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A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Pretty sure the list was a meme.
Yeah not sure on that one. Maybe the wonder woman part since I've seen her played like 0 times. Yungmonster is the only one who comes to mind and that was awhile ago
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Yeah not sure on that one. Maybe the wonder woman part since I've seen her played like 0 times. Yungmonster is the only one who comes to mind and that was awhile ago
Oh, I mean't the one that @Braindead posted in the comments, with WW only winning like 3 matchups and losing most others. Although now you've got me wondering if any part of this endeavor was sincere.
 
Pretty sure the list was a meme. Although it's fair enough, I'm having a bit of a tough time interpreting people's tones on this thread now...
Was the fact that the list mentioned WW going 3-7 against herself not a bit of a clue? :p

Though while on the topic of Raiden... what is it that makes him so bad that he has 4-6 or worse MUs with practically the entire cast? I virtually never fight against him and sometimes even forget that he's a playable character in this game but still.... Is it literally just 'he has the same sort of tools but slightly worse', or there something particularly vital that he's lacking?
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Thread was intended to be serious but they unintentionally made it a meme, just to be clear
 

jcbowie

...more deadly than the dawn.
Was the fact that the list mentioned WW going 3-7 against herself not a bit of a clue? :p

Though while on the topic of Raiden... what is it that makes him so bad that he has 4-6 or worse MUs with practically the entire cast? I virtually never fight against him and sometimes even forget that he's a playable character in this game but still.... Is it literally just 'he has the same sort of tools but slightly worse', or there something particularly vital that he's lacking?
Bad range on his buttons is what I hear complained about the most. He's got the damage but a lot of his better moves are highs and he really doesn't have good footsies. I don't play a ton of Raiden though sooooo I dunno.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Raiders problems?
  • Really below average buttons
  • Extremely terrible dashes, probably the worst forward dash in the entire game
  • F3 is useless as shit on block
  • No good mids basically
  • Trait is kinda alright in the neutral but doesn't last very long at all
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
Tfw ninjas don't know Cheetah whoops GL 3-7. >.>
Let's actually rewind this and approach this like we have some maturity and objectivity.


You mean to tell me that a character that severely out footsies her on the ground and has solid/acceptable air options loses 7-3 to her? At some point we have to stop basing match up numbers on who we lose to and what not. If you wanna zone all match, you might run into some issues but if you use your superior buttons, excellent walk speed and well placed jump normals you really shouldn't be having any major problems with Cheetah.

Let's also be mindful that her wake ups are very stuffable and/or unsafe so you can bully her in footsies AND on knockdown. He has a very solid oki game as well. There's a proper way to fight this character and there's an improper way. If you said 6-4 I could be like okay maybe, but 7-3 implies very lopsided which is absolutely not the case.

He has a five frame reliable jump 1 and a solid down 2 that I have watched anti-air prepatch high level Batman players ONLINE so I know it ain't trash.

If you can reliably anti-air her, outfootsie her and fuck with her on knockdown, there is no rational basis for her to even win really. Her neutral is incredibly weak.


There's no reason for all these petty posts.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Let's actually rewind this and approach this like we have some maturity and objectivity.


You mean to tell me that a character that severely out footsies her on the ground and has solid/acceptable air options loses 7-3 to her? At some point we have to stop basing match up numbers on who we lose to and what not. If you wanna zone all match, you might run into some issues but if you use your superior buttons, excellent walk speed and well placed jump normals you really shouldn't be having any major problems with Cheetah.

Let's also be mindful that her wake ups are very stuffable and/or unsafe so you can bully her in footsies AND on knockdown. He has a very solid oki game as well. There's a proper way to fight this character and there's an improper way. If you said 6-4 I could be like okay maybe, but 7-3 implies very lopsided which is absolutely not the case.

He has a five frame reliable jump 1 and a solid down 2 that I have watched anti-air prepatch high level Batman players ONLINE so I know it ain't trash.

If you can reliably anti-air her, outfootsie her and fuck with her on knockdown, there is no rational basis for her to even win really. Her neutral is incredibly weak.


There's no reason for all these petty posts.
Why is Cheetah caring about GL's footsies? He cannot force her into playing footsies. He cannot reliably chase her down, and the options to stop her from just backdashing are either slow or meter dependent and do not lead to very much of a reward from the ranges Cheetah will abuse leap vs GL. The answers for stopping leap are very difficult, as well, since she can hold it and backdash cancel with very little risk, all the while baiting out GL's anti-leap options.

d2 is not trash, but it is not amazing, and requires you to hit in the later active frames for clean anti-airs. j1 is an answer for leap as well, but unless you're jumping forward and/or have a bar, the reward for it is not deterring Cheetah. It is MUCH easier said than done controlling Cheetah in neutral with GL.

Also, Cheetah is one of a handful of characters who can reversal backdash both of b1's string gaps, as well as punish GL for doing 2231.

