Strategy - Hellfire So, time we had a discussion about Hellfire

[Zionix]

At least specops armor is fairly safe on whiff. You aren't comprehending any of this are you.

I read your arguments about meter usage and I think they're exaggerated.

Ok you only mentioned b32f2 in your previous post. I'm not going to comb through Cassie forums so if you're going to make a point maybe you should put in a little more effort.

So besides that, yea Scorp's b3 has some decent guessing games attached. Scorp thrives off of defensive reads and momentum and some characters have an easy time getting through his defense which is a problem for him since his armor sucks. He also has a tough time chasing characters down and doing damage if he needs to make a comeback since he can't use cancels to layer his offense because you typically need to use run meter to get in.

Those weaknesses were why he's probably not in the top 5, but still probably top 10. He's good. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Hellfire is an extremely high execution character. Nearly all of the flaws you mention can be overcome with player skill.

To say he has a hard time coming back is an absolute personal issue for you or whoever you are basing your opinion on. He needs 1 hit/mistake from the opponent to make huge comebacks and with hellfire up at the end of a combo can do some great chip out damage.

His armor can be baited and made to whiff but that means you've been baited, made an error and been punished for it. Ultimately at 11 frames the opponent cannot react to it and if they go for pressure then it stops them in their tracks.

If you want bad armor; d'vorah, quan, hqt, shirai ryu, killer, spec ops, cage, possibly jax all have worse armors but they can still be used at the right time and be made to work.

You could argue about top 5/top 10 on this game for days. Its a tough call. On paper, hellfire ticks alot of boxes, so he does have a very strong case to be around the top of the list.

 

[Tweedy]

The point of B3 flame aura is to catch people who are blocking well, when they try to quickly poke B3 fbrc.

It's good shit but only Raptor has used it vs me.

 

[SpecOps2013]

At least specops armor is fairly safe on whiff. You aren't comprehending any of this are you.

I read your arguments about meter usage and I think they're exaggerated.

Ok you only mentioned b32f2 in your previous post. I'm not going to comb through Cassie forums so if you're going to make a point maybe you should put in a little more effort.

So besides that, yea Scorp's b3 has some decent guessing games attached. Scorp thrives off of defensive reads and momentum and some characters have an easy time getting through his defense which is a problem for him since his armor sucks. He also has a tough time chasing characters down and doing damage if he needs to make a comeback since he can't use cancels to layer his offense because you typically need to use run meter to get in.

Those weaknesses were why he's probably not in the top 5, but still probably top 10. He's good. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

Erm......

Keep in mind he is not even a hellfire main.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Lets not also forget how flame aura cannot be poked out if whiffs, just forget this option.

 

[IrishMantis]

The point of B3 flame aura is to catch people who are blocking well, when they try to quickly poke B3 fbrc.

It's good shit but only Raptor has used it vs me.

Interesting idea

He must of just started doing that.
Nice bait idea

Another option Scorp can do is B3 FBRC block and can still hit confirm it like Alist 113SKRC

I also do s similiar thing where I do 113 Ex NP to catch people poking the minus frames.

The clever player traps is what I call them

Also I'm pretty convinced Glsme Aura is still active like 2-3 frames when Scorpion can move after doing flame Aura such as poke or jumping
Edit: maybe not but he is at least active during the entire recovery

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Hellfire is an extremely high execution character. Nearly all of the flaws you mention can be overcome with player skill.

To say he has a hard time coming back is an absolute personal issue for you or whoever you are basing your opinion on. He needs 1 hit/mistake from the opponent to make huge comebacks and with hellfire up at the end of a combo can do some great chip out damage.

His armor can be baited and made to whiff but that means you've been baited, made an error and been punished for it. Ultimately at 11 frames the opponent cannot react to it and if they go for pressure then it stops them in their tracks.

