop Superman from pressing buttons or doing his thing to be a serious detraction, but a lot of these options are hard reads that get Adam punished more often than they stop Superman. I can go into each one but I already talked about a lot of them earlier in this thread with Tile. Superman has plenty of ways to keep Adam guessing, and gain more meter/taking extra turns.

    Here you compare both character's optimal meter build sequences, which I don't really think is helpful because they aren't realistic, imo even more so for Adam than Superman. The changes to Adam's trait cancel has really simplified his offense. Every followup to f12 trait can be stuffed with a d1 besides Adam's own d1, and every followup can be backdashed and full combo punished besides f12 (which can be stuffed with a d1). Adam gains the most meter from lightning hands (which ends his turn), and Superman has plenty of options to stop him from using it. F12 trait d1 can be mb b3'ed. D1 lightning hands itself has a gap, which can be poked or mb b3'ed. 112/113 does not guarantee a d1, as it can be backdashed, and a f12 attempt to punish can be d1'ed.

    My point in listing all this is that there are just as many layers of meta game in Adam's offense as Superman's, and there are plenty of opportunities to stop/slow him building meter, the same argument you make for Superman. If we look at the absolute safest options of just f23 breath or f12 trait d1 lightning hands, the meter gain is 7 tics to 9 tics, and that's conveniently forgetting the gap in d1 lightning hands and requiring Adam to have trait. Their meter gain ends up being fairly similar, with imo not a big enough difference to say that Adam earns points in the matchup over meter. Adam does do more chip due to his trait, but his mix potential is about the same as Superman's midscreen as so many of his options are covered by d1 or backdash, and are mostly limited to his 11 strings which are more difficult to access than Superman simply using his advancing mid.

    I think this statement is crazy, see above for why. I have no idea how you could conclude that Adam has a moderate advantage in footsies/neutral.

    Calling Superman's corner game an equalizer implies that Adam dominates somewhere else in the matchup, which is just not true. By no means is Superman fighting on his back foot mid screen - even if you up played Adam's slight advantages by multiple degrees, it would be hard to equalize Superman in the corner. Adam loses the game if he has no meter for push blocking when cornered, but even then he's not out, the situation is just reset. Superman's corner advantage is so strong that it effects how Adam plays when mid screen as he needs to seriously manage his meter.

    I don't understand how you can talk about how hard Adam loses in the corner and still come to the conclusion that its a 6-4, even when upplaying Adam's mid screen game and downplaying Superman's. Even if I took your analysis of the mid screen meta as the truth, the only way you could equate each character's advantages is by saying Superman needs to physically get Adam into the corner. I honestly don't think there's a world where this matchup is a 6-4, or even a 5.5-4.5.
     
    #369
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  20. Cursa

    Cursa Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.

    I don't really see how Black Adam wins either. It looks pretty even steven.

    Whenever I play as Superman I don't find Adam's zoning hard to get past and there is convincing options against dive kick, not to mention Adam doesn't build a terrible amount of meter in the matchup either so even making him waste a bar is an instant win, and if he didn't do it correctly then it's my turn.

    Superman's corner game is incredibly scary if he has the meter, which he may not build it very fast in a MU where he can't zone but he also doesn't have to use it to make himself safe unlike a character like Black Adam who needs to use it on MB low lighting at close range and dive kick for counter zoning. Not to mention Superman's great corner carry which makes this even scarier since one touch mid screen can lead to it, where 1 wrong guess can literally get you killed.

    Black Adam has a slight advantage in the neutral (very slight imo) but Superman's corner game is incredibly scary and he can get there very easily. It's a hard fought neutral battle by both parties. Every counterpoke is a read, Superman is -1 after breath, so Superman could try to backdash if he expects a D1, but Black Adam could F1 instead, but then Superman could try to do a D1 afterwards which would grant him a full combo, but then Adam could just D1, but Adam doesn't get a whole lot off of a D1 unless he has trait (D1xxPalpatine will remain risky forever).
     
    #370
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  21. Undergroundepict

    Undergroundepict I am like the blue rose


    It's not so much a copout as a practical consideration. A reasonable case can be made for either 5-5 or 6-4 in this particular MU, which is reinforced by the fact that the collective Adam and Superman player base is largely split down the middle when it comes to labeling it as a 5-5 or a 6-4, with many players oscillating back and forth between the two themselves.