She does very, very well vs GL overall. No offense to any Cheetah out there, but Revet and Alca are the only 2 Cheetah players playing the matchup to exploit GL's own problems and his lack of a consistent and rewarding answer for what Cheetah will do. From my own experiences, of course. Revet even agrees with me on it when we talked about it.
 

Cursa

Counterpoke with armoured DB2 at all times.
Why is Cheetah caring about GL's footsies? He cannot force her into playing footsies. He cannot reliably chase her down, and the options to stop her from just backdashing are either slow or meter dependent and do not lead to very much of a reward from the ranges Cheetah will abuse leap vs GL. The answers for stopping leap are very difficult, as well, since she can hold it and backdash cancel with very little risk, all the while baiting out GL's anti-leap options.

d2 is not trash, but it is not amazing, and requires you to hit in the later active frames for clean anti-airs. j1 is an answer for leap as well, but unless you're jumping forward and/or have a bar, the reward for it is not deterring Cheetah. It is MUCH easier said than done controlling Cheetah in neutral with GL.

Also, Cheetah is one of a handful of characters who can reversal backdash both of b1's string gaps, as well as punish GL for doing 2231.

She does very, very well vs GL overall. No offense to any Cheetah out there, but Revet and Alca are the only 2 Cheetah players playing the matchup to exploit GL's own problems and his lack of a consistent and rewarding answer for what Cheetah will do. From my own experiences, of course. Revet even agrees with me on it when we talked about it.
Sounds more like a 6-4 if everything you say is true.

7-3 is like pre-patch Bane v pre-nerf Batman, or Superman
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
Why is Cheetah caring about GL's footsies? He cannot force her into playing footsies. He cannot reliably chase her down, and the options to stop her from just backdashing are either slow or meter dependent and do not lead to very much of a reward from the ranges Cheetah will abuse leap vs GL. The answers for stopping leap are very difficult, as well, since she can hold it and backdash cancel with very little risk, all the while baiting out GL's anti-leap options.

d2 is not trash, but it is not amazing, and requires you to hit in the later active frames for clean anti-airs. j1 is an answer for leap as well, but unless you're jumping forward and/or have a bar, the reward for it is not deterring Cheetah. It is MUCH easier said than done controlling Cheetah in neutral with GL.

Also, Cheetah is one of a handful of characters who can reversal backdash both of b1's string gaps, as well as punish GL for doing 2231.

She does very, very well vs GL overall. No offense to any Cheetah out there, but Revet and Alca are the only 2 Cheetah players playing the matchup to exploit GL's own problems and his lack of a consistent and rewarding answer for what Cheetah will do. From my own experiences, of course. Revet even agrees with me on it when we talked about it.

Why is Green Lantern caring about her running away like she has projectile zoning to chip him from a distance? I dunno, a lot of the leap concerns are mostly generated via online from what I gather since latency makes certain things stronger. Everyone has to make reads based on her leap/leap cancels and his options work reliably just because it doesn't 90% shut it down doesn't make it whatever. It's nothing specific to Green Lantern in that regard of making those reads.


The only Green Lantern specific thing is back dashing the string gaps, but she has no RANGE to punish you or start a mix up on you so.....why is that even something to talk about? Maybe if she got a true mix up or a punish this might be some big deal, but she doesn't.

You can back dash most of her strings minus a few and back dash/jump out of her 50/50 command grabs and unlike in this back dash situation actually get damage so should I make a big deal of that?


Why are you saying no offense? We have never played so the statement is pointless and just a silly discrediting tactic and making match up arguments based on some strange appeal to authority for someone who lists Cheetah winning as many match ups as Martian Manhunter did in Injustice 1 is like oh okay....someone else agrees so it's true.


The core point is nothing you have stated in any way shape or form is indicative of 7-3. I'm open minded enough to entertain 6-4 , but 7-3 is so out of pocket and nonsensical.

As a matter of fact, I will meet you half way and suggest a change to 6-4.
 

DTruth

Noob
As a GL player I take the matchup as 6-4 GL. GL controls the space well. 2/3 of the screen I feel GL simply owns. Cheetah cant really leap in from to far or she will get sniped out. If Cheetah gets in she can do her thing but its not hard to reset the situation.

Until I played Espio I swore the matchup was 7-3 GL.
 

Jugghead

Noob
Ok so It has been awhile since I have posted much and since I have consistently played because I am busy irl.
From what I have been playing the mu feels even to me.

Now first of all Hellboy doe's have a low his b1 however it does not lead to a combo. Most of the time Hellboy's will use the full b1 string for a safe string on block I think its like -2-3 or something can't remember. Other options are to do b12 into leap for the cross up setups etc. He can also do b1 bounce cancel into f3 for the low overhead mix but this is extremely react-able.
Now with leap I do believe it can be reacted to at full and mid screen but up close I feel that's where it gets tricky because up close he will be cancelling into leap or into the + charge or maybe staggering a string etc. Now from my xp playing Hellboy and against him most people will react to the initial dash in the leap that helps them ant air Hellboy especially when they see it cancelled off a string. Now Hellboy's normally bait this by doing a mid range leap over the opponent into a raw Fist of doom cancel instead of the air dash cancel to bait out a button press and whiff punish the opponent trying to anti air. So from my xp when it comes to close range with leap cancels its all about reading what you think your opponent is going to do and that's for both of the players.
But leap can be reacted to full screen for sure. Its also worth mentioning that Hellboy can make a read against a projectile full screen for a punish.