If you want bad armor; d'vorah, quan, hqt, shirai ryu, killer, spec ops, cage, possibly jax all have worse armors but they can still be used at the right time and be made to work.

You could argue about top 5/top 10 on this game for days. Its a tough call. On paper, hellfire ticks alot of boxes, so he does have a very strong case to be around the top of the list.

You aren't getting it. You can not get launched by Scorpion if you just sit there full screen and play smart defense. Just don't run in, don't jump in, don't throw a projectile . Don't subject yourself to his deadliest weapons. He has to use run meter to get in. If he doesn't have run meter he doesn't have some of his best offensive weapons cause he won't have FB cancels.

It's that simple. You don't know how to take advantage of Scorpion's weaknesses. You clearly don't know the matchup and that's why you lose to him.

D'Vorah and Quan are the only ones you listed that might have worse armor than Scorp. All those other armor moves you listed are way better on whiff than takedown. I've repeated this like 5x in this thread but typical TYM nobody wants to actually listen. Congrats for being part of the problem.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Erm......

Keep in mind he is not even a hellfire main.

Michelangelo made huge mistake by trying to zone Scorp too much. You're bound to get hit by EX tele eventually and then Scorp can hit with with a storm of offense and momentum if you don't have good Scorp defense which he clearly didn't.

See my argument in the post above. If you make Scorp come to you, he's very limited on how much damage he can unleash on you. You don't get to post one vid of Scorp doing a comeback to someone who doesn't know how to manipulate his weaknesses and say it's not weakness.

 

[SpecOps2013]

Michelangelo made huge mistake by trying to zone Scorp too much. You're bound to get hit by EX tele eventually and then Scorp can hit with with a storm of offense and momentum if you don't have good Scorp defense which he clearly didn't.

See my argument in the post above. If you make Scorp come to you, he's very limited on how much damage he can unleash on you. You don't get to post one vid of Scorp doing a comeback to someone who doesn't know how to manipulate his weaknesses and say it's not weakness.

Not sure what u meant by smart defense in ur last post, but hellfire has plenty of options to open u up from full screen. He not only has ex tp, but he has cancelled tp which although cost stamina like what u said, closes the gap instantly. Not to mention he is only minus like 1 or 2 frames and can get a d1 or if u r expecting a non cancelled tp, he can throw u. Ex spear from full screen is still a thing and he can still harass u with the unblockable hellfire from fullscreen. Although he has no run meter after a cancelled tp, b3~ex spear,f4~aura and f2 are still a thing and he can also grab u or do staggers.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Not sure what u meant by smart defense in ur last post, but hellfire has plenty of options to open u up from full screen. He not only has ex tp, but he has cancelled tp which although cost stamina like what u said, closes the gap instantly. Not to mention he is only minus like 1 or 2 frames and can get a d1 or if u r expecting a non cancelled tp, he can throw u. Ex spear from full screen is still a thing and he can still harass u with the unblockable hellfire from fullscreen. Although he has no run meter after a cancelled tp, b3~ex spear,f4~aura and f2 are still a thing and he can also grab u or do staggers.

Smart defense means not getting hit by the things you listed lol. If you are playing smart defense you aren't going to get hit by ex tele or ex spear. Yea Scorp can close the gap at the expense of run meter, but the worst threat is b3 ex spear at that point. When in doubt, block low and react to f4.

 

[Zionix]

You aren't getting it. You can not get launched by Scorpion if you just sit there full screen and play smart defense. Just don't run in, don't jump in, don't throw a projectile . Don't subject yourself to his deadliest weapons. He has to use run meter to get in. If he doesn't have run meter he doesn't have some of his best offensive weapons cause he won't have FB cancels.

It's that simple. You don't know how to take advantage of Scorpion's weaknesses. You clearly don't know the matchup and that's why you lose to him.

D'Vorah and Quan are the only ones you listed that might have worse armor than Scorp. All those other armor moves you listed are way better on whiff than takedown. I've repeated this like 5x in this thread but typical TYM nobody wants to actually listen. Congrats for being part of the problem.