    I'm not dismissing the validity of further discussion of the MU in general; I am simply arguing that for the purposes of the tier list, our attention should primarily be payed towards MU numbers of ours which are either controversial/contrary to the norms set by other high level players, or the MU's where we may be overtly wrong.
     
    #371
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  22. God Confirm

    God Confirm We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.

    Unbelievable lol. Why is that only coming up now, after he's had to make his case for like ten pages, and now it's "yeah actually our own team of specialists couldnt agreed on this number so we just decided to tell everyone it's a 6-4"? Lmao just like the Flash Cold match up that was actually a losing match up but the team couldn't agree on a number so it got written up as a 5-5? That's two for two now haha, how many more numbers on that chart are just random shit thrown at a dartboard? The more you guys get pressed for answers the worse it gets lol

    Could this thread be any less professional? keep the laughs coming guys
     
    #372
    Last edited: May 17, 2018 at 9:44 AM
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  23. Braindead

    Braindead High-functioning Scrub

    Here are the real Wowo MU numbers (read as Wowo vs X):

    Aquaman: 4-6
    Atom: 4-6
    Atro: 4-6
    Bane:5-5
    Batman: 4-6
    Bladam: 3.5-6.5
    Canary: 5.5-4.5
    Black Manta: 4-6
    Blue Beetle: 3.5-6.5
    Brainiac: 4-6
    Cold: 4-6
    Catwoman: 4-6
    Cheetah: 5-5
    Cyborg: 3-7
    Darkseid: 3-7
    Deadshot: 4-6
    Donnie: 5-5
    Enchantress: 6-4
    Fate: 2.5-7.5
    Firestorm: 4-6
    Flash: 4-6
    Grodd 4-6
    Green Arrow: 3-7
    Green Lantern: 2-8
    Harley: 4-6
    Hellboi: 3.5-6.5
    Joker: 5-5
    Mikey: 4-6
    Leo: 3.5-6.5
    Poison Ivy: 3.5-6.5
    Raiden: 5-5
    Raph: 6-4
    Red Hood: 4-6
    Robin: 5-5
    Scarecrow: 4-6
    Starfire: 3-7
    Subzero: 5.5-4.5
    Supergirl: 4-6
    Superman: 4.5-5.5
    Swamp Thing: 4-6
    Wonder Woman: 3-7


    If you disagree with any of the numbers please tell me your opinion on the MU# and write a full match up break down to explain it. Otherwise I can't be convinced.
     
    #373
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  24. wsj515

    wsj515 I will spit on your tomb

    But I don't really think a reasonable case can actually be made for the 6-4, hence the copout. Like I said, even if you upplayed Adam's mid screen advantage (where again, Superman goes pretty much toe-to-toe) even more than you kinda were, I still think that its completely offset by Superman's domination in the corner.
     
    #374
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  25. Jugghead

    Jugghead I'm not wearing hockey pads
    Premium Supporter

    I talked to one of the Batman reps and the reasons he gave for Batman beating Hellboy were that HB has no real lows so Bats can threaten parry in gaps. Bats can D2 or jump back 1 to try to defend against leap. Grounded footsies is won by Bats with trait. HB can zone some, but can't keep Bats out long. Bats can also bait HB AAs with glide and divekick.

    These reasons all pretty high risk with varying reward for Bats. Parry is high risk low reward. It can set up some mind games later, but that's entirely read based and if HB is just patient he'll punish for big damage, favorable screen placement, and trait usage. HBs leap and cancels are too quick to consistently D2 or jump back 1 on reaction. Jump back 1 won't get Bats much. D2 can lead to combo and reset but is punishable in HBs favor. Bats glide and divekick are punishable but high reward for Bats if successful. Also HB does have a low starter I believe.

    I think the match-up is even and the Batman rep I talked to agreed with me. Bats can have success when he gets in, but HB has a safe invincible wake-up and can get out with leap quickly and go back to this game of zoning, leap, and trait, which Bats has to navigate to get back in.

    I'd be interested in hearing one of the Hellboy reps perspective, or even @Sesal Snow. I could certainty be swayed to believe Bats beats HB, but not for the reasons I was given.
     
    #375
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