As for Hellboy's wake up it can actually be stuffed pretty consistent with many string/specials even against players that have no experience I have been d1'ed out of my wakeup many many times and against a experienced player I have even been full combo-ed.

The zoning game feels pretty even to me as well if bats gets his trait out then of course he has an advantage to get in or zone some more etc but this is also a good opportunity for Hellboy to trait up with armour to counter this causing a stale mate.

So this is kind of my synopsis I think that the mu is even they both hit hard and have nice setups for the other to deal with their zoning feels even and both their wakeups have flaws being either horrible frames or it can be stuffed.
I hope that this shed's some light and that I touched on each option (Kinda wrote this up really quick) as I said have not played nearly as much as I did in the past I do plan on coming back to the game though.
One thing I will say is if you really want a detailed opinion I would ask @SylverRye as he is a Batman and Hellboy player who is in the competitive scene and has a crap ton experience than a filthy casual like me.
Thanks for the reply @Sesal Snow !

I didn't know you could stuff HB's wake-up. I assume its something that has to be timed right and a move that low profiles, or something like that. Any insight would be much appreciated.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except I think HB has the upper hand in zoning because when Bats has trait he shouldn't be throwing batarangs. He can easily be punished and lose them from HB's pistol. I don't think there's much of a zoning a game for Bats in the match-up.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Why is Green Lantern caring about her running away like she has projectile zoning to chip him from a distance? I dunno, a lot of the leap concerns are mostly generated via online from what I gather since latency makes certain things stronger. Everyone has to make reads based on her leap/leap cancels and his options work reliably just because it doesn't 90% shut it down doesn't make it whatever. It's nothing specific to Green Lantern in that regard of making those reads.


The only Green Lantern specific thing is back dashing the string gaps, but she has no RANGE to punish you or start a mix up on you so.....why is that even something to talk about? Maybe if she got a true mix up or a punish this might be some big deal, but she doesn't.

You can back dash most of her strings minus a few and back dash/jump out of her 50/50 command grabs and unlike in this back dash situation actually get damage so should I make a big deal of that?


Why are you saying no offense? We have never played so the statement is pointless and just a silly discrediting tactic and making match up arguments based on some strange appeal to authority for someone who lists Cheetah winning as many match ups as Martian Manhunter did in Injustice 1 is like oh okay....someone else agrees so it's true.


The core point is nothing you have stated in any way shape or form is indicative of 7-3. I'm open minded enough to entertain 6-4 , but 7-3 is so out of pocket and nonsensical.

As a matter of fact, I will meet you half way and suggest a change to 6-4.
The problem with Cheetah running away isn't the chip she doesn't have. It's the fact that GL's options to threaten from those ranges do not reward nearly the same as what leap can do to me for attempting them. 7-15%-ish on projectiles vs 30-70% on one leap over something. Making it risky to use those options really hampers GL's presence from afar vs her. You have to chase her as GL, as the risk-reward is not at all in his favor, and he does not come close to being able to really catch her and pin her down.

Yes, I have answers. I'm not saying they have to be completely effective at shutting her down. The issue is that they are read-based in a situation where the risk-rewards are definitely not in GL's favor.

My statement on no offense wasn't meant to offend, obviously, and I'm not trying to discredit, though I get why you feel that way. Just I never really saw Cheetah players abusing this vs GL whenever I played them, and I knew it was a problem before even playing those two. Seemed odd that a character that, in a way, can do the same stuff Batman does vs GL, is only at an even matchup vs him.
 

RevetLeafing

Tanya, Tanqui, and Kaprisun Specialist
As a GL player I take the matchup as 6-4 GL. GL controls the space well. 2/3 of the screen I feel GL simply owns. Cheetah cant really leap in from to far or she will get sniped out. If Cheetah gets in she can do her thing but its not hard to reset the situation.

Until I played Espio I swore the matchup was 7-3 GL.
We should play soon. I would like to show you how I approach the mu and why I think it is actually in Cheetah's favor.

I'm not really about talking mu's over this site but i'm definitely willing to describe it in a party or something lol. I say one thing about Cheetah winning a mu on here and i'll have a whole mob bashing me for sharing my opinion.

Reply ASAP
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
We should play soon. I would like to show you how I approach the mu and why I think it is actually in Cheetah's favor.

I'm not really about talking mu's over this site but i'm definitely willing to describe it in a party or something lol. I say one thing about Cheetah winning a mu on here and i'll have a whole mob bashing me for sharing my opinion.

Reply ASAP
ASAP