You can't argue with a guy who is downplaying an 11 frame, low, 2 hit armor. If you are whiffing it, you deserve to be punished dude.

The perfect answer for Hell-fire guys 'put your controller down'. We have been so stupid all along, how dare we play our characters and use our tools to close games only to be punished by scorpion, how could we be so naive. We just sit there and wait the timer out, so obvious.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

You can't argue with a guy who is downplaying an 11 frame, low, 2 hit armor. If you are whiffing it, you deserve to be punished dude.

The perfect answer for Hell-fire guys 'put your controller down'. We have been so stupid all along, how dare we play our characters and use our tools to close games only to be punished by scorpion, how could we be so naive. We just sit there and wait the timer out, so obvious.

You can't argue with a guy who thinks whiffing an armor move that takes 58 frames to recover is better than say Cage's armor which recovers in 17. Or Specs Ops which recovers in 10. Or Predator's which is 22. When they whiff their armor, they rarely get punished. Yet Scorpion does. Somehow that isn't registering for you and it's getting sad.

Uh and yea sometimes that actually is the best way to fight against Hellfire is to let him come to you. The mind is the greatest weapon. Not your character's tools. Funny how you were advocating that yourself last post but you are the one that doesn't practice what you preach.

 

[LaidbackOne]

You can't argue with a guy who thinks whiffing an armor move that takes 58 frames to recover is better than say Cage's armor which recovers in 17. Or Specs Ops which recovers in 10. Or Predator's which is 22. When they whiff their armor, they rarely get punished. Yet Scorpion does. Somehow that isn't registering for you and it's getting sad.

Uh and yea sometimes that actually is the best way to fight against Hellfire is to let him come to you. The mind is the greatest weapon. Not your character's tools. Funny how you were advocating that yourself last post but you are the one that doesn't practice what you preach.

Ok, your theory talk sounds really interesting. I woulld love to see the outcome after you put it into practice against a decent hellfire tho.

 

[Zionix]

You can't argue with a guy who thinks whiffing an armor move that takes 58 frames to recover is better than say Cage's armor which recovers in 17. Or Specs Ops which recovers in 10. Or Predator's which is 22. When they whiff their armor, they rarely get punished. Yet Scorpion does. Somehow that isn't registering for you and it's getting sad.

Uh and yea sometimes that actually is the best way to fight against Hellfire is to let him come to you. The mind is the greatest weapon. Not your character's tools. Funny how you were advocating that yourself last post but you are the one that doesn't practice what you preach.

You think you're so clever.

Cage armor is a high - Neutral duck full combo punish.

Cassie's armor 1-hit, is full combo punish on block and can be baited to whiff on up kick and down kick and full combo punished whether blocked or whiffed on second part (just step back).

Predator (scimitar slam) slow start-up, 1 hit armor, full combo punishable- Just armor break on wake-up or block for full punish.

Whiffing isn't the only downside to armor, weaknesses can come in many forms for the opponent to abuse. Any other moves you want to discuss?

Also while you're standing there waiting for scorpion to come in, he is trying to make you jump by using hellfire or when he is approaching or you approach him he is fishing hard with D4 which is his ticket in and creates a good space between you. Not to mention the mind games with d4-aura and how strong his jump ins are with Jp3.

 

[YUZU_RZA]

This post is fun, let me get my popcorn

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

You think you're so clever.

Cage armor is a high - Neutral duck full combo punish.

Cassie's armor 1-hit, is full combo punish on block and can be baited to whiff on up kick and down kick and full combo punished whether blocked or whiffed on second part (just step back).

Predator (scimitar slam) slow start-up, 1 hit armor, full combo punishable- Just armor break on wake-up or block for full punish.

Whiffing isn't the only downside to armor, weaknesses can come in many forms for the opponent to abuse. Any other moves you want to discuss?

Also while you're standing there waiting for scorpion to come in, he is trying to make you jump by using hellfire or when he is approaching or you approach him he is fishing hard with D4 which is his ticket in and creates a good space between you. Not to mention the mind games with d4-aura and how strong his jump ins are with Jp3.

The more you argue the more you will prove my point so lets just keep going.

Yes, you neutral duck Cage's armor to punish it. That's because it's unpunishable on block. So you only have 1 way to punish his armor. Whereas with Scorp there is 2; Block it or jump to make it whiff.

Cassie's is punishable on block from afar and punishable on whiff up close. From both distances you are technically forced to block at one point or the other since there are two parts to it. You can't jump around and make it whiff like Takedown. So again, technically still 1 way to punish the armor vs. Scorpions 2 ways.

Predator's is punishable on block and only 1 hit of armor so there are 2 options to blow it up like Scorp's. I would argue the utility of it being a launcher if it connects gives it an edge though. But this is the only only armor move you've listed which has a legit argument of MAYBE being worse than Scorp's. And it's very debatable since it has more utility.

And thanks for proving my point yet again about letting Scorp come to you. Yes if you are sitting back you might eat an 8% hellfire, (which is very risky) or a 4% d4 which doesn't guaranteed any follow-up since it doesn't give him enough frames for a guaranteed follow-up. And he won't run meter to cancel his d4 to get a guaranteed follow-up since he has to use the run meter to get in.

My whole argument was that Scorpion cannot launch you and has to settle with low damage 50/50's, pokes and throws if you make him come to you which thwarts his explosiveness for comebacks.

This just proves you have no idea what I'm saying and you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Yer_Da]

This is getting pretty ridiculous now.

This character is awesome (I'm not demanding nerfs) and you can know the matchup all you want but he commands a ton of respect - Murko and Raptor have shown that.

Yes, he may have his shortcomings (most characters do) but his explosive comeback potential and mobility, while being his biggest strengths, are not his only redeeming qualities. He's one of the few characters who can pressure you anywhere onscreen without pressing a button - he dares you to make a move and if you do, a third of your life is gone.

Playing defensively is all well and good, saying he only has low damaging 50/50's and throws, if he has to come, in is all well and good but a guess is a guess and Hellfire can do a lot more than most if you guess wrong, and still has a variety of options to ensure you won't turtle.

 

[IrishMantis]

Coming from a guy who got 10-0d from Murko recently the only nerf I'd want is his fame Aura to have actual recover that can you know.... whiff punish

 

[SpecOps2013]

The more you argue the more you will prove my point so lets just keep going.

Yes, you neutral duck Cage's armor to punish it. That's because it's unpunishable on block. So you only have 1 way to punish his armor. Whereas with Scorp there is 2; Block it or jump to make it whiff.

Cassie's is punishable on block from afar and punishable on whiff up close. From both distances you are technically forced to block at one point or the other since there are two parts to it. You can't jump around and make it whiff like Takedown. So again, technically still 1 way to punish the armor vs. Scorpions 2 ways.

Predator's is punishable on block and only 1 hit of armor so there are 2 options to blow it up like Scorp's. I would argue the utility of it being a launcher if it connects gives it an edge though. But this is the only only armor move you've listed which has a legit argument of MAYBE being worse than Scorp's. And it's very debatable since it has more utility.

And thanks for proving my point yet again about letting Scorp come to you. Yes if you are sitting back you might eat an 8% hellfire, (which is very risky) or a 4% d4 which doesn't guaranteed any follow-up since it doesn't give him enough frames for a guaranteed follow-up. And he won't run meter to cancel his d4 to get a guaranteed follow-up since he has to use the run meter to get in.

My whole argument was that Scorpion cannot launch you and has to settle with low damage 50/50's, pokes and throws if you make him come to you which thwarts his explosiveness for comebacks.

This just proves you have no idea what I'm saying and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Lol if u jump on scorp on wakeup he can also ex tp and get a full combo. It's pretty yolo and is a hard read but it's an option the opponent has to respect. Furthermore, ex tp leaves the screen really fast. And no Scorpion does not have low damaging 50/50s. I understand u mean b32f2 and f2 when u say that but don't downplay f4~aura and b3~fbc. Yes f4 is slow and can be fuzzied but many top players still get hit by f4 when they are not ready to fuzzy it. And scorpion can bully u with d4 to make u wanna block low and b4 u know it, bam f4~aura into a 40%+ combo and a very plus restand.

 

[SpecOps2013]

btw I think all of u should give @JINAMOUNAINAI some credit as a very good EU hellfire. He has beaten Murko multiple times in mirrors.

 

[shura30]

B3~Flame Aura doesn't even link mid screen....

ok I did some testing myself

midscreen it could be a gimmick as tweedy said to catch people trying to get back at b3xxfbc BUT

in the corner it's where the fun begins thanks to mkx engine, breathing hitboxes and paulo
spend a few minutes then post again your thoughts

btw I think all of u should give @JINAMOUNAINAI some credit as a very good EU hellfire. He has beaten Murko multiple times in mirrors.

Jin is a very strong player but murko is the one guy that right now is the face of the character
despite him winning or losing (he's winning tbh) his gameplan and tool usage is really showing that hellfire has been slept on this whole time only because he's behind an high execution wall

once it's past that it's not even fun to watch him play
he basically switch mkx to a single player game

 

[SpecOps2013]

Jin is a very strong player but murko is the one guy that right now is the face of the character
despite him winning or losing (he's winning tbh) his gameplan and tool usage is really showing that hellfire has been slept on this whole time only because he's behind an high execution wall

once it's past that it's not even fun to watch him play
he basically switch mkx to a single player game

Perhaps. Too bad Jin is busy or smth and hasnt touched mkx in a long time. I do believe Jin is a better hellfire due to his h2h record with murko.....

 

[Wigy]

You can't argue with a guy who thinks whiffing an armor move that takes 58 frames to recover is better than say Cage's armor which recovers in 17. Or Specs Ops which recovers in 10. Or Predator's which is 22. When they whiff their armor, they rarely get punished. Yet Scorpion does. Somehow that isn't registering for you and it's getting sad.

Uh and yea sometimes that actually is the best way to fight against Hellfire is to let him come to you. The mind is the greatest weapon. Not your character's tools. Funny how you were advocating that yourself last post but you are the one that doesn't practice what you preach.

Johnny u can just spam poke and he has 0 options.

Scorpion at least has options.

Lets not downplay how teleport can be used as a wakeup.

 

[kelevra]

Coming from a guy who got 10-0d from Murko recently the only nerf I'd want is his fame Aura to have actual recover that can you know.... whiff punish

Well you lost at the character select screen dude. Hellfire does everything a-list does but better.
Not disrespecting murko tho because his hellfire is incredible.

 

[STRYKIE]

Coming from a guy who got 10-0d from Murko recently the only nerf I'd want is his fame Aura to have actual recover that can you know.... whiff punish

Can't Stunt Double effectively whiff punish it with a raw MRS?

ok I did some testing myself

midscreen it could be a gimmick as tweedy said to catch people trying to get back at b3xxfbc BUT

in the corner it's where the fun begins thanks to mkx engine, breathing hitboxes and paulo
spend a few minutes then post again your thoughts

Well I guess if you have them in the corner without Flame Aura activated yet and you don't have full stamina ready then yeah why not.

 

[IrishMantis]

Well you lost at the character select screen dude. Hellfire does everything a-list does but better.
Not disrespecting murko tho because his hellfire is incredible.

Nah I played like absalutely trash and he outplayed me.... bad day

I'm usually not that free

I feel HF wins but 6-4 nothing unbeatable